Pierce, Ray and J. Green

[CelticsFanNC]

 I also think that the Rondo factor has to play into this at some point if he is indeed the PG of the future because he will never truly reach his potential as a player playing most of his minutes alongside a bunch of.....excuse me for saying this, geezers.  The Big Old Three aren't the future of this team in any way shape or form.

  Rondo may not be the future ether but at least that situation is up for debate.  The other certainly is not.  Fans may not want to think that way but if Ainge and Doc are competent at their respective jobs then they must think that way.

Rondo will reach his potential when he can hit an outside shot with regularity and shoot 70-75% from the free throw line.

His potential to be great has more to do with him and less to do with the Big Three because, quite honestly, as a PG, you want to pass the ball to people who can make shots. Last year:

Pierce had a TS% of .620.
Allen had a TS% of .615.
KG had a TS% of .575

Does it matter how old the players he is passing to are if they make shots at those unreal percentages?

Just because Rondo is young and can run doesn't mean the running game is the best way for him to reach his potential. The man averaged over 11 assists per game playing with players who could make shots at high percentages. The running game doesn't assure so many more easy baskets that it would offset the efficiency drop from Boston Celtics half court game that is anchored by the Big Three.

The Big Three's time is nearly over, but if this season returns, they deserve one more shot at a title run with the starters as starters. 2007-08 says they have earned that right. After that, change what needs to be changed.

 

You are disregarding or dismissing the fact that the Big Three's FG% were all at or near career highs mostly due to Rondo's ability to get them shots exactly where the want them.

  Even Pierce, once great at creating his own shot, isn't anywhere near as great at that as he once was.  KG and Allen rely almost completely on Rondo to score.  Rondo has extended their effectiveness with or without an outside shot.

  Saying he cannot do the same for others is selling him quite a bit short IMO.

  If you factor in the extreme need for the Celtics to be more athletic especially at the 2/3 spots to compete in today's NBA, you have to consider changing up the starting line up or settle for mediocrity.  

  Being too loyal to older players leads directly to mediocrity.  We've been down this path before in the late 80's.  People who don't learn from previous errors in judgement are going to repeat them.  I don't care to live through that again.

  The time for change is on the horizon, it is almost here whether people like it or not.

[Inside-Out]

 Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should bee considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.

You're right. And as soon as the Celtics find that next great player so that Pierce can step aside, I am sure he will.

That next great player is not Jeff Green.

  It doesn't necessarily need to be the next great player to make the team as a whole more effective.  Was Cedric Maxwell a great player when he was playing ahead of Kevin McHale?   Was Hondo still not one of the five best players on the Celtics when he was a great 6th man?   The Boston Celtics more so then any other team have proven you can win while not starting your best five players.

Maxwell who was the Finals MVP is a bit different then Jeff Green. 

  That's true.  Still Maxwell was riding on the coat tails of Bird, Parish and Archibald.  He was far from a "future star" while it was quite evident even at that point that McHale, the 6th man was a better player then Maxwell.

Max won the Finals MVP when McHale was a rookie.  Then McHale still came off the bench and won 2 consecutive 6th man awards.  Then Max got traded so McHale could start.  That's what actually happened.

So to say the better McHale came off the bench while Max started isn't really true for the first 3 seasons.  In 84, the team dominated to a 62-20 record and it had become Bird's team.  In 81, it was Max's team.  A case can be made that in 84, McHale was better, but at that point the team was rolling and Mchale was getting plenty of minutes anyway, so what did it matter?  In any case, Maxwell/McHale is in no way similar to question of Pierce being 6th man unless trading Paul to make room for Green was to happen, which is just silly.

Hondo played the 6th man role as well, but started and dominated quite a few seasons first.  He didn't make way for a better player necessarily, but rather age and a declining game was it.  That may be more the deal with Pierce, and I hope he can cope with it when it comes around.  It will.  And the player who starts might not be as good as him.


Regarding JGreen, I really like his game and ability.  I'd like to see him develop on defense, and practice with the system will help.  I project him as a solid 3rd option on most teams of playoff calibre, but with Rondo setting things up (and being perhaps a 3rd option himself), I could see Green being a #2 option.  He has spot-up 3 ability and a great post game; imagine a freakishly athletic Eric Williams.

If he can become a great team defender, I'll take that as my #2-3 option.  Green is a keeper.

[CelticsFanNC]

 Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should bee considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.

You're right. And as soon as the Celtics find that next great player so that Pierce can step aside, I am sure he will.

That next great player is not Jeff Green.

  It doesn't necessarily need to be the next great player to make the team as a whole more effective.  Was Cedric Maxwell a great player when he was playing ahead of Kevin McHale?   Was Hondo still not one of the five best players on the Celtics when he was a great 6th man?   The Boston Celtics more so then any other team have proven you can win while not starting your best five players.

Maxwell who was the Finals MVP is a bit different then Jeff Green.  

  That's true.  Still Maxwell was riding on the coat tails of Bird, Parish and Archibald.  He was far from a "future star" while it was quite evident even at that point that McHale, the 6th man was a better player then Maxwell.

Max won the Finals MVP when McHale was a rookie.  Then McHale still came off the bench and won 2 consecutive 6th man awards.  Then Max got traded so McHale could start.  That's what actually happened.

So to say the better McHale came off the bench while Max started isn't really true for the first 3 seasons.  In 84, the team dominated to a 62-20 record and it had become Bird's team.  In 81, it was Max's team.  A case can be made that in 84, McHale was better, but at that point the team was rolling and Mchale was getting plenty of minutes anyway, so what did it matter?  In any case, Maxwell/McHale is in no way similar to question of Pierce being 6th man unless trading Paul to make room for Green was to happen, which is just silly.

Hondo played the 6th man role as well, but started and dominated quite a few seasons first.  He didn't make way for a better player necessarily, but rather age and a declining game was it.  That may be more the deal with Pierce, and I hope he can cope with it when it comes around.  It will.  And the player who starts might not be as good as him.


Regarding JGreen, I really like his game and ability.  I'd like to see him develop on defense, and practice with the system will help.  I project him as a solid 3rd option on most teams of playoff calibre, but with Rondo setting things up (and being perhaps a 3rd option himself), I could see Green being a #2 option.  He has spot-up 3 ability and a great post game; imagine a freakishly athletic Eric Williams.

If he can become a great team defender, I'll take that as my #2-3 option.  Green is a keeper.

  Bird, Parish and Archibald were all multiple time All-Stars in the early 80's before McHale blossomed into a full blown superstar.  Maxwell was a solid contributer no doubt but he was far from a cornerstone of those teams.  He was an easily replaceable part and was replaced soon there after.  I love Max.  He was a good compliment to Bird, Parish and Archibald but he was a role player just the same.

[CelticsFanNC]

  I do apologize if I sound unappreciative of what the Big Three have brought back to Boston.  That is far from the case.  It has been an absolute joy to not only see them bring back the glory of the Boston Celtics but to do so while emulating everything that made the Boston Celtics the greatest franchise in NBA history and one of the 2 or 3 greatest franchises in all of professional sports.  Many nights I could watch the games and follow the ball movement, the defense, the incredible clutch play and actually envision the great Celtic teams of the past.    I, like many others have been waiting impatiently for 20 years to see them raise anther banner.  I get it.

  I just don't buy into this whole, "they've earned the right to try for another title" line of thinking.  That's not how the best franchises in the salary cap era conduct business.  Too much loyalty to older players breeds mediocrity.  In my eyes they were almost too old last season to compete for a title.  I don't see it getting better without change and that change almost certainly needs to be in the starting line up in my eyes.

  If you're are of that line of thinking as I am then you have to consider the Celtics options.  Jeff Green maybe the only reasonable option.  KG has to start because we are already thin at the 4/5 spots and even at his age is by far our best player  at those spots.  Green cannot play the 4 against starters anyways.  Pierce cannot guard starting 2's on a night to night basis like he may have been able to do when he was younger. Allen has to start unless Ainge can pull a rabbit out of his hat and land someone else who can start at the 2 with what little he has to offer said player.  Pierce coming off of the bench seems to be the only reasonable option at this point if you believe change needs to be made if we are to truly contend for a title.  Pierce of course still finishes and feasts on other teams reserves for many of his minutes.  It's not something I am completely sold on but it also isn't something I am willing to close the book on either.

[Interceptor]

I don't see why Pierce can't just start and finish both, with reduced usage to conserve his energy for when it matters. Everyone in the NBA spends time on the bench, nobody plays all 48 minutes. Jeff Green lets him sit. What's the problem?

[nickagneta]

 I also think that the Rondo factor has to play into this at some point if he is indeed the PG of the future because he will never truly reach his potential as a player playing most of his minutes alongside a bunch of.....excuse me for saying this, geezers.  The Big Old Three aren't the future of this team in any way shape or form.

  Rondo may not be the future ether but at least that situation is up for debate.  The other certainly is not.  Fans may not want to think that way but if Ainge and Doc are competent at their respective jobs then they must think that way.

Rondo will reach his potential when he can hit an outside shot with regularity and shoot 70-75% from the free throw line.

His potential to be great has more to do with him and less to do with the Big Three because, quite honestly, as a PG, you want to pass the ball to people who can make shots. Last year:

Pierce had a TS% of .620.
Allen had a TS% of .615.
KG had a TS% of .575

Does it matter how old the players he is passing to are if they make shots at those unreal percentages?

Just because Rondo is young and can run doesn't mean the running game is the best way for him to reach his potential. The man averaged over 11 assists per game playing with players who could make shots at high percentages. The running game doesn't assure so many more easy baskets that it would offset the efficiency drop from Boston Celtics half court game that is anchored by the Big Three.

The Big Three's time is nearly over, but if this season returns, they deserve one more shot at a title run with the starters as starters. 2007-08 says they have earned that right. After that, change what needs to be changed.

 

You are disregarding or dismissing the fact that the Big Three's FG% were all at or near career highs mostly due to Rondo's ability to get them shots exactly where the want them.

  Even Pierce, once great at creating his own shot, isn't anywhere near as great at that as he once was.  KG and Allen rely almost completely on Rondo to score.  Rondo has extended their effectiveness with or without an outside shot.

  Saying he cannot do the same for others is selling him quite a bit short IMO.

  If you factor in the extreme need for the Celtics to be more athletic especially at the 2/3 spots to compete in today's NBA, you have to consider changing up the starting line up or settle for mediocrity.  

  Being too loyal to older players leads directly to mediocrity.  We've been down this path before in the late 80's.  People who don't learn from previous errors in judgement are going to repeat them.  I don't care to live through that again.

  The time for change is on the horizon, it is almost here whether people like it or not.

Rondo could create the same exact shots for much younger players and guess what, they will probably not make the shots at anywhere near the Big Three's efficiency.

Here, let me list for you all the wing players that had a higher TS% last year than Allen and Pierce that played more than 30 MPG:

Aaron Afflalo


Now let me list all the ones from the year before:

Lebron James
Kevin Durant

The year before that there wasn't a single wing with a better TS% than Ray Allen and just a handful better than Pierce(Kevin Martin, LeBron James, Mike Miller, Danny Granger, Gerald Wallace).

Pierce and Allen are great shooters. Just because Rondo is a great passer doesn't mean that he is solely responsible for their great shooting and that just anyone could replace them. Clearly this stat shows that Pierce and Allen have been great shooters for a while and that not just anyone is suddenly going to show up and hit shots at the same percentage just because Rondo is passing them the ball.

[manl_lui]

I think Ray and Pierce should remain as starters whereas their minutes should be cut so they have more rest.

Jeff Green if he chooses to resign with us should increase his minutes, I still think he improved his def with us, but his offense was never a problem but he was too passive

[CelticsFanNC]

 I also think that the Rondo factor has to play into this at some point if he is indeed the PG of the future because he will never truly reach his potential as a player playing most of his minutes alongside a bunch of.....excuse me for saying this, geezers.  The Big Old Three aren't the future of this team in any way shape or form.

  Rondo may not be the future ether but at least that situation is up for debate.  The other certainly is not.  Fans may not want to think that way but if Ainge and Doc are competent at their respective jobs then they must think that way.

Rondo will reach his potential when he can hit an outside shot with regularity and shoot 70-75% from the free throw line.

His potential to be great has more to do with him and less to do with the Big Three because, quite honestly, as a PG, you want to pass the ball to people who can make shots. Last year:

Pierce had a TS% of .620.
Allen had a TS% of .615.
KG had a TS% of .575

Does it matter how old the players he is passing to are if they make shots at those unreal percentages?

Just because Rondo is young and can run doesn't mean the running game is the best way for him to reach his potential. The man averaged over 11 assists per game playing with players who could make shots at high percentages. The running game doesn't assure so many more easy baskets that it would offset the efficiency drop from Boston Celtics half court game that is anchored by the Big Three.

The Big Three's time is nearly over, but if this season returns, they deserve one more shot at a title run with the starters as starters. 2007-08 says they have earned that right. After that, change what needs to be changed.

 

You are disregarding or dismissing the fact that the Big Three's FG% were all at or near career highs mostly due to Rondo's ability to get them shots exactly where the want them.

  Even Pierce, once great at creating his own shot, isn't anywhere near as great at that as he once was.  KG and Allen rely almost completely on Rondo to score.  Rondo has extended their effectiveness with or without an outside shot.

  Saying he cannot do the same for others is selling him quite a bit short IMO.

  If you factor in the extreme need for the Celtics to be more athletic especially at the 2/3 spots to compete in today's NBA, you have to consider changing up the starting line up or settle for mediocrity.  

  Being too loyal to older players leads directly to mediocrity.  We've been down this path before in the late 80's.  People who don't learn from previous errors in judgement are going to repeat them.  I don't care to live through that again.

  The time for change is on the horizon, it is almost here whether people like it or not.

Rondo could create the same exact shots for much younger players and guess what, they will probably not make the shots at anywhere near the Big Three's efficiency.

Here, let me list for you all the wing players that had a higher TS% last year than Allen and Pierce that played more than 30 MPG:

Aaron Afflalo


Now let me list all the ones from the year before:

Lebron James
Kevin Durant

The year before that there wasn't a single wing with a better TS% than Ray Allen and just a handful better than Pierce(Kevin Martin, LeBron James, Mike Miller, Danny Granger, Gerald Wallace).

Pierce and Allen are great shooters. Just because Rondo is a great passer doesn't mean that he is solely responsible for their great shooting and that just anyone could replace them. Clearly this stat shows that Pierce and Allen have been great shooters for a while and that not just anyone is suddenly going to show up and hit shots at the same percentage just because Rondo is passing them the ball.

  I didn't say he was solely responsible but I did infer he is highly responsible.  I stand by that.

  Guys at Pierce and Allens' ages don't get better statistically as they have unless the players around them are making their jobs easier which is exactly what Rondo does....again, with or with out an outside shot.  Allen cannot create his own shot against starters at all.  Pierce isn't half the shot creator he once was and is relying more and more on the spot up shots Rondo creates for him.  Rondo creates great opportunities for them which in turn raises their efficiency.  I don't really think that is even debatable at this point but thats just me.

  I also personally do not believe they can defend the 2/3 spots well enough to compete in the new eastern conference.  Now either can Green at the stage he was at last season but he should improve with another year in this system and a training camp.  Allen and Pierce's best days are in the rear view mirror.  If the Celtics do not become more athletic in their starting line up they aren't getting out of the Eastern Conference next season.  Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

  Now you tell me how they achieve that with what little Ainge is going to have to work with?

[ScoobyDoo]

Some really great well thought out points CelticsFanNC. Tommy point to you.

KG - 35 this year?
Ray - 36 this year?
Paul - 34 this year?

Yeah, I'd say it's about time to start transitioning. As you said CeltsFanNC, we were desperately lacking in the athleticism department at the 2/3 spots last year. Dwayne Wade practically had a layup line against Ray last playoffs.

This is no knock on Ray and Paul - both are still incredibly productive at their positions, especially when considering their age.

HOWEVER, at some point might it be a good time to start taking the load off and realistically looking at the future and starting to transition to that future now. Or should we keep carting the big three out there for the next 2-3 seasons, when they'll be 39, 38 and 37 respectively.

This doesn't mean you have to take the reigns away form them or give the reigns to anyone else.

1. Let the young guys carry more of the heavy load throughout the season and if they've earned it throughout the playoffs.

2. Because they are pros, Pierce, Ray and KG will remain money when we need it.

Regular Season
KG - 25-30 minutes
Ray - 28-32 minutes
Pierce - 30-33 minutes

Save their legs for the when it matters.

Load up on Green, Rondo, and any other young legs we have and as much as we can during the regular season.

Young guys get better faster
Old guys stay fresher and more effective longer

Win - win...

As Manlui said, Pierce and ray could remain starters as long as their minutes are reduced.

Green could also make his goal to be sixth man of the year.

As long as we stop grinding the big three into the ground all season - I'm on board.     

[CelticsFanNC]

Some really great well thought out points CelticsFanNC. Tommy point to you.

KG - 35 this year?
Ray - 36 this year?
Paul - 34 this year?

Yeah, I'd say it's about time to start transitioning. As you said CeltsFanNC, we were desperately lacking in the athleticism department at the 2/3 spots last year. Dwayne Wade practically had a layup line against Ray last playoffs.

This is no knock on Ray and Paul - both are still incredibly productive at their positions, especially when considering their age.

HOWEVER, at some point might it be a good time to start taking the load off and realistically looking at the future and starting to transition to that future now. Or should we keep carting the big three out there for the next 2-3 seasons, when they'll be 39, 38 and 37 respectively.

This doesn't mean you have to take the reigns away form them or give the reigns to anyone else.

1. Let the young guys carry more of the heavy load throughout the season and if they've earned it throughout the playoffs.

2. Because they are pros, Pierce, Ray and KG will remain money when we need it.

Regular Season
KG - 25-30 minutes
Ray - 28-32 minutes
Pierce - 30-33 minutes

Save their legs for the when it matters.

Load up on Green, Rondo, and any other young legs we have and as much as we can during the regular season.

Young guys get better faster
Old guys stay fresher and more effective longer

Win - win...

As Manlui said, Pierce and ray could remain starters as long as their minutes are reduced.

Green could also make his goal to be sixth man of the year.

As long as we stop grinding the big three into the ground all season - I'm on board.      

  Exactly.  This team needs to begin to refocus.  The status quo isn't going to be good enough.

  There were more times last season when the Big Three looked old either individually or collectively then they did the previous season.  You can look forward to that even more if we have a season this year.  That's a fact of life.

  The easiest way to limit the leg fatigue that has plagued the Big Three at times and for long stretches these past few seasons to me is to bring one of them off of the  bench.  KG isn't an option and is on a minutes limit anyways.  By doing so you can limit Pierce and Allen because they can both play two positions so they can slide into each others spots.  If you bring Pierce off of the bench it should spread the scoring around hopefully limiting the scoring droughts that have plagued our bench for a couple of seasons.  Pierce is the better option IMO because he is still capable of creating for others(although not nearly as well as he could 3 or 4 years ago )while that skill has almost completely left Allen while Allen feeds off and depends on Rondo more then anyone else on this team.  I can see Pierce having his way with opposing reserves even if he has slipped as a facilitator.

  It just makes too much sense to me to not at least try.  If Doc goes into next season with the same game plan as he has had these past few season this team will struggle even more then it did at times last year and that's not good enough to get it done in the East.  If you cannot get it done then I don't see the point in leaning so heavily on the aging Big Three.  

[Inside-Out]

In my book, it was inevitable that someone would HAVE to be brought in that could perhaps eventually replace a current Big3er. 

It's just that we all thought Ray would be the first guy to the bench of the 3.

It seems to have muddied the waters a bit to have made the deal to bring in a SF/F instead of a SG.

Something tells me Danny has another trick or two up his sleeve that will throw a kink in all of this.

[Interceptor]

I don't understand the people building a walker for Ray Allen. He just finished a season where he played 36.1 MPG in 80 games (nobody on the Celtics played more than Ray, although Rondo would have beaten him if not injured), good for #13 in the entire NBA. His FG% and 3P% were literally the best of his career. His TS% was completely absurd.

He is not a man, he is a machine.

[CelticsFanNC]

In my book, it was inevitable that someone would HAVE to be brought in that could perhaps eventually replace a current Big3er.  

It's just that we all thought Ray would be the first guy to the bench of the 3.

It seems to have muddied the waters a bit to have made the deal to bring in a SF/F instead of a SG.

Something tells me Danny has another trick or two up his sleeve that will throw a kink in all of this.

 See I never thought that Ray Allen would be the first to take on a lesser role even though at least on a calendar he is the oldest of the three.  To me his shelf life as a starter could extend beyond either of the other two due to him being in tremendous physical condition that belies his age.  Sure his defense has slipped and will continue to slip but he'll be able to run around picks and knock down jumpers until he is 45 if he chooses to IMO barring injuries of course.

  But to me to keep him(or Pierce for that matter) as a starter  much longer you must become more athletic at the other wing spot because it is very difficult if not impossible to compete with teams like Miami if you are facing a huge speed/quickness/athleticism disadvantage at both wing spots.  My thinking is you can cover for one but it is very difficult to cover for both spots night in and night out  when most of the best athletes in the NBA today play the 2/3 spots.  The Celtics aren't very athletic at either spot as it now stands(with a status quo in the starting line up) and to me that is far too steep of a slope to climb.

  

[2short]

I feel Pierce is better to be the 2nd unit leader as he has the best offensive weapons on the team.  Ray is a pick shooter who greatly benefits from rondo getting him the ball exactly in the right area, big difference when west was pg.
As far as max    put eddie pickney on that team and its about a wash.  I still can't understand why maxwell's number is retired.  He was a solid player on horrible celtic teams, a role player on bird teams and shipped out and replaced easy enough.

[Celtics4ever]

Max was really crucial to a game seven win in  84.  He really helped us in game 7 of that series and he called it.  He was MVP of the 1981 Finals.  So much for him being a role player with Larry.  While I agree Larry was the better player but Max was no slouch.   He got injured though and was never the same.

Maxwell, in addition to being a dangerous scorer and a colorful character, was a clutch performer in the playoffs. Despite being overshadowed by such stars as Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, and Robert Parish, Maxwell was named MVP of the 1981 NBA Finals. Three years later, Maxwell scored 24 points against the Los Angeles Lakers in the decisive game-seven victory during the 1984 NBA Finals. Before the game, he told his teammates to "climb on my back, boys." Maxwell's colorful side was also on display in the series as he mocked second-year Laker forward James Worthy's inability to make free throws during overtime of game 4 by walking across the lane between free throws with his hands around his own neck, suggesting Worthy's choking under pressure. Maxwell also made fun of Kurt Rambis prior to Game 4 of the 1984 Finals, wearing Rambis's trademark glasses and inadvertently missing a long range shot in front of loyal Rambis fans known as the "Rambis Youth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedric_Maxwell