2011 CB draft: How does my team look?/division rankings

[Kane3387]

Getting away from the post, means getting away from what separates us from other teams.

It'll be our commitment there which'll allow us to succeed.

And that doesn't mean 'ignoring Parker & Gay'

Parker and Gay are best with the ball in their hands, and not nearly as good as Randolph off the ball.  Offensive rebounding and put-backs are what he does best, despite having a very good face-up game.  Your team is too good to be centered around Zach Randolph, and Gasol isn't consistent enough yet.  With your other options that'd be a mistake in my opinion.

Actually Gay is a pretty willing 3rd option as I illustrated earlier and plays perfectly well and consistently without needing the ball too much. In fact, he's done all this with the bargain basement version of TP-- Mike Conley-- as his PG.

Is this the pick 2 draft? Why am I spending so much time defending Gay?

When has Gay ever been a 3rd option on offense, or even the second?

When pau gasol was there...

[Donoghus]

From a competive standpoint.

Stongest Division- Atlantic

Weakest Division- Southeast

[wdleehi]

From a competive standpoint.

Stongest Division- Atlantic

Weakest Division- Southeast

Well, if more posters read the pressers...



I hate being in the weakest division.  The arguments are weak.

[StartOrien]

Getting away from the post, means getting away from what separates us from other teams.

It'll be our commitment there which'll allow us to succeed.

And that doesn't mean 'ignoring Parker & Gay'

Parker and Gay are best with the ball in their hands, and not nearly as good as Randolph off the ball.  Offensive rebounding and put-backs are what he does best, despite having a very good face-up game.  Your team is too good to be centered around Zach Randolph, and Gasol isn't consistent enough yet.  With your other options that'd be a mistake in my opinion.

Thanks for your opinion. But we have two different opinions on how to operate my and Action's team.

[StartOrien]

But I do think there was decidedly more attention and time given to the pressers on the first two days, and it's much easier to say "Oh, just have fun" when you're near the top of everyone's list with little to prove, or not invested at all.

I'm not sure what happened with the press conferences today.  I was shocked by how dead they were, but a lot of that has to do with the GMs in the divisions not participating as much.  On previous days, IP, StartOrien, Kane, etc., were extremely vocal in defending their teams.  Today, I think through pure coincidence that a lot of the GMs couldn't spend as much time on the blog. 

I also agree that a lot of folks had their minds made up, and were anxious to get on to the voting.  I wish there was a great way to combat against this, but I'm not sure that there is.  That's why my suggestion as that you do the press conferences as a labor of love, more than anything else.  (I know that nobody ever read the stats, watched the videos, or really read most of the arguments from my past press conferences.  Still, it's fun to talk about your vision, even if only a handful of folks are paying attention.)

I'll say this, I felt like, atleast at the start of the day in all the press conferences a lot of questions were being asked without answers. Not that they were being dodged - I'm pretty sure those gm's weren't in the room - but a lot more questions were coming out than answers. And I think people that are around get a little bored, and start to get more involved in other threads.

-----

As far as getting people to change their mind; I think you have to make a clear and concise argument. People work, people have things to do, there's a billion other sites on the internet.

If you have some points to make, make them, but make them quickly and concisely. You can always elaborate a little when you're asking questions.

This sites relatively a social experience. If you were at a bar, and you were having a debate, you wouldn't want to hear a guy talk for 30 minutes straight on why he thinks John Stockton's the best PG.

Bahku, as you pointed out, you really wanted to lay your case out extensively becuase you didn't have the chance to say it before. Likewise, I don't have the time to read 24 extensive press conferences in 3 days.

[Fafnir]

Boozer's huge advantage in efficiency, coupled with his similar per-game averages, makes him at the very least an equal player to Randolph.

I guess I just completely disagree with your assessment of Carlos Boozer.

Well, some things aren't disputable:

1. Boozer is an extremely efficient player;

2. Boozer is a very good rebounder;

3. Boozer is one of the more prolific offensive power forwards in the NBA;

4. Boozer has playoff averages of 18 / 12, and he's only lost in the first round once.

Nothing says you have to love the guy, but it's a little shocking to me to hear somebody say they hate the game of a very efficient, productive player who has a good inside-outside game, and who consistently produces in the playoffs.

But for what you're asking him to do, I'd much rather take a dozen 'lesser talented' PF's in a later round. What he's providing isn't unique enough where I feel great about having him on my team.

Elite rebounding + elite efficiency + post scoring are pretty valuable skills, I think. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but it's just shocking to see a guy who has had statistical and playoff success downgraded so severely that he drags his team down to worst in the league status.

Especially considering how similar Boozer is to Z-Bo.

[Fafnir]

Almost every pundit has already named him as "Rookie of the Year", and that's extraordinary in this talent-rich market. But that's what an amazing talent he is, and also what an aggressive, never-shied-away-from-anything kind of phenom he is, (he has also won just about every award a college player can win - seriously).

This has been called the worst draft in years, how is that talent rich? He never played PG in college I highly doubt he'll transition into an NBA point guard so smoothly.

PG isn't really my concern with the Heat though, instead I don't see how they'll defend well enough to be a playoff team.

I didn't say "talent rich draft", I said "talent rich market", meaning the last few years. Not everyone called this the worst draft in history, either, though you seem to keep standing on that pretty strongly.

If you look a little closer you'll find there's a ton of talent in this year's class ... don't believe everything you read and hear, especially some of the "experts" who rank the draft, check for yourself.

And no defense ... really? Lopez is ranked 9th among all Centers in steals, 12th in blocks, and 18th in rebounds; Hickson is ranked 8th among PFs in RBs, 21st in BLKs, and 25th in steals; Melo is ranked 3rd in RBs, 12th in blocks, and 14th in steals among SFs; Devin Harris is 24th in steals, 27th in blocks, and top 30 in Rbs; Bayless top 30 in both Rbs & Blks, top 40 in steals; Warrick in the top 40 among PFs in RBs and STLs; and Turner is ranked 24th in blocks among SGs. If you also check the presser on my rookies, you'll find some great defensive prospect there as well.

Yeah no defense, Lopez isn't a good defensive center, average at best, and the rest of the cast around him is worse. Not a good defensive front court, especially in this 24 team league.

Also when you're hyping Daniel Gibson's defense in your presser its hard to take seriously the rest of the hype when it comes to defense.

[KCattheStripe]

Getting away from the post, means getting away from what separates us from other teams.

It'll be our commitment there which'll allow us to succeed.

And that doesn't mean 'ignoring Parker & Gay'

Parker and Gay are best with the ball in their hands, and not nearly as good as Randolph off the ball.  Offensive rebounding and put-backs are what he does best, despite having a very good face-up game.  Your team is too good to be centered around Zach Randolph, and Gasol isn't consistent enough yet.  With your other options that'd be a mistake in my opinion.

Actually Gay is a pretty willing 3rd option as I illustrated earlier and plays perfectly well and consistently without needing the ball too much. In fact, he's done all this with the bargain basement version of TP-- Mike Conley-- as his PG.

Is this the pick 2 draft? Why am I spending so much time defending Gay?

When has Gay ever been a 3rd option on offense, or even the second?

Gay has been the second option-- which is what I meant to type-- the past two years with ZBO. And in fact, the start of last year and the year before that, he kind of was the 3rd option because of how good OJ thought he was and his insistence on jacking up shots.

[The Walker Wiggle]

Has voting begun?

[Bahku]

Almost every pundit has already named him as "Rookie of the Year", and that's extraordinary in this talent-rich market. But that's what an amazing talent he is, and also what an aggressive, never-shied-away-from-anything kind of phenom he is, (he has also won just about every award a college player can win - seriously).

This has been called the worst draft in years, how is that talent rich? He never played PG in college I highly doubt he'll transition into an NBA point guard so smoothly.

PG isn't really my concern with the Heat though, instead I don't see how they'll defend well enough to be a playoff team.

I didn't say "talent rich draft", I said "talent rich market", meaning the last few years. Not everyone called this the worst draft in history, either, though you seem to keep standing on that pretty strongly.

If you look a little closer you'll find there's a ton of talent in this year's class ... don't believe everything you read and hear, especially some of the "experts" who rank the draft, check for yourself.

And no defense ... really? Lopez is ranked 9th among all Centers in steals, 12th in blocks, and 18th in rebounds; Hickson is ranked 8th among PFs in RBs, 21st in BLKs, and 25th in steals; Melo is ranked 3rd in RBs, 12th in blocks, and 14th in steals among SFs; Devin Harris is 24th in steals, 27th in blocks, and top 30 in Rbs; Bayless top 30 in both Rbs & Blks, top 40 in steals; Warrick in the top 40 among PFs in RBs and STLs; and Turner is ranked 24th in blocks among SGs. If you also check the presser on my rookies, you'll find some great defensive prospect there as well.

Yeah no defense, Lopez isn't a good defensive center, average at best, and the rest of the cast around him is worse. Not a good defensive front court, especially in this 24 team league.

Also when you're hyping Daniel Gibson's defense in your presser its hard to take seriously the rest of the hype when it comes to defense.

Uh-huh. Shocked. (TP)

[Fafnir]

I'm serious when GMs hype up something that's just not in the cards for a player(Daniel Gibson's defense as a SG, shudder) its a turn off for me for the rest of their vision. It was a tiny part in your press conference but it really stuck out in my mind for some reason.

[Bahku]

I'm serious when GMs hype up something that's just not in the cards for a player(Daniel Gibson's defense as a SG, shudder) its a turn off for me for the rest of their vision. It was a tiny part in your press conference but it really stuck out in my mind for some reason.

Yeah, because you disagree with it ... I feel differently about Gibson, I wasn't just blowing sunshine. Doesn't mean ANYone has to agree with me, and I'm fine if no one does. I know enough about basketball to be confident about my assessments, but everyone sees players in a different light, and none of us agree on everything. I respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it ... maybe that's the difference. When someone has an opinion about a player that you disagree with, you just assume they must know nothing about the subject altogether, and dismiss everything else. Just because others see things differently, doesn't mean they're any more wrong, (or right), than you are.

[RebusRankin]

Boozer has usually made the play-offs while Randolph has not. Also to rank my team last in the conference based on you not liking two players is bunk.

[action781]

Wow, tons of chatter while I was out tonight and I have so much I'd like to respond to.

Firstly, in response to Z-Bo vs. Boozer... (of course)

I'd like to know if StartOrien and I are allowed two separate votes or if we need to form a single one together.  If it is one together, I am probably going to talk him into upgrading San Antonio.  I haven't fully analyzed the entire West, but I think that SA team is going to be a good regular season team.

I think StartOrien made one very good point that was largely ignored:  Boozer has had the benefit of playing alongside two elite level point guards.  And when I say elite, I mean indisputably one of the top 3 in the league.  Boozer is an excellent pick and roll guy and we haven't seen Westbrook thrive in that kind of game yet.

Still, I think Boozer is a very good regular season player.  Part of why StartOrien might not like Boozer (I don't know, we haven't discussed it) might be why my buddy hates Boozer and that is because he can't hang with the taller PFs in the playoffs.  I don't care what stats you bring Roy, this guy absolutely faded when matched up against taller PFs in Pau (2010) and Bosh (2011) and arguably was the weak link that led to the elimination of those teams, while he was supposed to be one of their top 2 players.  He also fared poorly against Pau in 2008.

Why I think Z-Bo is different is because he is unbelievably crafty near the rim.  He gets off these shots using his body and awkward releases that (seemingly miraciously, while consistently) go in and other bigs don't seem to affect Z-Bo (at least this postseason) the same way that Boozer has been shut down in those series during the past couple postseasons.

But I think Boozer is a very good regular season player and my weight on our team vote will likely bring SA up in our rankings.  And Boozer's fate in the playoffs, in my eyes, will depend on what teams SA gets matched up against and who is guarding him.

[action781]

Second, in response to pressers:

They take a lot of time to read and like I said, I spent 2-4 hours creating mine.  I didn't expect anybody to read the paragraph I wrote about Channing Frye because we all know what kind of player he is.

I don't feel like many people at all read my presser last year which was very detail and strategy oriented.  So I learned from that and based it more on pictures and honestly just had fun with it.

I realized last year that people have their opinions on players and pressers won't change that much.  I think it's the Q & A that change people's minds most.  Instigating and being active is a good way to get people to ask questions I've learned.

I was very proud of my Fisher-Kobe-Pietrus-Ty Thomas-Marc Gasol lineup last year even though I was a first round oust.  And I was sure to pay close attention and learn what gets votes and what doesn't as well as how to make the game more fun for myself and others this year (e.g. Keeping it Classy).  No matter how much I wrote about Ty Thomas as a solid defender or Marc Gasol as a legitimate offensive weapon in my presser, people either didn't read it or their minds weren't changed.  So I learned and strayed from that this season.

That said, I don't think we necessarily have to have a rule or ideology in place for what pressers should be like in the future, but I think people will kind of learn from themselves how to make it the most fun for themselves like I did.