Pierce, Ray and J. Green

[CelticsFanNC]

As far as max    put eddie pickney on that team and its about a wash.  I still can't understand why maxwell's number is retired.  He was a solid player on horrible celtic teams, a role player on bird teams and shipped out and replaced easy enough.

  Agree with you on this completely.  He was very good on a horrible Celtics team in his rookie season, was a role player riding Bird, Parish and Archiblad's coat tails on a few great Celtics teams.  He probably shouldn't have his number retired.  He was never better then the 4th best player on any Celtics team after his rookie season.  Yes he had a great run in the 1981 NBA Finals but he was never even seriously considered as an All-Star while Tiny, Chief and Bird all made multiple All-Star appearances during those same few years.  G

  He was good but not great.

[TitleMaster]

As far as max    put eddie pickney on that team and its about a wash.  I still can't understand why maxwell's number is retired.  He was a solid player on horrible celtic teams, a role player on bird teams and shipped out and replaced easy enough.

  Agree with you on this completely.  He was very good on a horrible Celtics team in his rookie season, was a role player riding Bird, Parish and Archiblad's coat tails on a few great Celtics teams.  He probably shouldn't have his number retired.  He was never better then the 4th best player on any Celtics team after his rookie season.  Yes he had a great run in the 1981 NBA Finals but he was never even seriously considered as an All-Star while Tiny, Chief and Bird all made multiple All-Star appearances during those same few years.  G

  He was good but not great.

Folks, I don't concur with your assessment of Max. He was a vector cross product of a Tony Allen. Leon Powe, and James Posey. His contributions in taking Worthy, out of the '84 finals, was the catalyst which lead to the famous "Hop On My Back" game 7 finale. Without him (and of course Henderson's steal), the Lakers win it that year.

We actually never replaced him, as Walton only gave one year to the C's. All and all, our crafty defender/scorer was missing, starting in '85 (see the genesis of 'Big Game' James Worthy), and was one of the reasons why KC needed to play all the starters, all of the time, ever since then.

[wdleehi]

Some really great well thought out points CelticsFanNC. Tommy point to you.

KG - 35 this year?
Ray - 36 this year?
Paul - 34 this year?

Yeah, I'd say it's about time to start transitioning. As you said CeltsFanNC, we were desperately lacking in the athleticism department at the 2/3 spots last year. Dwayne Wade practically had a layup line against Ray last playoffs.

This is no knock on Ray and Paul - both are still incredibly productive at their positions, especially when considering their age.

HOWEVER, at some point might it be a good time to start taking the load off and realistically looking at the future and starting to transition to that future now. Or should we keep carting the big three out there for the next 2-3 seasons, when they'll be 39, 38 and 37 respectively.

This doesn't mean you have to take the reigns away form them or give the reigns to anyone else.

1. Let the young guys carry more of the heavy load throughout the season and if they've earned it throughout the playoffs.

2. Because they are pros, Pierce, Ray and KG will remain money when we need it.

Regular Season
KG - 25-30 minutes
Ray - 28-32 minutes
Pierce - 30-33 minutes

Save their legs for the when it matters.

Load up on Green, Rondo, and any other young legs we have and as much as we can during the regular season.

Young guys get better faster
Old guys stay fresher and more effective longer

Win - win...

As Manlui said, Pierce and ray could remain starters as long as their minutes are reduced.

Green could also make his goal to be sixth man of the year.

As long as we stop grinding the big three into the ground all season - I'm on board.     

Either the team goes for it, or they blow up to rebuild.



Straddling the fence does neither.





And we are not talking about replacing Pierce with a future cornerstone player. 

This is replacing Pierce with a role player. 

[CelticsFanNC]

As far as max    put eddie pickney on that team and its about a wash.  I still can't understand why maxwell's number is retired.  He was a solid player on horrible celtic teams, a role player on bird teams and shipped out and replaced easy enough.

  Agree with you on this completely.  He was very good on a horrible Celtics team in his rookie season, was a role player riding Bird, Parish and Archiblad's coat tails on a few great Celtics teams.  He probably shouldn't have his number retired.  He was never better then the 4th best player on any Celtics team after his rookie season.  Yes he had a great run in the 1981 NBA Finals but he was never even seriously considered as an All-Star while Tiny, Chief and Bird all made multiple All-Star appearances during those same few years.  G

  He was good but not great.

Folks, I don't concur with your assessment of Max. He was a vector cross product of a Tony Allen. Leon Powe, and James Posey. His contributions in taking Worthy, out of the '84 finals, was the catalyst which lead to the famous "Hop On My Back" game 7 finale. Without him (and of course Henderson's steal), the Lakers win it that year.

We actually never replaced him, as Walton only gave one year to the C's. All and all, our crafty defender/scorer was missing, starting in '85 (see the genesis of 'Big Game' James Worthy), and was one of the reasons why KC needed to play all the starters, all of the time, ever since then.

 He never really filled the role of key reserve(the role Walton played) due to injuries  and a declining game.  His most significant contributions to the early 80's title teams were as the teams 4th best of 5  starters not as a reserve.  I do think he was easily replaced in his most significant role....by Kevin McHale.  Everything Max could do, McHale could do quite a bit better.

  I feel like he was a very good role player on a great team who happened to be in the right place at the right time in the 1981 Finals.  He did have a good 1984 Finals but his game was already in decline by that point and injuries took care of teh rest of his career soon there after.  I don't think that warrants having his number retired and it certainly wouldn't on any other franchise.

    Does anybody know of any other NBA player who has his number retired without ever even making an All-Star team?  Not that's that is the end all, be all but it certainly shows the separation between players who were good and ones who were great within the era in which they played especially if they played on consistent title contenders as Max did.  Maxwell was never a great player.  Solid, yes.  Good, yes.  Great, I don't think so.

[nickagneta]

Maxwell was the quintessential transition Celtic between dynasties. The year before Bird he was that Celtic team. He was also, without a doubt, the best defender on that early 80's Celtics team until McHale started growing as a complete NBA defender in 1983-84.

He was the 1981 Finals MVP and that award goes out to Hall of Fame worthy talent for the most part. He is also the NBA career leader in true shooting percentage.

Say what you will for Max but he was a leader in the locker room for those guys, a defensive force often taking the harder forward defensive assignment to allow Bird to roam and create on offense, a tremendous low post threat, maybe the best on the team until McHale's full repertoire started being used, and he knew his role once Bird and Parish and McHale came in and didn't cause problems but played his role.

Does he deserve to have his number retired if you compare him to other players with their numbers retired around the league? probably not. But this is Boston and we know and appreciate basketball better than anywhere and for that we reward the great role playing glue guys that made Celtic teams great and we retire their jerseys.

I have no problem with Max's number 31 being in the rafters.

[TitleMaster]

He was the 1981 Finals MVP and that award goes out to Hall of Fame worthy talent for the most part. He is also the NBA career leader in true shooting percentage.

Say what you will for Max but he was a leader in the locker room for those guys, a defensive force often taking the harder forward defensive assignment to allow Bird to roam and create on offense, a tremendous low post threat, maybe the best on the team until McHale's full repertoire started being used, and he knew his role once Bird and Parish and McHale came in and didn't cause problems but played his role.

Does he deserve to have his number retired if you compare him to other players with their numbers retired around the league? probably not. But this is Boston and we know and appreciate basketball better than anywhere and for that we reward the great role playing glue guys that made Celtic teams great and we retire their jerseys.

I have no problem with Max's number 31 being in the rafters.

Folks, Maxwell, as a defender, pulled a Dennis Rodman in '84 finals by getting inside Worthy's head and taking him out, by games 4/5.

Sorry, I'd watched that series and Worthy was the one player who no one on the C's had the legs, to slow him down. So while McHale was great at shot blocking, in and around the paint, realize, he was needed by Parish, to keep Kareem off the block for that sky hook.

Thus, I'd say Max's contributions in '84 were just as significant as Posey & Brown in '08. So where Posey/Brown only had a year here, if they were on two Celts champion squads, however, over the course of 4-5 years, I'd also want their numbers retired.

[CelticsFanNC]

  Don't get me wrong.  I loved Maxwell back in the 80's.  I just honestly believe he is another former Celtics who in hindsight is being over rated by the Celtic's fan base.  

Nobody said he wasn't good.  At his height, probably very good but in my eyes he was never a great player.  He did a lot with the talent he had.  He came up big in numerous big moments but at least offensively those big games had a whole lot to do with the opposing teams paying tons of attention to Bird and very little to Maxwell.  In other words, everybody on the opposing team had one eye on Bird at all times especially before McHale really blossomed into an offensive force.  That allowed Maxwell to thrive at times and also allowed him to be very efficient.  Think he'd have been even close to as efficient if he wasn't playing alongside of Larry Bird?  I don't.  Without all of the extra attention paid to Bird, Maxwell was an average offensive player who was only a threat from about 5 feet away from the hoop.  Defensively though he was very, very good and at times, in certain match ups a great defender.

  Still if you're not an All-Star/superstar and you're not a big scorer or rebounder what exactly are you?  A ROLE PLAYER.  I don't get why people get so disturbed by calling Maxwell a great role player.  Some of my favorite Celtics over the past 40+ years of being a fan have been role players.  Maxwell was a role player, not a star.

[Celtics4ever]

You do know he took UNC Charlotte to the final four in 1977?  We make a big deal about Butler but he took UNC Charlotte to the final four.  Larry to the Sycamores of Indiana State to the title game.  Everyone makes a big deal about that why not UNC Charlotte?   

He was what we used to call a "money player".  Someone who shows up when the games matter most I believe LeBron is the the Antonym of this kind of player.

He scored 19 PPG and  9.9 RPG in the year before Bird.  The team was horrible 29-53.  Still not bad for a second year player and I wish we had some of that inefficiency today in what you call a role player.  IF anything Bird took away from Maxwell but added to the whole team ability.  Still a win for the C's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedric_Maxwell

I think don't think Max is an all time great.   But I think he was decent and deserved his number retired here because he was instrumental in us winning two rings in the 80s.

Just curious how old are you CelticfanNC?  You didn't seem to know about the MVP of Maxwell in the finals.  Could it be your under 40?

[TitleMaster]

I think don't think Max is an all time great.   But I think he was decent and deserved his number retired here because he was instrumental in us winning two rings in the 80s.

Just curious how old are you CelticfanNC?  You didn't seem to know about the MVP of Maxwell in the finals.  Could it be your under 40?

My sentiments exactly.

But I'd also like to add in my controversial piece ... Bird was not a great one-on-one defender. He was a team defender, who used mismatches and diversions, to get steals and make his opponents less effective.

Thus, Maxwell was in fact the best "roll up the sleeves" character who does the dirty work for the frontline. So yes, he's a role player but an essential role player, who delivered far more than what he was credited for. If LeBron had his heart, our 2010 playoff run would have ended quickly, and last year's finals wouldn't have gone to Dallas.

We may have had no titles against the Lakers, if Max wasn't around. I believe a lot of persons simply believe that Bird won those rings by himself. Ain't true, the Lakers were one of the craftiest teams out there, who could mix the run 'n gun with half-court sets w/o adieu. It was a full team effort to take 'em on along with the Sixers.

[CelticsFanNC]

You do know he took UNC Charlotte to the final four in 1977?  We make a big deal about Butler but he took UNC Charlotte to the final four.  Larry to the Sycamores of Indiana State to the title game.  Everyone makes a big deal about that why not UNC Charlotte?  

He was what we used to call a "money player".  Someone who shows up when the games matter most I believe LeBron is the the Antonym of this kind of player.

He scored 19 PPG and  9.9 RPG in the year before Bird.  The team was horrible 29-53.  Still not bad for a second year player and I wish we had some of that inefficiency today in what you call a role player.  IF anything Bird took away from Maxwell but added to the whole team ability.  Still a win for the C's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedric_Maxwell

I think don't think Max is an all time great.   But I think he was decent and deserved his number retired here because he was instrumental in us winning two rings in the 80s.

Just curious how old are you CelticfanNC?  You didn't seem to know about the MVP of Maxwell in the finals.  Could it be your under 40?

  I'm 47.  I have been a rabid Celtics fan for almost 40 years.  I grew up in Burlington, Vermont which is how I became a Celtic's fan back in the 70's.  I saw Maxwell, Bird, McHale, Cowens, Hondo and Lewis play in person on numerous occasions over the years in the REAL Boston Gah-den.

  I think a fair comparison to Maxwell's impact would be Robert Horry.  Horry was a good player.  A great role player on quite a few more title teams then Max was. He also had MORE big games in post season competition then Maxwell did. I don't think his number should be retired in any of his NBA stops either.

  Of course I knew Maxwell won a finals MVP in 1981 and had a huge clinching game in 1984 which I watched.  I know he led the NBA in FG%.  I know he for a long time held the Celtics all-time record for FG%.  I know all about  Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell.  He was my favorite Celtic before Bird came along and made us into title contenders for a decade.
 

  IMO if Maxwell's number should be retired by the Celtics then so should Tiny Archibald's.  Tiny was either the 2nd best or 3rd best player on the Celtics during Bird's early years and made a huge impact at least as big as Max's IMO. He was also an All-Star as a Celtic more then once, something Max never did.

   To me the Celtics have gone a bit over board in retiring numbers.  If you're going to retire Maxwell's then you should retire Archibald's.  If you go there then what about Paul Silas who made a huge impact in Boston.  Garnett?  Allen? Rondo? Ainge? Antione Walker(I just threw up in my mouth a little bit) Charlie Scott? Don Chaney? Perkins?(that's for all of the Perk worshipers around here)  Where does it stop?   By the time our Children are our age the Celtics will be stuck wearing triple digit numbers.  I hate to say it but on this....the Laker's have it right.

  It should be transcendent players especially with a franchise as storied as the Celtics.  Superstars.  Maxwell wasn't transcendent or a superstar.


  .....and yes I know of Maxwell's exploits at UNC Charlotte.  I have lived in Wilmington, NC only a couple of hours from Charlotte for quite a few years now. His college career down here is legendary and he often appears on ESPN local radio broadcasts during the NBA season down in my neck of the woods.  

[2short]

You do know he took UNC Charlotte to the final four in 1977?  We make a big deal about Butler but he took UNC Charlotte to the final four.  Larry to the Sycamores of Indiana State to the title game.  Everyone makes a big deal about that why not UNC Charlotte?  

He was what we used to call a "money player".  Someone who shows up when the games matter most I believe LeBron is the the Antonym of this kind of player.

He scored 19 PPG and  9.9 RPG in the year before Bird.  The team was horrible 29-53.  Still not bad for a second year player and I wish we had some of that inefficiency today in what you call a role player.  IF anything Bird took away from Maxwell but added to the whole team ability.  Still a win for the C's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedric_Maxwell

I think don't think Max is an all time great.   But I think he was decent and deserved his number retired here because he was instrumental in us winning two rings in the 80s.

Just curious how old are you CelticfanNC?  You didn't seem to know about the MVP of Maxwell in the finals.  Could it be your under 40?

  I'm 47.  I have been a rabid Celtics fan for almost 40 years.  I grew up in Burlington, Vermont which is how I became a Celtic's fan back in the 70's.  I saw Maxwell, Bird, McHale, Cowens, Hondo and Lewis play in person on numerous occasions over the years in the REAL Boston Gah-den.

  I think a fair comparison to Maxwell's impact would be Robert Horry.  Horry was a good player.  A great role player on quite a few more title teams then Max was. He also had MORE big games in post season competition then Maxwell did. I don't think his number should be retired in any of his NBA stops either.

  Of course I knew Maxwell won a finals MVP in 1981 and had a huge clinching game in 1984 which I watched.  I know he led the NBA in FG%.  I know he for a long time held the Celtics all-time record for FG%.  I know all about  Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell.  He was my favorite Celtic before Bird came along and made us into title contenders for a decade.
 

  IMO if Maxwell's number should be retired by the Celtics then so should Tiny Archibald's.  Tiny was either the 2nd best or 3rd best player on the Celtics during Bird's early years and made a huge impact at least as big as Max's IMO. He was also an All-Star as a Celtic more then once, something Max never did.

   To me the Celtics have gone a bit over board in retiring numbers.  If you're going to retire Maxwell's then you should retire Archibald's.  If you go there then what about Paul Silas who made a huge impact in Boston.  Garnett?  Allen? Rondo? Ainge? Antione Walker(I just threw up in my mouth a little bit) Charlie Scott? Don Chaney? Perkins?(that's for all of the Perk worshipers around here)  Where does it stop?   By the time our Children are our age the Celtics will be stuck wearing triple digit numbers.  I hate to say it but on this....the Laker's have it right.

  It should be transcendent players especially with a franchise as storied as the Celtics.  Superstars.  Maxwell wasn't transcendent or a superstar.


  .....and yes I know of Maxwell's exploits at UNC Charlotte.  I have lived in Wilmington, NC only a couple of hours from Charlotte for quite a few years now. His college career down here is legendary and he often appears on ESPN local radio broadcasts during the NBA season down in my neck of the woods.  

TP, I myself am "middle aged"     .  Prior to Bird it was Cowens team, he was the leader on the floor and locker room.  Max was a good role player but nothing more.  People are talking about defense, yes max was very good, but Parish was probably our best defender prior to McHale's game improving.  Which by the way when Worthy's game improved no way would Max have stayed with him.  Except for Kareem I always really enjoyed watching the lakers from that era, good basketball.
Love your section on the numbers being retired.  Paul Silas!

[CelticsFanNC]

You do know he took UNC Charlotte to the final four in 1977?  We make a big deal about Butler but he took UNC Charlotte to the final four.  Larry to the Sycamores of Indiana State to the title game.  Everyone makes a big deal about that why not UNC Charlotte?  

He was what we used to call a "money player".  Someone who shows up when the games matter most I believe LeBron is the the Antonym of this kind of player.

He scored 19 PPG and  9.9 RPG in the year before Bird.  The team was horrible 29-53.  Still not bad for a second year player and I wish we had some of that inefficiency today in what you call a role player.  IF anything Bird took away from Maxwell but added to the whole team ability.  Still a win for the C's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedric_Maxwell

I think don't think Max is an all time great.   But I think he was decent and deserved his number retired here because he was instrumental in us winning two rings in the 80s.

Just curious how old are you CelticfanNC?  You didn't seem to know about the MVP of Maxwell in the finals.  Could it be your under 40?

  I'm 47.  I have been a rabid Celtics fan for almost 40 years.  I grew up in Burlington, Vermont which is how I became a Celtic's fan back in the 70's.  I saw Maxwell, Bird, McHale, Cowens, Hondo and Lewis play in person on numerous occasions over the years in the REAL Boston Gah-den.

  I think a fair comparison to Maxwell's impact would be Robert Horry.  Horry was a good player.  A great role player on quite a few more title teams then Max was. He also had MORE big games in post season competition then Maxwell did. I don't think his number should be retired in any of his NBA stops either.

  Of course I knew Maxwell won a finals MVP in 1981 and had a huge clinching game in 1984 which I watched.  I know he led the NBA in FG%.  I know he for a long time held the Celtics all-time record for FG%.  I know all about  Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell.  He was my favorite Celtic before Bird came along and made us into title contenders for a decade.
 

  IMO if Maxwell's number should be retired by the Celtics then so should Tiny Archibald's.  Tiny was either the 2nd best or 3rd best player on the Celtics during Bird's early years and made a huge impact at least as big as Max's IMO. He was also an All-Star as a Celtic more then once, something Max never did.

   To me the Celtics have gone a bit over board in retiring numbers.  If you're going to retire Maxwell's then you should retire Archibald's.  If you go there then what about Paul Silas who made a huge impact in Boston.  Garnett?  Allen? Rondo? Ainge? Antione Walker(I just threw up in my mouth a little bit) Charlie Scott? Don Chaney? Perkins?(that's for all of the Perk worshipers around here)  Where does it stop?   By the time our Children are our age the Celtics will be stuck wearing triple digit numbers.  I hate to say it but on this....the Laker's have it right.

  It should be transcendent players especially with a franchise as storied as the Celtics.  Superstars.  Maxwell wasn't transcendent or a superstar.


  .....and yes I know of Maxwell's exploits at UNC Charlotte.  I have lived in Wilmington, NC only a couple of hours from Charlotte for quite a few years now. His college career down here is legendary and he often appears on ESPN local radio broadcasts during the NBA season down in my neck of the woods.  

TP, I myself am "middle aged"     .  Prior to Bird it was Cowens team, he was the leader on the floor and locker room.  Max was a good role player but nothing more.  People are talking about defense, yes max was very good, but Parish was probably our best defender prior to McHale's game improving.  Which by the way when Worthy's game improved no way would Max have stayed with him.  Except for Kareem I always really enjoyed watching the lakers from that era, good basketball.
Love your section on the numbers being retired.  Paul Silas!

  Thanks buddy!    

  I'm not dogging Maxwell.  I loved Maxwell.  I just don't think a guy who was never better then the 4th best player on a title team of a franchise with 17 NBA titles deserves to have his number retired.   Before Bird got there he looked like he might one day be an All-Star for one season but that team was one of the worst in Celtic's history so statistics don't mean a whole lot.  Bird's rookie season Max might have been Boston's 3rd best player behind Archibald and Bird.  Then once Parish (and McHale) got there Maxwell became a full-time roll player.  His roll was to defend the opposing teams scoring forward and score the rock when Bird or Archibald set him up in his wheel house(6-7 feet and in).

  There is nothing wrong with that.  Actually there is something great about players like Maxwell, Scott Wedman, Bill Walton, Danny Ainge and Paul Silas.   You don't win without guys who sacrifice individual accolades to win championships.   Guys who play their role to perfection to help a team achieve a lofty goal.  Anybody with any true knowledge of the game appreciates role players.

  That doesn't mean they should have their numbers retired in my opinion.