Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?

[mgent]

Lot of talk about The Big O as a PG but Basketball reference has him listed as a "guard-forward". Either way I have Cousy ahead of him.

Guard/point-forward

So is LeBron going to be on this list some day?

Um no he plays the 3.

But he's a forward/Point forward. How is that different than Guard/Point -Forward?

But Oscar played PG.  He was capable of playing SG and SF but he was a PG.  LeBron plays SF.  He often handles the PG's duties, but he's never played the 1.  He's always played with a 1 even if it's always been a scoring-only PG.

Don't know what's so difficult to understand even though it's a wordy explanation.  Even though LeBron often is the team's PG, he's never played the position.  Oscar was a PG, SG, SF, point-forward all in one but he actually played the 1.  AKA he played with an off guard and a SF.  Nothing like LeBron.

It just seems odd that BBall reference has him listed as guard/forward, that's all. And for what it's worth on his first team (Which is as much research as I'm willing to do at 2 AM) O's listed as a guard/forward, Jack Twyman is a Forward/Guard and Bucky Bockhorn as a flat guard.  It's just interesting how nebulous positions were back when definitions weren't as strict, I'm willing to bet those Royals teams worked much the way the Cavs did when LeBron there, with him handling all the duties we think of as a point guards duties and Mo Williams simply being the shortest player listed at Guard.

Well I thought BBall reference only lists guard/forward/center, no specific positions.  Do you consider Magic a PG?  Oscar was Magic before Magic, he paved the way for oversized PGs.  In fact I just checked, he's listed as a guard/forward also.  Dave DeBusschere is listed that way as well despite playing mostly PF.  It's not gonna be exact.

LeBron on the other hand is exactly a SF/point-forward.  He's never even had exclusive PG duties, nevermind having played the position.  Mo Williams/Chalmers/Bibby all brought the ball up the court pretty often.  There's a pretty big difference between forwards who do a lot of creating for their team (LeBron, TMac, pre-injury Grant Hill) and oversized PGs who actually play the position on the court (Robertson, Johnson, Shaun Livingston).

[CelticsFanNC]

1.  Magic
2.  Oscar
3.  Cousey
4.  Stockton
5.  Isiah
6.  Nash
7.  Frazier
8.  Kidd
9.  Archibald
10. K.Johnson

[wdleehi]

Magic
Oscar
Thomas
Cousey
Kidd
Stockton
Paul
Frazier
KJ
Tiny
Nash

[OsirusCeltics]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgNbLUJwHvA

Isn't he just awesome?

[jambr380]

Lot of talk about The Big O as a PG but Basketball reference has him listed as a "guard-forward". Either way I have Cousy ahead of him.

Guard/point-forward

So is LeBron going to be on this list some day?

Um no he plays the 3.

But he's a forward/Point forward. How is that different than Guard/Point -Forward?

But Oscar played PG.  He was capable of playing SG and SF but he was a PG.  LeBron plays SF.  He often handles the PG's duties, but he's never played the 1.  He's always played with a 1 even if it's always been a scoring-only PG.

Don't know what's so difficult to understand even though it's a wordy explanation.  Even though LeBron often is the team's PG, he's never played the position.  Oscar was a PG, SG, SF, point-forward all in one but he actually played the 1.  AKA he played with an off guard and a SF.  Nothing like LeBron.

It just seems odd that BBall reference has him listed as guard/forward, that's all. And for what it's worth on his first team (Which is as much research as I'm willing to do at 2 AM) O's listed as a guard/forward, Jack Twyman is a Forward/Guard and Bucky Bockhorn as a flat guard.  It's just interesting how nebulous positions were back when definitions weren't as strict, I'm willing to bet those Royals teams worked much the way the Cavs did when LeBron there, with him handling all the duties we think of as a point guards duties and Mo Williams simply being the shortest player listed at Guard.

Well I thought BBall reference only lists guard/forward/center, no specific positions.  Do you consider Magic a PG?  Oscar was Magic before Magic, he paved the way for oversized PGs.  In fact I just checked, he's listed as a guard/forward also.  Dave DeBusschere is listed that way as well despite playing mostly PF.  It's not gonna be exact.

LeBron on the other hand is exactly a SF/point-forward.  He's never even had exclusive PG duties, nevermind having played the position.  Mo Williams/Chalmers/Bibby all brought the ball up the court pretty often.  There's a pretty big difference between forwards who do a lot of creating for their team (LeBron, TMac, pre-injury Grant Hill) and oversized PGs who actually play the position on the court (Robertson, Johnson, Shaun Livingston).

I think KCs point is more that Oscar isn't listed as a pg, so did he ever technically play the position? If Lebron and Robertson both basically do similar things for their teams, then they essentially play the same position, regardless of who they are playing with (and bball reference is saying that he played with another guard and another guard/forward).

Your point about Magic is totally correct (although I remember on Tecmo NBA Basketball, Byron Scott was the pg and Magic was the sg) and your point about Lebron playing with other pgs [that are really sgs] makes sense, since Lebron is technically playing sf, but what position did Robertson play, literally?

[Roy H.]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

[jambr380]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

Thank you, Roy, and I guess I knew that, but things always go haywire when we are talking about what positions of players (i.e. is Duncan a pf or c?). His assist numbers certainly prove that he was a distributor and he played guard, so good enough...

[BballTim]

  It's worth pointing out that not every team had traditional pg/sg positions. The Celtics teams from the mid-80s basically started Bird and two combo guards.

[KCattheStripe]

  It's worth pointing out that not every team had traditional pg/sg positions. The Celtics teams from the mid-80s basically started Bird and two combo guards.

This was the point I was trying to make.

[BballTim]

  It's worth pointing out that not every team had traditional pg/sg positions. The Celtics teams from the mid-80s basically started Bird and two combo guards.

This was the point I was trying to make.

  I remember him as a pg. However, he's not alone in the "position issue". Jerry West generally led the Lakers in assists, averaging about 7 a game in his career and as many as 9 a game. Would he be considered a pg? Because he should take up a very high slot in most of the lists.

[KCattheStripe]

  It's worth pointing out that not every team had traditional pg/sg positions. The Celtics teams from the mid-80s basically started Bird and two combo guards.

This was the point I was trying to make.

  I remember him as a pg. However, he's not alone in the "position issue". Jerry West generally led the Lakers in assists, averaging about 7 a game in his career and as many as 9 a game. Would he be considered a pg? Because he should take up a very high slot in most of the lists.

Stupid nebulous basketball before video games.

[BballTim]

  It's worth pointing out that not every team had traditional pg/sg positions. The Celtics teams from the mid-80s basically started Bird and two combo guards.

This was the point I was trying to make.

  I remember him as a pg. However, he's not alone in the "position issue". Jerry West generally led the Lakers in assists, averaging about 7 a game in his career and as many as 9 a game. Would he be considered a pg? Because he should take up a very high slot in most of the lists.

Stupid nebulous basketball before video games.

  Not really a video game player, do they have a "legends" version? That might help...

[mgent]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

If Magic is a PG then Oscar is definitely a PG

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

[BballTim]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.

[mgent]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.

Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?