Some interesting notes on Rondos jumpshooting from ESPN

[Kiorrik]

Rondo is a funny case. He's perceived as arrogant, but is really insecure about certain aspects of his own game. A walking contradiction.

In his mind his jumper must be a 30% chance, whereas a ridiculous pass is a 50% one.

Realizing I'm hardly a pro, I pass up jumpers all the time on the court. Don't trust my shot either, and it gets to the point where I have an open shot, and still wonder whether or not I should pass it to the guy under the basket (with 2 guys around him.)

It's a bit like being able to see EVERYTHING: everyone's skills, strengths and weaknesses, except for your owns.

Nasty.

[paulcowens]

My biggest concern about Rondo isn't his shooting, though I think he has to get better there, and surely he will.  My biggest concern is his lack of consistency.  He just seems to play lethargically much of the time, and as someone pointed out above, he's a player who really needs to in constant motion to be effective.  Well, it's a little more complicated than that, because part of his game involves lulling the opposition, and some of his apparent lethargy comes from that.  Let's just say that a lot of the time Rondo seems to turn the virtue of lulling the opposition into the vice of playing lethargically and predictably.  We've all seen so many games where he walks the ball up and stands around, eating up shot clock, and killing the offense's dynamism.  THIS IS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM THAN HIS SHOOTING.

But, you know, i've never seen a perfect player.  Have you?   It's just clear, to me at least,  from many of the comments on this thread, that a lot of Celtics fans are hellbent on scapegoating our younger players, out of frustration over the way the past four seasons have gone.  Let's face it:  this team should have won more than one championship.  We all know this.  It's not just that they have a staggering level of talent - FOUR ALL STARS - but that this staggering level of talent often blended to perfection.  And somehow it's just easier to pin the blame on the young guys, than to question the Big Three, or Danny, or Doc.  And I suppose there is some logic to that, in that the young guys are sort of disposable, more so than the Big three and Rivers/Danny.    But it wasn't Rondo who disrupted the team massively just as the playoffs approached.  It wasn't Big Baby.  It wasn't even Jeff Green.    That was a decision that Danny Ainge made (I wonder, though, if it was really Wyc) and that Doc defended.   And does it really not occur to any of you that we have some serious coaching problems?   Our bigs, other than Garnett,  and JO,  have been underperforming as rebounders and post scorers;  our young guys are underperforming;  our bench is underperforming.  Is there not a pattern?  Might it have something to do with coaching?  Doc is great with the vets and with Xs and Os, but not so good with the young ones and the bench, it seems.

The best thing we have going for us, for the future,  is that we have an amazingly talented kid to build around, who is tough and motivated, and who actually has his own vision, his own ideas about basketball, good ideas.  Unfortunately, everyone seems hellbent on looking a gift horse in the mouth.  And really, many of the criticisms that come up here are ludicrous.  Even if Rondo doesn't shoot better, he's an elite point guard, especially if he focuses more consistently.  But if the past predicts the future at all, Rondo being clearly a player who gets better and better, chances are good that he will improve a lot as a scorer.  One has to compile elaborate arguments to 'prove' that he surely won't improve as a shooter and scorer. 

And then there are complaints that Rondo isn't humble enough.  !!!  Right, so the world of elite athletics really attracts paragons of humility?!  Or that he passes too much.  Or that he tries passes that are too difficult.  Basically, I think a lot of folks, aside from wanting to scapegoat Rondo, just don't like him because he is DIFFERENT.  He marches to a different drummer, and a lot of people just don't like that, it seems to me.

[PosImpos]

My biggest concern about Rondo isn't his shooting, though I think he has to get better there, and surely he will.  My biggest concern is his lack of consistency.  He just seems to play lethargically much of the time, and as someone pointed out above, he's a player who really needs to in constant motion to be effective.  Well, it's a little more complicated than that, because part of his game involves lulling the opposition, and some of his apparent lethargy comes from that.  Let's just say that a lot of the time Rondo seems to turn the virtue of lulling the opposition into the vice of playing lethargically and predictably.  We've all seen so many games where he walks the ball up and stands around, eating up shot clock, and killing the offense's dynamism.  THIS IS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM THAN HIS SHOOTING.

But, you know, i've never seen a perfect player.  Have you?   It's just clear, to me at least,  from many of the comments on this thread, that a lot of Celtics fans are hellbent on scapegoating our younger players, out of frustration over the way the past four seasons have gone.  Let's face it:  this team should have won more than one championship.  We all know this.  It's not just that they have a staggering level of talent - FOUR ALL STARS - but that this staggering level of talent often blended to perfection.  And somehow it's just easier to pin the blame on the young guys, than to question the Big Three, or Danny, or Doc.  And I suppose there is some logic to that, in that the young guys are sort of disposable, more so than the Big three and Rivers/Danny.    But it wasn't Rondo who disrupted the team massively just as the playoffs approached.  It wasn't Big Baby.  It wasn't even Jeff Green.    That was a decision that Danny Ainge made (I wonder, though, if it was really Wyc) and that Doc defended.   And does it really not occur to any of you that we have some serious coaching problems?   Our bigs, other than Garnett,  and JO,  have been underperforming as rebounders and post scorers;  our young guys are underperforming;  our bench is underperforming.  Is there not a pattern?  Might it have something to do with coaching?  Doc is great with the vets and with Xs and Os, but not so good with the young ones and the bench, it seems.

The best thing we have going for us, for the future,  is that we have an amazingly talented kid to build around, who is tough and motivated, and who actually has his own vision, his own ideas about basketball, good ideas.  Unfortunately, everyone seems hellbent on looking a gift horse in the mouth.  And really, many of the criticisms that come up here are ludicrous.  Even if Rondo doesn't shoot better, he's an elite point guard, especially if he focuses more consistently.  But if the past predicts the future at all, Rondo being clearly a player who gets better and better, chances are good that he will improve a lot as a scorer.  One has to compile elaborate arguments to 'prove' that he surely won't improve as a shooter and scorer. 

And then there are complaints that Rondo isn't humble enough.  !!!  Right, so the world of elite athletics really attracts paragons of humility?!  Or that he passes too much.  Or that he tries passes that are too difficult.  Basically, I think a lot of folks, aside from wanting to scapegoat Rondo, just don't like him because he is DIFFERENT.  He marches to a different drummer, and a lot of people just don't like that, it seems to me.

P.C., why do you always seem to be so full of rage?

[Celtics18]

My biggest concern about Rondo isn't his shooting, though I think he has to get better there, and surely he will.  My biggest concern is his lack of consistency.  He just seems to play lethargically much of the time, and as someone pointed out above, he's a player who really needs to in constant motion to be effective.  Well, it's a little more complicated than that, because part of his game involves lulling the opposition, and some of his apparent lethargy comes from that.  Let's just say that a lot of the time Rondo seems to turn the virtue of lulling the opposition into the vice of playing lethargically and predictably.  We've all seen so many games where he walks the ball up and stands around, eating up shot clock, and killing the offense's dynamism.  THIS IS A MUCH BIGGER PROBLEM THAN HIS SHOOTING.

But, you know, i've never seen a perfect player.  Have you?   It's just clear, to me at least,  from many of the comments on this thread, that a lot of Celtics fans are hellbent on scapegoating our younger players, out of frustration over the way the past four seasons have gone.  Let's face it:  this team should have won more than one championship.  We all know this.  It's not just that they have a staggering level of talent - FOUR ALL STARS - but that this staggering level of talent often blended to perfection.  And somehow it's just easier to pin the blame on the young guys, than to question the Big Three, or Danny, or Doc.  And I suppose there is some logic to that, in that the young guys are sort of disposable, more so than the Big three and Rivers/Danny.    But it wasn't Rondo who disrupted the team massively just as the playoffs approached.  It wasn't Big Baby.  It wasn't even Jeff Green.    That was a decision that Danny Ainge made (I wonder, though, if it was really Wyc) and that Doc defended.   And does it really not occur to any of you that we have some serious coaching problems?   Our bigs, other than Garnett,  and JO,  have been underperforming as rebounders and post scorers;  our young guys are underperforming;  our bench is underperforming.  Is there not a pattern?  Might it have something to do with coaching?  Doc is great with the vets and with Xs and Os, but not so good with the young ones and the bench, it seems.

The best thing we have going for us, for the future,  is that we have an amazingly talented kid to build around, who is tough and motivated, and who actually has his own vision, his own ideas about basketball, good ideas.  Unfortunately, everyone seems hellbent on looking a gift horse in the mouth.  And really, many of the criticisms that come up here are ludicrous.  Even if Rondo doesn't shoot better, he's an elite point guard, especially if he focuses more consistently.  But if the past predicts the future at all, Rondo being clearly a player who gets better and better, chances are good that he will improve a lot as a scorer.  One has to compile elaborate arguments to 'prove' that he surely won't improve as a shooter and scorer. 

And then there are complaints that Rondo isn't humble enough.  !!!  Right, so the world of elite athletics really attracts paragons of humility?!  Or that he passes too much.  Or that he tries passes that are too difficult.  Basically, I think a lot of folks, aside from wanting to scapegoat Rondo, just don't like him because he is DIFFERENT.  He marches to a different drummer, and a lot of people just don't like that, it seems to me.

I don't buy the premise that our young players underperformed as a whole last year. 

Obviously, there seems to be a definite feeling that Glen Davis underperformed last year.  Also, it can be said that Jeff Green underperformed, although, he was put in a very difficult position, from an expectation standpoint. 

Avery Bradley didn't contribute much at all, which I think was pretty much what the expectations were for him coming in.

The rest of the guys that I would categorize as young players all performed above expectations as far as I'm concerned.  Semih Erden, Luke Harangody, and Von Wafer all gave meaningful contributions at some point during the season.  Even Chris Johnson came in and performed while he was with us for a ten day contract or two. 

[cman88]

id say that Glen Davis performed pretty well for at least 3/4 of the year...he was even in consideration for 6th man....he did stink it up in the playoffs though and that killed us because we needed offense to come from somewhere else than the big 3

[greenpride32]

id say that Glen Davis performed pretty well for at least 3/4 of the year...he was even in consideration for 6th man....he did stink it up in the playoffs though and that killed us because we needed offense to come from somewhere else than the big 3

It's all perception.  Davis got hurt late in the year and was never the same when he came back.  Same thing happend with Krstic.  But all the fans on these boards are all over them.  Do you think it's possible they just weren't 100% when they came back?

But when it's the Golden Rondo; well blame his decline on his injuries.  He was an MVP candidate for the first 3 months of the season!  What good did that do us for the season?  Rondo couldn't even make a Team USA B-Team (the one all the big stars sat out).  But somehow he's still better than Rose, Westbrook, Paul, D-Will, Nash.  Guess who led the league in Steals?  It wasn't Rondo.  Guess who led in Assists?  It wasn't Rondo.  

Now I'm not here to trash Rondo, he's a very good player. But he is FAR FAR FAR from elite.  His PER last year was worse than PG's Devin Harris, Rodney Stucky, Ramon Sessions, Andre Miller, Ty Lawson.  Forget about even comparing it to CP3, Westbrook, Rose, D-Will, Nash, Parker, Curry who are top of the list.

[bfrombleacher]

id say that Glen Davis performed pretty well for at least 3/4 of the year...he was even in consideration for 6th man....he did stink it up in the playoffs though and that killed us because we needed offense to come from somewhere else than the big 3

It's all perception.  Davis got hurt late in the year and was never the same when he came back.  Same thing happend with Krstic.  But all the fans on these boards are all over them.  Do you think it's possible they just weren't 100% when they came back?

But when it's the Golden Rondo; well blame his decline on his injuries.  He was an MVP candidate for the first 3 months of the season!  What good did that do us for the season?  Rondo couldn't even make a Team USA B-Team (the one all the big stars sat out).  But somehow he's still better than Rose, Westbrook, Paul, D-Will, Nash.  Guess who led the league in Steals?  It wasn't Rondo.  Guess who led in Assists?  It wasn't Rondo.  

Now I'm not here to trash Rondo, he's a very good player. But he is FAR FAR FAR from elite.  His PER last year was worse than PG's Devin Harris, Rodney Stucky, Ramon Sessions, Andre Miller, Ty Lawson.  Forget about even comparing it to CP3, Westbrook, Rose, D-Will, Nash, Parker, Curry who are top of the list.

PER is skewed towards scoring I believe.

[BballTim]

But when it's the Golden Rondo; well blame his decline on his injuries.  He was an MVP candidate for the first 3 months of the season!  What good did that do us for the season?

  For starters we were top seed in the east when he was healthy. How much more could it do for us?

Rondo couldn't even make a Team USA B-Team (the one all the big stars sat out).  But somehow he's still better than Rose, Westbrook, Paul, D-Will, Nash.

  Who really cares about team usa? He wasn't the style of pg they were looking for. They don't run a real offense, mainly isolation and three pointers. Players that can create their own shot and good spot up three point shooters were desired, not point guards that are better at running an offense.

Guess who led the league in Steals?  It wasn't Rondo.  Guess who led in Assists?  It wasn't Rondo.  

  Nash plays on a team that plays at at a faster pace than the Celts and his teammates shoot more and pass less compared to the big three. What does it say that Nash edged out Rondo in assists? What does it say that Rondo was comfortably ahead in assists for most of the year? What does it say that Rondo led the league in steals when he was healthy, or that he made 1st team all-defense over the steals leader?

Now I'm not here to trash Rondo, he's a very good player. But he is FAR FAR FAR from elite.  His PER last year was worse than PG's Devin Harris, Rodney Stucky, Ramon Sessions, Andre Miller, Ty Lawson.  Forget about even comparing it to CP3, Westbrook, Rose, D-Will, Nash, Parker, Curry who are top of the list.

  PER is a measure of individual production that's fairly heavily skewed towards scoring. How does PER account for Rondo's defense? How does it account for the fact that Paul and Ray have much  higher fg% and better 3 point shooting when Rondo plays? How does it account for all the players that had the most efficient scoring years of their career playing with Rondo this year? Some people look at a player's stats to decide how well they play, some people look at the player's impact on the game. If you're playing fantasy basketball Rondo's one of the last point guards you want. If you're looking to win games he's much closer to the top of the list.
 

[bfrombleacher]

  For starters we were top seed in the east when he was healthy. How much more could it do for us?

I think Shaq provided a good inside connection for Rondo so it was not all because of Rondo. But I'd say Rondo had a huge role in it and that we could have continued being top seed if we had some inside scoring. Hell, maybe a healthy Krstic would've lifted us. But we had nobody to penetrate/bang it down low and I think Rondo desperately needs that to function.

Jeff Green? Maybe next season. He wasn't even part of the system last season. Rondo pick and roll with Green might be worth something though.

[BballTim]

  For starters we were top seed in the east when he was healthy. How much more could it do for us?

I think Shaq provided a good inside connection for Rondo so it was not all because of Rondo. But I'd say Rondo had a huge role in it and that we could have continued being top seed if we had some inside scoring. Hell, maybe a healthy Krstic would've lifted us. But we had nobody to penetrate/bang it down low and I think Rondo desperately needs that to function.

Jeff Green? Maybe next season. He wasn't even part of the system last season. Rondo pick and roll with Green might be worth something though.

  I'm not saying that all of our success was due to Rondo. But it seems silly to say "where did that get us" when we were top seed in the east and probably the best team in the league.

[ballin]

  For starters we were top seed in the east when he was healthy. How much more could it do for us?

I think Shaq provided a good inside connection for Rondo so it was not all because of Rondo. But I'd say Rondo had a huge role in it and that we could have continued being top seed if we had some inside scoring. Hell, maybe a healthy Krstic would've lifted us. But we had nobody to penetrate/bang it down low and I think Rondo desperately needs that to function.

Jeff Green? Maybe next season. He wasn't even part of the system last season. Rondo pick and roll with Green might be worth something though.

  I'm not saying that all of our success was due to Rondo. But it seems silly to say "where did that get us" when we were top seed in the east and probably the best team in the league.

No, that actually would have been KG, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Shaq.

The team got worse went Shaq went down and Glen "the worst center ever" Davis took all of his minutes. Really didn't have much to do with Rondo at all.

Remember, Shaq had a higher PER AND W/S PER 48 than Rondo last year. When he went down, he was replaced with Glen Davis, whose PER and w/s per 48 etc. etc. were all terrible. Ironically, the only time when Glen Davis actually was making himself useful was when Shaq was healthy.

That right there explains what happened for the rest of the season including the playoffs. You don't beat a team with Lebron, Wade, and Bosh when Glen Davis is playing starter's minutes, and that's the end of the story.

[BballTim]

  For starters we were top seed in the east when he was healthy. How much more could it do for us?

I think Shaq provided a good inside connection for Rondo so it was not all because of Rondo. But I'd say Rondo had a huge role in it and that we could have continued being top seed if we had some inside scoring. Hell, maybe a healthy Krstic would've lifted us. But we had nobody to penetrate/bang it down low and I think Rondo desperately needs that to function.

Jeff Green? Maybe next season. He wasn't even part of the system last season. Rondo pick and roll with Green might be worth something though.

  I'm not saying that all of our success was due to Rondo. But it seems silly to say "where did that get us" when we were top seed in the east and probably the best team in the league.

No, that actually would have been KG, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Shaq.

  Haha.

The team got worse went Shaq went down and Glen "the worst center ever" Davis took all of his minutes. Really didn't have much to do with Rondo at all.

  After Shaq went down the Celts won 14 of their next 20. I'd say that when Rondo was out of the lineup or limited from injuries the Celts were winning less than 70% of their games.

Remember, Shaq had a higher PER AND W/S PER 48 than Rondo last year.

  Aside from the fact that those stats only measure individual productivity and not how well you play, you also need to remember that those are per48 numbers and Shaq was only playing about 20 minutes a game.

[cman88]

I find it kind of funny people mentioning Curry and Westbrook as better than rondo?? did any of you watch the games? most people were complaining that westbrook took too many shots and killed his team in the playoffs...PER isnt everything..

looking at the bigger picture, Rondo takes around 9shots a game while someone like westbrook is the #2 option. If(and when he does) rondo takes around 20shots a game, I would suspect his PER and scoring would be higher

theres 2 "real point guards" who i would say are better than rondo..Chris paul and Deron Williams....Rose is more of a SG in a point guards body..and isnt the playmaker rondo is

to claim Rondo had no real "effect" on the celtics being the best team in the east is another case of "ignoring the facts" while he didnt make a big impact in scoring..Rondo was responsible for 47% of the celtics offense when on the court.

did anyone remember the games with Nate robinson or Delonte starting?? our assists went down and the offense floundered...t

For people who love to use PER and other stats to claim why rondo isnt a good player, you guys sure ignore alot of other facts and stats..

fact is, KG, PP, RA are still allstar calibar players...BUT they are getting older and cant create offense and carry games the way they used to....Rondo's improvements as a player are what have kept them at a competitive level. it cant be a coincidence that PP, RA and KG have record shooting years as Rondo becomes one of the best passing point guards...theres less of a burden on them to create their own shots. They can simply get open and knock down the open jumper/layup

[greenpride32]

PER isn't everything but it's something you can measure players by.  You can basically take any measure you want (such as EPSN's ranking which they just call ESPN) and the results are more or less the same. 

What's wrong with a PG scoring?  Some of the best PG's in history that come to mind are Cousey, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, and they call could score the ball.  And don't tell me those guys couldn't pass either and didn't get their teammates easy buckets.

[BballTim]

PER isn't everything but it's something you can measure players by.

  Measuring players by PER will tell you that Zach Randolph is a better player than Bill Russell was.

 

You can basically take any measure you want (such as EPSN's ranking which they just call ESPN) and the results are more or less the same.  

  That would be because they're generally similar formulas. And, again, they mainly measure individual offensive production.

What's wrong with a PG scoring?  Some of the best PG's in history that come to mind are Cousey, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, and they call could score the ball.  And don't tell me those guys couldn't pass either and didn't get their teammates easy buckets.

  There's nothing wrong with a pg scoring. Oddly enough, there's nothing wrong with a pg passing the ball either.