Good News. Labor deal is 95.632% complete

[indeedproceed]

Well considering the owners' 'take it by wednesday or we're just going to start offering less' ultimatum, seems like they're both pulling out their mutually assured destruction toolboxes. Gross.

[chambers]

I'm still hoping that this ultimatum is Sterns cue to step in and persuade the owners into making a deal. The script is building up perfectly, like something out of Hollywood.

All hope is lost and then...
Stern to the rescue as always.
 I don't give up hope until it gets to a point where they can't fit in a larger regular season schedule.

[hwangjini_1]

well, for the sake of an argument (what else is there to do about the nba at this point) let us assume this particular long national nightmare takes place. let's assume there is no nba for the 2011-2012 season.

my question is, what next? i think that the owners will trot out the nba in 2012-2013, reduce player payroll etc etc etc. that is, without the players to argue with, they will set the rules as they see fit.

at that point, what do the majority of the ex-nba players do? what do the superstars do? i dont see how the players can win in 2012 if they dont win in 2011.

true, at first a number of the players may be ex-starters for the nbdl, europe, etc. but the owners will be able to fill out rosters. i doubt college kids will turn down the nba for long either.

 i expect many of the non-superstar players to start crossing picket lines and playing games.

the quality of the basketball played will probably drop in that superstars may not slam dunk every night. but who knows? maybe the nba will be more like college ball and a team approach will rule the day. (doubtful i know)

i expect the nba to be back by 2012. pro basketball will return.

my real questions are about who will be playing. i think in addition to the marginal players, a good number of mid-talent players will cross the line, or go to europe. i would also not be surprised if the stars decide that a big paycheck is preferable to no paycheck. but which ones?

for those who dont want the nba, the european leagues may pay big salaries for some stars. this is all hard to predict.

and another question we can ask is.....do we here at cb cheer for celtics if they come out with an entirely different set of players? ha, if i knew how to make polls here i would do so for this question.

right now, i am just speculating on the future for the sake of something to do.

[hpantazo]

My question is, what can we reasonably expect wednesday? All the reports are about doom and gloom and the loss of the season. If so, why even give a wednesday deadline? What's the point, didn't the NBAPA already reject the curent offer on saturday? What do the owners expect to happen? Is there any reasonable possibility that both sides are just staring each other down and will give in to reason on wednesday or is it another arbitrary deadline with no real consequences, or is it really the day we lose the season?

[The Walker Wiggle]

Ken Berger continues to produce the best lockout reportage. Here's a long excerpt from his latest.

• Federal mediator George Cohen must call both parties Monday and summon them to his Washington, D.C., office for around-the-clock talks aimed at exhausting every avenue for a deal before Stern's artificial deadline arrives. If either party declines, it must be prepared to explain to the public why. Regardless of any petition, any inflammatory speeches by Kessler or any sensationalized agendas of star players and their agents that drown out the priorities of the rank and file, the National Basketball Players Association is the only body currently authorized to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement with the NBA. Short of a disclaimer of interest on the part of union leadership, this is the case from now until Wednesday and beyond -- all the way to at least January, the time frame during which the season can still be saved.

• While Fisher, Hunter, union attorneys, players on the executive committee, Stern and deputy commissioner Adam Silver face public accountability for this fiasco, the owners pushing the hardline negotiating strategy hide behind the commissioner-imposed gag order designed to protect them. Spurs owner Peter Holt, the chairman of the labor relations committee and, according to multiple sources, among the hardest of hardline owners, has spoken publicly about the negotiations exactly once. If the owners continue to resist the final push of compromise that would finish the deal, this amnesty from accountability can no longer be tolerated.

Among the most intractable owners, according to sources -- Paul Allen, Dan Gilbert, Robert Sarver, Michael Heisley, Ted Leonsis, Mikhail Prokhorov (yes, him), and now we learn, Michael Jordan -- only Heisley has faced any kind of public backlash. The Grizzlies owner, who admitted last week he doesn't even know what's going on in the negotiations, has been the only one to face a potential challenge in the form of a possible lawsuit by the city of Memphis to recoup losses sustained by a prolonged lockout. Prokhorov, who according to sources is fine with a strategy that would blow up his mediocre team's last season in Newark, is lucky in that he doesn't really have a fan base to hold him accountable. But where are the city attorneys, district attorneys, attorneys general and editorial page writers in some of those other cities to ask who's going to refund taxpayer money that's funding empty basketball arenas during a canceled season?

"The owners who are saying this isn't enough, stop hiding behind David Stern and stand in front of your communities and say why," one agent said. "If I hear one more person say they feel bad for parking lot attendants, I'm going to be sick. Do something. The parking lot attendant doesn't feel better when you say that. Stand up and take responsibility."

If Jordan, the reported ringleader of the hardliners, took responsibility, it would be a first. His Don't-Care-Ness couldn't even muster the courage to speak more than a few words in the eight-hour bargaining session Saturday, according to multiple people in the meeting.

"The reason you own an NBA team is because of what basketball has given to you," one of the agents said. "Just like you're allowed an opinion, I think the city of Charlotte is entitled to an explanation. One of greatest players of all time, who's made a fortune off the sport of basketball -- and now you're going to be responsible for destroying it?"

• While it's unlikely a groundswell among players could gain enough momentum by Wednesday to bring the owners' proposal to a ratification vote, players who aren't comfortable with decertification or want more information about what the league is offering should speak out -- publicly, by name and on the record. Until then, the opinions and priorities of rank-and-file players will continue to be drowned out by superstar tweets about decertifying. It's the irony of social media: while players have more opportunity than ever to have their voices heard, the filter weeds out the ordinary and amplifies the stars.

"Players are all across the board, but with one consistency -- they're all angry," one agent said. "They don't necessarily know if they should decertify or not decertify, but everyone's angry with this situation. It boils over. ... Rationality has totally left the building on both sides.

"The only rational solution at this stage is, 'Why aren't you still in a room talking?' " he said. "Why aren't you still with George Cohen and negotiating?"

[fairweatherfan]

Owners are reportedly open to some "minor system tweaks" before Wednesday:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/report-owners-could-be-open-to-minor-system-tweaks?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I hope this happens - it's the only way the players can accept the deal while still saving face.  Stern backed them into a corner with the ultimatum, and getting some 11th hour concessions could give them an out to take the offer without seeming weak. 

Of course, the way things have gone so far they'll probably firebomb the conference room instead.

[Chris]

Owners are reportedly open to some "minor system tweaks" before Wednesday:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/report-owners-could-be-open-to-minor-system-tweaks?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I hope this happens - it's the only way the players can accept the deal while still saving face.  Stern backed them into a corner with the ultimatum, and getting some 11th hour concessions could give them an out to take the offer without seeming weak. 

Of course, the way things have gone so far they'll probably firebomb the conference room instead.

If this is true, it is a very good negotiating strategy.  The players were stuck where they were, so they ruffle their feathers, bluff on an ultimatum, and then let them have a small victory, in order to bring them those last few inches.

Not sure it will work, but it seems like it would be more productive then having both sides continue to stare at each other in a room, with no movement.

[thirstyboots18]

I may have mentioned this before.  Paul Pressey said,  on "SheridanHoops" that the owners could offer full payment of player salaries this year, regardless of how many games are actually played, could sway the players while not compromising the rest of the contract. 

I don't know if the players would agree to this, buy he thinks it would save them face.

[fairweatherfan]

Owners are reportedly open to some "minor system tweaks" before Wednesday:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/report-owners-could-be-open-to-minor-system-tweaks?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I hope this happens - it's the only way the players can accept the deal while still saving face.  Stern backed them into a corner with the ultimatum, and getting some 11th hour concessions could give them an out to take the offer without seeming weak. 

Of course, the way things have gone so far they'll probably firebomb the conference room instead.

If this is true, it is a very good negotiating strategy.  The players were stuck where they were, so they ruffle their feathers, bluff on an ultimatum, and then let them have a small victory, in order to bring them those last few inches.

Not sure it will work, but it seems like it would be more productive then having both sides continue to stare at each other in a room, with no movement.

I don't know how good the strategy is in a vacuum except that it's much, much better than giving a group of ultra-competitive, prideful men a public ultimatum and not moving on it.  I hope this was Stern's plan all along because otherwise it was a horrible idea and the season will probably be lost.

Something as small as letting luxury tax payers get a full MLE could make this deal.  Let's hope.

[Chris]

Owners are reportedly open to some "minor system tweaks" before Wednesday:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/report-owners-could-be-open-to-minor-system-tweaks?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I hope this happens - it's the only way the players can accept the deal while still saving face.  Stern backed them into a corner with the ultimatum, and getting some 11th hour concessions could give them an out to take the offer without seeming weak. 

Of course, the way things have gone so far they'll probably firebomb the conference room instead.

If this is true, it is a very good negotiating strategy.  The players were stuck where they were, so they ruffle their feathers, bluff on an ultimatum, and then let them have a small victory, in order to bring them those last few inches.

Not sure it will work, but it seems like it would be more productive then having both sides continue to stare at each other in a room, with no movement.

I don't know how good the strategy is in a vacuum except that it's much, much better than giving a group of ultra-competitive, prideful men a public ultimatum and not moving on it.  I hope this was Stern's plan all along because otherwise it was a horrible idea and the season will probably be lost.

Something as small as letting luxury tax payers get a full MLE could make this deal.  Let's hope.

While I can't say whether this was Sterns plan, I feel incredibly confident that his plan was not to give the ultimatum, and hold to it.

He is too smart a guy, and too good a negotiator to do that.  Whether it was meant to set up the next move this week, or a month down the line, I am not sure.  But its pretty clear to me, it was not meant as the end-game it was presented as. 

[hpantazo]

interesting quote from Matt Harping's Twitter:

"mharpring15 matt harpring
 by SpearsNBAYahoo
are players confused? Agents and Union works for the players, NOT the other way around. Use the voices you were given and demand a vote!!"

I have to say I agree with him.

[Chris]

interesting quote from Matt Harping's Twitter:

"mharpring15 matt harpring
 by SpearsNBAYahoo
are players confused? Agents and Union works for the players, NOT the other way around. Use the voices you were given and demand a vote!!"

I have to say I agree with him.

I agree with him as well.  Whether they think it is a good deal or not, players should have the right to vote on it. 

And, if it really is as bad a deal as some of the players are saying, then it will be voted down, and that will give the players some extra leverage, since right now, I think the owners genuinely believe that the union is breaking, and that if the players vote, more than half of them will vote for just about anything that will get the paychecks coming in again.

[LB3533]

Harpring doesn't even play anymore, if he was playing he would be one of the middle class NBA players who would get reamed in this new deal.

I don't understand how the lesser players can agree to a worse deal...it makes no sense!

[Chris]

Harpring doesn't even play anymore, if he was playing he would be one of the middle class NBA players who would get reamed in this new deal.

I don't understand how the lesser players can agree to a worse deal...it makes no sense!

Because they know its not going to get any better...or at least better enough to make it worth the lost salary from holding out even longer.

[hpantazo]

Harpring doesn't even play anymore, if he was playing he would be one of the middle class NBA players who would get reamed in this new deal.

I don't understand how the lesser players can agree to a worse deal...it makes no sense!

Because they know its not going to get any better...or at least better enough to make it worth the lost salary from holding out even longer.

Exactly. Maybe they don't want to end up like the NHL players who had a better deal on the table than what they ended up with after missing a year of salaries.