Josh Smith rumor / Atlanta interested?

[nora gretz]

Bottom Line. Pull a Zydrunas.
Only trade KG from the big three, include the #25 & s&t another player not named Jeff Green.

a core of athletic players with a top 5 pass first pg (here's looking at you Derrick Rose) is more than enough incentive for Dwight "elbow anything that moves" Howard to sign with boston.

KG can always come back to the celtics by other means & never have to play a game for the hawks.

As Samuel L. Jackson said in "unthinkable", "there's a choice, a sacrifice that we all must make"

& if the only sacrifice this team has to make is trading KG who only had one 25+ pt game against Chris Bosh, & cannot block shots around the rim consistently (fast pg's & and-1's are rampant against the big ticket in the paint) then i'd do it in a heart beat.

Rondo
(austin rivers)
Green
Smith
Howard

is a pretty decent line up that has 2 all-star defenders, shot blockers & rebounders up front, with a top 5 pg & an athletic forward who can post up & exploit mismatches at the 3 spot.
this more than definitely extends our big three window.

the pride us celtics fans have by not trading one cornerstone piece of the puzzle that won us a title who's past his prime will be our downfall.

[BballTim]

Our best chance at a championship this year is with the current core. I wouldn't trade ray or kg for anyone.besides sg is probably our thinnest position.

Its more likely orlando trades for him imo

no it isn't.  Boston's core will not beat the Heat.  There has to be moves unless by some miracle another team knocks off Miami before Boston has to play them.

If I'm not mistaken a dallas team with not as many "star" peices as us just beat the heat...our best player who runs our offense was injured and we got nothing out of our bench. We have rond and play team ball like dallas and we could beatthe heat

Ray was our best player last season. You don't create new holes to create others. Our sg spot is thin.

Dirk is significantly better then anyone currently on the Celtics.  That is the difference.

  Boston, with a healthy pg and center, would have dispatched the Heat just like the Mavs did.

I think Boston with a healthy Shaq would have dispatched the Heat.

  Honestly a healthy JO would have done the trick.

[LilRip]

SIDENOTE: Why would the Hawks trade Josh Smith to Orlando?? Aren't they in the same division?No way do they do that.

[Roy H.]

Bottom Line. Pull a Zydrunas.
Only trade KG from the big three, include the #25 & s&t another player not named Jeff Green.

a core of athletic players with a top 5 pass first pg (here's looking at you Derrick Rose) is more than enough incentive for Dwight "elbow anything that moves" Howard to sign with boston.

KG can always come back to the celtics by other means & never have to play a game for the hawks.

As Samuel L. Jackson said in "unthinkable", "there's a choice, a sacrifice that we all must make"

& if the only sacrifice this team has to make is trading KG who only had one 25+ pt game against Chris Bosh, & cannot block shots around the rim consistently (fast pg's & and-1's are rampant against the big ticket in the paint) then i'd do it in a heart beat.

Rondo
(austin rivers)
Green
Smith
Howard

is a pretty decent line up that has 2 all-star defenders, shot blockers & rebounders up front, with a top 5 pg & an athletic forward who can post up & exploit mismatches at the 3 spot.
this more than definitely extends our big three window.

the pride us celtics fans have by not trading one cornerstone piece of the puzzle that won us a title who's past his prime will be our downfall.

There's no realistic way to afford that lineup.  We *might* be able to put together a Rondo / Smith / Howard core, but that would require Howard taking a pay cut and the Celts letting go of Green, Bradley, their pick this year, etc. 

The only way your scenario works is if we trade Pierce to a team willing to absorb salary.

[nora gretz]

Bottom Line. Pull a Zydrunas.
Only trade KG from the big three, include the #25 & s&t another player not named Jeff Green.

a core of athletic players with a top 5 pass first pg (here's looking at you Derrick Rose) is more than enough incentive for Dwight "elbow anything that moves" Howard to sign with boston.

KG can always come back to the celtics by other means & never have to play a game for the hawks.

As Samuel L. Jackson said in "unthinkable", "there's a choice, a sacrifice that we all must make"

& if the only sacrifice this team has to make is trading KG who only had one 25+ pt game against Chris Bosh, & cannot block shots around the rim consistently (fast pg's & and-1's are rampant against the big ticket in the paint) then i'd do it in a heart beat.

Rondo
(austin rivers)
Green
Smith
Howard

is a pretty decent line up that has 2 all-star defenders, shot blockers & rebounders up front, with a top 5 pg & an athletic forward who can post up & exploit mismatches at the 3 spot.
this more than definitely extends our big three window.

the pride us celtics fans have by not trading one cornerstone piece of the puzzle that won us a title who's past his prime will be our downfall.

There's no realistic way to afford that lineup.  We *might* be able to put together a Rondo / Smith / Howard core, but that would require Howard taking a pay cut and the Celts letting go of Green, Bradley, their pick this year, etc. 

The only way your scenario works is if we trade Pierce to a team willing to absorb salary.

i don't mean having that line-up this year, i meant that would eventually be the celtics lineu-up when kg-pierce-ray retire. if we pull the trade it'd be minus austin & possibly green.

rondo
ray
pierce/green
smith
jermaine (i say ship him to portland or charlotte for pryzbilla)

[Roy H.]

Bottom Line. Pull a Zydrunas.
Only trade KG from the big three, include the #25 & s&t another player not named Jeff Green.

a core of athletic players with a top 5 pass first pg (here's looking at you Derrick Rose) is more than enough incentive for Dwight "elbow anything that moves" Howard to sign with boston.

KG can always come back to the celtics by other means & never have to play a game for the hawks.

As Samuel L. Jackson said in "unthinkable", "there's a choice, a sacrifice that we all must make"

& if the only sacrifice this team has to make is trading KG who only had one 25+ pt game against Chris Bosh, & cannot block shots around the rim consistently (fast pg's & and-1's are rampant against the big ticket in the paint) then i'd do it in a heart beat.

Rondo
(austin rivers)
Green
Smith
Howard

is a pretty decent line up that has 2 all-star defenders, shot blockers & rebounders up front, with a top 5 pg & an athletic forward who can post up & exploit mismatches at the 3 spot.
this more than definitely extends our big three window.

the pride us celtics fans have by not trading one cornerstone piece of the puzzle that won us a title who's past his prime will be our downfall.

There's no realistic way to afford that lineup.  We *might* be able to put together a Rondo / Smith / Howard core, but that would require Howard taking a pay cut and the Celts letting go of Green, Bradley, their pick this year, etc. 

The only way your scenario works is if we trade Pierce to a team willing to absorb salary.

i don't mean having that line-up this year, i meant that would eventually be the celtics lineu-up when kg-pierce-ray retire. if we pull the trade it'd be minus austin & possibly green.

rondo
ray
pierce/green
smith
jermaine (i say ship him to portland or charlotte for pryzbilla)

Right.  But presumably you want to sign Dwight Howard the following season as a free agent, right?  What I'm saying is that we can't afford to do that unless 1) we dump Pierce on a team willing to absorb salary, or 2) we let go of Green, Bradley, draft picks, etc., and Howard agrees to take a pay cut.

[lepoooo]

There seems to have two schools of thought here:

1. Some believe that trading for Smith would take the C's out of contention for the title because of the skill loss (Allen 3-pt ability) and because of the "ubuntu" loss

2. Some believe that trading for Smith would make this team at least as good (because of Smith physical ability, especially on defense) or maybe better


It's the same discussion all over again: blew it up? one more try? retooling on the fly? This discussion is endless and we can only speculate. The only sure things are that:

- Allen is 36 and is nering the end of his career
- Smith is 25 and will probably play the best basketball of his career in the next few years
- the C's have some assets here (Allen, BBD S&T, draft picks)that can make a deal done

So, do you give it a last shot with the current roster with some minor tweaks or do you try to rebuild "on the fly" without waiting for the 2012 FA market?


Here are the 2 scenarios that I see:

1. No trade, keep the Big 3 and give it a last shot

If they can stay healthy and find some players in the free agency, the C's have a chance. It is a lot of "if" but why not.

In this scenario, you need to find some players to complement the current roster. Problem is: the C's will never find those complementary players. The free agency is poor in center (the biggest need of Boston right now) and I doubt that the bench the C's could build this way would be better than the one they had this year.

The C's could trade for those players, but it means less cap space in 2012 and the best way to rebuild after 2011-2012 will be the FA market. The C's could also rebuild with the draft, but with Pierce nearing the end of his career and Rondo + Doc locked long-term, I am not sure that this is the best ide.


2. Trade for Smith (Allen for Smith or Allen + BBD / Allen + Draft picks for Smith / Smith + Crawford)

This trade will create some other needs (a new SG and some players that can shoot) but you have a good SF/PF long-term, still in his prime and for a honest price (13 millions seems OK for Smith level of talent).

This trade could also help the Celtics to land Howard if he decides to leave Orlando.

Finaly, I don't think that this trade hurts the C's short-term (= next season) because a SG with 3-pt range is something you can find pretty easily in this league (maybe not as good as Allen but you can find some pretty decent shooter that can defend for a small price, for example Anthony Parker). Anyway, I am of the school of thought that the C's don't have what it takes anymore to win it all.


In the end, it all comes to this: do you believe the C's have what it takes to win it all next year with their current roster?

I think Allen for Smith is a steal for the C's. Maybe it will hurt the C's to loose Allen and maybe the C's still have what it takes to win the title. But having a 25 years old 6'9 physical forward with strong defensive abilities and a good potential on offense seems like a better bet for the short and long terms than having a 36 years old SG running out of gas.

And anyway, they did not even give enough shots to Allen during the PO, so what is the point of keeping him if you don't use him properly? If I was Ainge and if a Allen/Smith deal was on the table, I would sign immediatly, no matter what some sentimental fans think. You don't win basketball championships by being sentimental. Was it sentimental to trade almost the whole roster to have KG & Ray in 2007?

Allen for Smith (+ BBD, draft picks and Crawford in the mix) is a steal. In 2 or 3 years max, Allen is done. Smith has ten years ahead of him and 5 of his best years.

[zerophase]

I'm into the idea of trading a member of the Big 3 for him. I honestly don't feel that with our current roster, we can actually win another championship. However the loss of Allen's clutch 3 point shooting will really really hurt us in the playoffs. Without him, we're basically like the Heat at the end of games, unable have clutch scoring. You could argue that Pierce could be our clutch scorer but I don't know if he still has clutch 3 pointers in him anymore.

I believe KG has a no-trade clause on his contract when we extended his contract a few years ago. The most plausible situation is if we traded Ray for Smith, but then what would Smith play on our team? Would he come off the bench? He nor KG are centers. What about Jeff Green?  I don't think Smith is really a SF either but if he plays SF, does that move Pierce to SG? I feel like it would cause a senario like the Wolves where they have a multitude of PF's with no center (Love, Beasely, maybe D.Williams).

[Roy H.]

There seems to have two schools of thought here:

1. Some believe that trading for Smith would take the C's out of contention for the title because of the skill loss (Allen 3-pt ability) and because of the "ubuntu" loss

2. Some believe that trading for Smith would make this team at least as good (because of Smith physical ability, especially on defense) or maybe better


It's the same discussion all over again: blew it up? one more try? retooling on the fly? This discussion is endless and we can only speculate. The only sure things are that:

- Allen is 36 and is nering the end of his career
- Smith is 25 and will probably play the best basketball of his career in the next few years
- the C's have some assets here (Allen, BBD S&T, draft picks)that can make a deal done

So, do you give it a last shot with the current roster with some minor tweaks or do you try to rebuild "on the fly" without waiting for the 2012 FA market?


Here are the 2 scenarios that I see:

1. No trade, keep the Big 3 and give it a last shot

If they can stay healthy and find some players in the free agency, the C's have a chance. It is a lot of "if" but why not.

In this scenario, you need to find some players to complement the current roster. Problem is: the C's will never find those complementary players. The free agency is poor in center (the biggest need of Boston right now) and I doubt that the bench the C's could build this way would be better than the one they had this year.

The C's could trade for those players, but it means less cap space in 2012 and the best way to rebuild after 2011-2012 will be the FA market. The C's could also rebuild with the draft, but with Pierce nearing the end of his career and Rondo + Doc locked long-term, I am not sure that this is the best ide.


2. Trade for Smith (Allen for Smith or Allen + BBD / Allen + Draft picks for Smith / Smith + Crawford)

This trade will create some other needs (a new SG and some players that can shoot) but you have a good SF/PF long-term, still in his prime and for a honest price (13 millions seems OK for Smith level of talent).

This trade could also help the Celtics to land Howard if he decides to leave Orlando.

Finaly, I don't think that this trade hurts the C's short-term (= next season) because a SG with 3-pt range is something you can find pretty easily in this league (maybe not as good as Allen but you can find some pretty decent shooter that can defend for a small price, for example Anthony Parker). Anyway, I am of the school of thought that the C's don't have what it takes anymore to win it all.


In the end, it all comes to this: do you believe the C's have what it takes to win it all next year with their current roster?

I think Allen for Smith is a steal for the C's. Maybe it will hurt the C's to loose Allen and maybe the C's still have what it takes to win the title. But having a 25 years old 6'9 physical forward with strong defensive abilities and a good potential on offense seems like a better bet for the short and long terms than having a 36 years old SG running out of gas.

And anyway, they did not even give enough shots to Allen during the PO, so what is the point of keeping him if you don't use him properly? If I was Ainge and if a Allen/Smith deal was on the table, I would sign immediatly, no matter what some sentimental fans think. You don't win basketball championships by being sentimental. Was it sentimental to trade almost the whole roster to have KG & Ray in 2007?

Allen for Smith (+ BBD, draft picks and Crawford in the mix) is a steal. In 2 or 3 years max, Allen is done. Smith has ten years ahead of him and 5 of his best years.

One quibble:  you left out a third argument, which is "Josh Smith isn't good enough to use up $13.3 million of our 2012 cap space on".

Adding Smith cuts out our ability to sign a "max" free agent in 2012, in all likelihood.  Any free agent (including Howard) would have to agree to a lesser deal.  Also, we'd have to let Green, Bradley, etc., walk.

Now, if the CBA drastically changes (i.e., by instituting a $70 million hard cap, say, instead of the $58 million soft cap), then we'd be in very good shape.  However, based upon the current rules, we wouldn't have much free agent flexibility after adding Smith.  I think that's reason enough for some people to oppose the deal.

[lepoooo]

We don't know for sure how the new CBA will look like, so it's impossible to know if trading for him would be a good or a bad thing cap-wise.

But even if you trade him with his 13 millions, you still can S&T Howard for a max contract by adding one player with a salary in the MLE range in the mix to balance the trade. Howard has his max contract, the C's have Howard and they don't loose all their players beside Smith, Rondo & Pierce.

But anyway, I almost did not speak about Howard because I don't think it should be the main reason of a trade for Smith. Smith is a good player and he would still be even if he was not friend with Howard. And I prefer to have Smith locked up for the post-big 3 era than just having Rondo, Pierce & Green.

We don't know what will happen in 2012 in the free agency. The C's are not the only team to bet on 2012 and the quantity of talent available is actually pretty short (beside DH and some PG).

[the_Bird]

In the end, I don't see us as being likely to have the cap space to pursue a max-level free agent in 2012.  I don't see Jeff Green not getting a multi-year offer we're going to feel obligated to match.  Pierce and Rondo aren't going anywhere.  The cap number's likely to change.  The only way to fit in a max contract (even without CBA changes) is to not have Green on the books past next season and to renounce our rights to KG and Ray when they become free agents, and not spending the MLE this summer (for more than a one-year contract, at least).  Commit to cap space in twelve months, you are EXTREMELY limited in how you improve the team today.

So, use KG or Ray's contracts to bring in that kind of player now.  I like the trade of KG for Smith and Hinrich.  Smith would be the starting PF.  Hinrich would take some of the pressure off Ray Allen.  If we don't have cap space in 2012, we wouldn't HAVE to renounce our Bird rights on Ray Allen next summer, so we could re-sign him for another two years at reasonable dollars (he'll be worth it).  Still have the MLE to spend this summer.

Go into next season with:

Rondo
Ray
Pierce
Josh Smith
JO

Main bench:
Hinrich (backing up Ray and Rondo)
Jeff Green (backing up Pierce and Josh Smith)
MLE-level center TBD

After next-season, we wouldn't be players in free agency but could re-sign Ray and we'd have some pretty decent players still in their prime.  Hope to hit on a couple of draft picks, and we stay relevant.

Just seems to me that KG's the one of the big three who's most showing his age.  If you can get a legit near-star for him, plus an excellent backup, I think you do that.  

[The Walker Wiggle]

Rajon Rondo and Jermaine O'Neal for Josh Smith and Magnum Rolle WORKS on the Trade Machine.

[Roy H.]

We don't know for sure how the new CBA will look like, so it's impossible to know if trading for him would be a good or a bad thing cap-wise.

But even if you trade him with his 13 millions, you still can S&T Howard for a max contract by adding one player with a salary in the MLE range in the mix to balance the trade. Howard has his max contract, the C's have Howard and they don't loose all their players beside Smith, Rondo & Pierce.

Usually, though, teams participating in S&Ts don't take back $5 or $6 million contracts.  The idea is to have enough cap space to be able to sign the player outright, so that you can leverage the player's original team.  If there's no threat of Howard signing in Boston without the Magic's assistance, then there's no reason for them to facilitate that deal (and especially not if we don't have any legitimate assets that they would find intriguing).

[Moranis]

We don't know for sure how the new CBA will look like, so it's impossible to know if trading for him would be a good or a bad thing cap-wise.

But even if you trade him with his 13 millions, you still can S&T Howard for a max contract by adding one player with a salary in the MLE range in the mix to balance the trade. Howard has his max contract, the C's have Howard and they don't loose all their players beside Smith, Rondo & Pierce.

Usually, though, teams participating in S&Ts don't take back $5 or $6 million contracts.  The idea is to have enough cap space to be able to sign the player outright, so that you can leverage the player's original team.  If there's no threat of Howard signing in Boston without the Magic's assistance, then there's no reason for them to facilitate that deal (and especially not if we don't have any legitimate assets that they would find intriguing).

That isn't exactly true.  If Howard says he is gone, then the Magic have plenty of incentive to trade him to someone and if Howard says the Celtics are his top choice and the Celtics make a competitive offer, then the Magic will trade him.   I'm not sure the C's can really make a competitive offer, but at least there are plenty of draft picks floating around, including the Clippers pick.  Jeff Green, Clippers 1st, 3 Celtic 1sts, is a decent offer at that point in time (though the Magic could probably do better).  Heck the Cavs even traded Lebron to the Heat after they said they wouldn't.  There is always value in trading if the player is gone, so you might as well take advantage of it.

[Tradetime]

I'd say make a deal that brings us Crawford in with J Smooth. Ray and BBD for those two. Crawford is a dangerous outside threat as well, and we really need to team someone up with Garnett down on the blocks that can defend the rim. We pride ourselves on our D, and Smith is that guy we need to be a shot-blocking presence in the paint and around the basket.

I'd still try and move up a bit in this draft and get Bismack Biyombo as a part of our future core--another guy that can defend the rim.