Author Topic: Pierce, Ray and J. Green  (Read 14185 times)

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Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 10:25:31 AM »

Offline Inside-Out

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There is no way that Pierce ever comes off the bench as a Celtic.

  If he remains a Celtic until the end of his deal he wont be starter material.  As much as I like Pierce, better men have come off of the Celtics bench then Paul Pierce.  He should never, ever be put above the franchises potential success.

TP for perspective.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 10:29:55 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Can Green first play well for the Celtics before he starts?



Those four starters are not the issue. 

The bench production, lack of a healthy C and lack of rebounding hurts this team. 


Green is not a healthy C.  He is a weak rebounder. 

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 11:02:44 AM »

Offline Q_FBE

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We probably will not play this season. I would try to trade Rondo and Jeff Green for Chris Paul and the rights to draft Austin Rivers and then get Dwight Howard in here. Retain Pierce, sign Ray Allen and KG for the veteran minimums and fill out the roster with Troy Murphy / Mike Dunleavy / Delonte West/ Carlos Arroyo types. Get Brian Scalabrine as a bench warmer assistent coach.

That would be well worth the wait. 
The beatings will continue until morale improves

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 11:10:21 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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There is no way that Pierce ever comes off the bench as a Celtic.

  If he remains a Celtic until the end of his deal he wont be starter material.  As much as I like Pierce, better men have come off of the Celtics bench then Paul Pierce.  He should never, ever be put above the franchises potential success.

TP for perspective.
Nor should Paul Pierce be disrespected by being thrown to the bench because people come up with the bad idea that putting a younger, less talented, less productive, less efficient, less experienced, less clutch player like Green into the starting lineup.

When Green plays a great game here it will be his first. As wdleehi said, how about he play some great games here first and prove he deserves and has earned the right to start before taking the Captain of the team and longest tenured Celtic and one of the greatest Celtics of all time and relegating him to the bench.

Heck, I'm not sure Jeff Green has even earned the qualifying offer to be on the team, never mind the right to start.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 11:38:53 AM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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With regards to Pierce coming off the bench, I think how nit's perceived depends on how you look at that role, how you look at the team concept and what one's estimation / evaluation of Jeff Green's potential is.

1. Role of the 6th man -
* I think it would be an honor for Pierce to become our 6th man at this point in his career - and it has nothing to do with Pierce's current lack of ability - to the contrary.
* We'd be asking Pierce to maximize his still enormous talents to stabilize our second unit - something that has been a very, very weak part of our team the last 2-3 seasons.
* Pierce as our sixth man suddenly makes our second unit "very" nasty.


2. The concept of team -
* If I'm Pierce and was presented with it I'd ask Doc one question, "do you 100% honestly feel that me being our 6th man and stabilizing our second unit is going to increase our chances of winning a second ring, a second title before KG & Ray retire? If Doc's answer is yes, I ask where he needs me to sign up. End of discussion.
* We haven't one a title in three seasons - could it hurt to try something different?
* I'd still aim to get Pierce about 30-33 minutes a night all season. The change is coming folks, we can't ride Pierce forever -but start taking some of the load off him now and we'll maximize what he has left in the tank.

3. My own Estimation/Evaluation of Jeff Green -
* He didn't play that well last year but I doubt he could have come into a more difficult transitional situation than he did.
* Give a full year with Doc, whenever training camp starts and with our team, whenever - hopefully - the season starts.
* He's not a superstar but I can see him easily averaging 15-18 a night with 5-7 boards and improving defense.
* Green's speed up and down the court should also open Ray up a lot on the wings.
* Get Green and Rondo working more and more together because within a another 2-3 years that's what we're looking at as Pierce fades.

We need to start taking more and more of a load off the KG, Ray and Pierce if we want to extend their still very productive careers.

Let's get on with it. They still run the show when it matters most, but let's have the young legs carry more and more weight, especially during the season. The whole "team" will become stronger as a result.

Rondo and Jeff Green should do well on the break together, get us a lot of easy baskets as well.

1st team:
J. O'Neal or Free agent
KG
J. Green
Ray
Rondo   

Bench:

J. O'Neal or Free agent
Big Baby, JJJ or whoever we sign
Pierce
DWest
Bradley, or Vet Min Vet point
     

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2011, 12:09:44 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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With regards to Pierce coming off the bench, I think how nit's perceived depends on how you look at that role, how you look at the team concept and what one's estimation / evaluation of Jeff Green's potential is.

1. Role of the 6th man -
* I think it would be an honor for Pierce to become our 6th man at this point in his career - and it has nothing to do with Pierce's current lack of ability - to the contrary.
* We'd be asking Pierce to maximize his still enormous talents to stabilize our second unit - something that has been a very, very weak part of our team the last 2-3 seasons.

    
Have you ore have you not been watching the Celtics over the last three years? Doc rarely puts five second teamers out there unless his team is up big time. What he does is leave one starter out there with four second teamers and that is his second team. Guess who has been, for the most part, the player anchoring that second team over the years?

Either Pierce or Allen. Pierce is already anchoring the second team without having to come off the bench or reduce the efficacy of the starting five. The reason for the weak bench has not been because Pierce doesn't play with the bench, its been because the bench has been made up of poor quality players or players who don't play because they have been injured.

2. The concept of team -
* If I'm Pierce and was presented with it I'd ask Doc one question, "do you 100% honestly feel that me being our 6th man and stabilizing our second unit is going to increase our chances of winning a second ring, a second title before KG & Ray retire? If Doc's answer is yes, I ask where he needs me to sign up. End of discussion.
* We haven't one a title in three seasons - could it hurt to try something different?

I'm pretty sure Doc and Pierce understand the concept of team and probably understand what is in the best interest of the Boston Celtics more than all of us combined. And because they do, Doc would NEVER ask Pierce to go to the bench. It would completely ruin the hierarchy that Doc has spent building in the locker room for the past 5 years. Like it or not, one really stupid move on a coach's part in ruining the chemistry in his locker room can unravel a team faster than bringing in bad players.

So could it hurt to try something different? YES ABSOLUTELY IT COULD. They have a winning formula. Injuries have mucked it up.


3. My own Estimation/Evaluation of Jeff Green -
* He didn't play that well last year but I doubt he could have come into a more difficult transitional situation than he did.
* Give a full year with Doc, whenever training camp starts and with our team, whenever - hopefully - the season starts.
* He's not a superstar but I can see him easily averaging 15-18 a night with 5-7 boards and improving defense.
* Green's speed up and down the court should also open Ray up a lot on the wings.
* Get Green and Rondo working more and more together because within a another 2-3 years that's what we're looking at as Pierce fades.

We need to start taking more and more of a load off the KG, Ray and Pierce if we want to extend their still very productive careers.

Let's get on with it. They still run the show when it matters most, but let's have the young legs carry more and more weight, especially during the season. The whole "team" will become stronger as a result.

Rondo and Jeff Green should do well on the break together, get us a lot of easy baskets as well.

Again with the running game and young legs...oy vey. Take a look at the champions over the last decade. Older teams. Older legs. Very little or no running games. Great half court offense with great defense.

Jeff Green is probably not worth the near $6 million a year qualifying offer he will have never mind a long term contract that could put into jeopardy the ability to land a quality big man like Dwight Howard. He's an okay, mid level player that will put up okay numbers on fairly mediocre to poor teams. He isn't worth the money or worth the time to invest in as a cornerstone for the future.

Look at Chris Bosh. Way better stats than Green. Way better player. He couldn't be the cornerstone of a franchise to win anything in Toronto. He goes to Miami and he's an afterthought of a 3rd option player.

And, again, Green isn't anywhere near the play Bosh is. He is not someone to build the future around. He is not a difference maker, but he sure will want to be paid like one.

I would offer him the deal we offered Glen Davis over the last few years take it or leave it. 2-3 years at $3 million a year. That's what he is worth. Why, because on this team, he's a bench player and that's what they make.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2011, 12:13:37 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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  Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should be considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.  

  That day may be coming sooner then many people here seem to think IMO.  While he is still very effective the Boston Celtics lack of athleticism at the 2/3 spot was almost crippling last season and isn't going to get better in the future as long as Ray Allen and Paul Pierce occupy those spots.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 12:16:53 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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 Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should bee considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.
You're right. And as soon as the Celtics find that next great player so that Pierce can step aside, I am sure he will.

That next great player is not Jeff Green.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 12:21:29 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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  I also think that the Rondo factor has to play into this at some point if he is indeed the PG of the future because he will never truly reach his potential as a player playing most of his minutes alongside a bunch of.....excuse me for saying this, geezers.  The Big Old Three aren't the future of this team in any way shape or form.

  Rondo may not be the future ether but at least that situation is up for debate.  The other certainly is not.  Fans may not want to think that way but if Ainge and Doc are competent at their respective jobs then they must think that way.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 12:26:40 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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 Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should bee considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.
You're right. And as soon as the Celtics find that next great player so that Pierce can step aside, I am sure he will.

That next great player is not Jeff Green.

  It doesn't necessarily need to be the next great player to make the team as a whole more effective.  Was Cedric Maxwell a great player when he was playing ahead of Kevin McHale?   Was Hondo still not one of the five best players on the Celtics when he was a great 6th man?   The Boston Celtics more so then any other team have proven you can win while not starting your best five players.

  I'm not saying Green is the answer.  There were a lot more questions then answers coming out of last season.   What I do know is a what we did last season wasn't goo enough and wont get it done with another year on the legs of the big three.  I am willing to see them try anything if it might lead to a better ending including giving Jeff Green a shot in the starting line up.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 12:27:55 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Why mess with the good part of the team?  


The starting 4.  



There needs to be solutions for the issues that do not take away from the strength.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 12:29:22 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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 Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should bee considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.
You're right. And as soon as the Celtics find that next great player so that Pierce can step aside, I am sure he will.

That next great player is not Jeff Green.

  It doesn't necessarily need to be the next great player to make the team as a whole more effective.  Was Cedric Maxwell a great player when he was playing ahead of Kevin McHale?   Was Hondo still not one of the five best players on the Celtics when he was a great 6th man?   The Boston Celtics more so then any other team have proven you can win while not starting your best five players.

Maxwell who was the Finals MVP is a bit different then Jeff Green. 

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 12:31:49 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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 I also think that the Rondo factor has to play into this at some point if he is indeed the PG of the future because he will never truly reach his potential as a player playing most of his minutes alongside a bunch of.....excuse me for saying this, geezers.  The Big Old Three aren't the future of this team in any way shape or form.

  Rondo may not be the future ether but at least that situation is up for debate.  The other certainly is not.  Fans may not want to think that way but if Ainge and Doc are competent at their respective jobs then they must think that way.
Rondo will reach his potential when he can hit an outside shot with regularity and shoot 70-75% from the free throw line.

His potential to be great has more to do with him and less to do with the Big Three because, quite honestly, as a PG, you want to pass the ball to people who can make shots. Last year:

Pierce had a TS% of .620.
Allen had a TS% of .615.
KG had a TS% of .575

Does it matter how old the players he is passing to are if they make shots at those unreal percentages?

Just because Rondo is young and can run doesn't mean the running game is the best way for him to reach his potential. The man averaged over 11 assists per game playing with players who could make shots at high percentages. The running game doesn't assure so many more easy baskets that it would offset the efficiency drop from Boston Celtics half court game that is anchored by the Big Three.

The Big Three's time is nearly over, but if this season returns, they deserve one more shot at a title run with the starters as starters. 2007-08 says they have earned that right. After that, change what needs to be changed.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 12:31:52 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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Why mess with the good part of the team?  


The starting 4.  



There needs to be solutions for the issues that do not take away from the strength.

  See I respectfully see things differently.  The Celtics last season were lacking in athleticism in the starting line up and more specifically at the wing spots.   Unless Pierce and Allen find the fountain of youth this off season then it will be even worse this coming season if we have one.

Re: Pierce, Ray and J. Green
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 12:36:24 PM »

Offline CelticsFanNC

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 Personally I think if Paul Pierce truly values his legacy as a Boston Celtic he will eventually appreciate the value of being the next great player to fill the role of 6th man on the Boston Celtics after the likes of John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton among others.

  I'm not saying it is something he should bee considering at this point but if he really wants to end his career in Boston and does appreciate his own legacy then it is something he should strongly consider down the line.

  He is not bigger then the Boston Celtics.
You're right. And as soon as the Celtics find that next great player so that Pierce can step aside, I am sure he will.

That next great player is not Jeff Green.

  It doesn't necessarily need to be the next great player to make the team as a whole more effective.  Was Cedric Maxwell a great player when he was playing ahead of Kevin McHale?   Was Hondo still not one of the five best players on the Celtics when he was a great 6th man?   The Boston Celtics more so then any other team have proven you can win while not starting your best five players.

Maxwell who was the Finals MVP is a bit different then Jeff Green.  

  That's true.  Still Maxwell was riding on the coat tails of Bird, Parish and Archibald.  He was far from a "future star" while it was quite evident even at that point that McHale, the 6th man was a better player then Maxwell.

  While Green also probably isn't a "future star" he may be completely capable of riding on the coat tails of better players much like Maxwell did.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 01:00:20 PM by CelticsFanNC »