Author Topic: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?  (Read 16552 times)

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Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2011, 02:03:18 PM »

Offline BballTim

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. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.
Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.
Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?

  The numbers. From 60-61 through 64-65 teams averaged 1806 assists per year. Over the last 5 years teams have averaged 1751 assists per year. In Cousy's best assist year in the 50s teams averaged 1747 assists a year, which is almost identical to current numbers. More assists were awarded when Oscar played, because the increase in shots was greater than the criteria's effect on the percentage of baskets with assists awarded on them.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2011, 07:49:11 PM »

Offline mgent

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. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.
Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.
Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?

  The numbers. From 60-61 through 64-65 teams averaged 1806 assists per year. Over the last 5 years teams have averaged 1751 assists per year. In Cousy's best assist year in the 50s teams averaged 1747 assists a year, which is almost identical to current numbers. More assists were awarded when Oscar played, because the increase in shots was greater than the criteria's effect on the percentage of baskets with assists awarded on them.
So what?  That's teams.  According to the numbers, a guy like Jose Calderon is a better distributor than Cousy?
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2011, 09:40:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.
Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.
Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?

  The numbers. From 60-61 through 64-65 teams averaged 1806 assists per year. Over the last 5 years teams have averaged 1751 assists per year. In Cousy's best assist year in the 50s teams averaged 1747 assists a year, which is almost identical to current numbers. More assists were awarded when Oscar played, because the increase in shots was greater than the criteria's effect on the percentage of baskets with assists awarded on them.
So what?  That's teams.  According to the numbers, a guy like Jose Calderon is a better distributor than Cousy?

  Obviously the assists are the total of all assists assigned to a given team, not to the team itself. If Jose Calderon gets more assists than Cousy even though both teams get about the same amount of assists, I'd say that it's more indicative of one offense being more point guard centric and the other based more on ball movement and passing. I don't think that very many people feel that everyone who gets more assists than Cousy is a better distributor than Cousy or even as good a distributor as Cousy.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2011, 11:10:35 PM »

Offline Bingbangbarros

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Did everyone who has Cousy in their top 10 actually see him play? Or are you basing it on highlights, stats and championships? I'm not trying to bash anybody as I've only seen video and highlights. Based on what I've seen of him I don't think he could compete with the point guards from the 80's to present day.

Kidd was great in his prime and I would definitely put him in my top 10 over Cousy any day even though he couldn't shoot. Cousy by the way had a 375% fg% for his career.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2011, 11:22:57 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Did everyone who has Cousy in their top 10 actually see him play? Or are you basing it on highlights, stats and championships? I'm not trying to bash anybody as I've only seen video and highlights. Based on what I've seen of him I don't think he could compete with the point guards from the 80's to present day.

Kidd was great in his prime and I would definitely put him in my top 10 over Cousy any day even though he couldn't shoot. Cousy by the way had a 375% fg% for his career.

  I never saw Cousy play, but in addition to tthe .375 fg%, you might want to consider the 10 straight all nba first team, winning the MVP and finishing top 5 in the voting 3 other times, or leading the league in assists 8 years in a row.

  In general when rating players like this I consider how players do compared to players in their era. The players played under different rules and the games were called differently by the referees, the skills emphasized were different as was the nutrition/training/youth game and the like.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2011, 09:53:14 AM »

Offline Bingbangbarros

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I understand that Cousy,along with many other players were great during their era but I have a hard time believing he would be a great player in todays game. I'm not so sure about Oscar either.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2011, 10:11:59 AM »

Offline housecall

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There has been to many great pg's that came thru the NBA for me to give him an accurate spot.I will list him in the top 20 best pg's All-Time.He'd lean more towards lower teens.imo
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 10:17:01 AM by housecall »

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2011, 10:14:07 AM »

Offline housecall

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Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2011, 10:20:59 AM »

Offline hardlyyardley

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You can't judge how players from a different era like Cousy or Robertson would do today.....how would Babe Ruth or Red Grange do?

Kidd is definitely top 15-20

 

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2011, 12:13:06 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I understand that Cousy,along with many other players were great during their era but I have a hard time believing he would be a great player in todays game. I'm not so sure about Oscar either.

  Take any star of your choice. Put them in the 40s and 50s. Have them train and eat like people of that generation. Have them taught about basketball the way people were at the time. No fancy basketball camps, less organized and less competitive youth basketball, no growing up watching modern NBA players or espn highlights. You'd likely end up with a player that would make you wonder if they'd be able to be a great player in the modern game.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2011, 01:47:10 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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I understand that Cousy,along with many other players were great during their era but I have a hard time believing he would be a great player in todays game. I'm not so sure about Oscar either.

  Take any star of your choice. Put them in the 40s and 50s. Have them train and eat like people of that generation. Have them taught about basketball the way people were at the time. No fancy basketball camps, less organized and less competitive youth basketball, no growing up watching modern NBA players or espn highlights. You'd likely end up with a player that would make you wonder if they'd be able to be a great player in the modern game.

Well said TP x 2

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2011, 02:52:11 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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"To help my team, I had to be able to knock down the three to make it easier for these guys. And so, I worked on it everyday"

-Jason Kidd

This is the advice he needs to give to Rondo

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2011, 03:30:51 PM »

Offline Bingbangbarros

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The fact is these guys are better today. You are right. They do have many advantages over the old-timers.  They should  not be penalized for that. They are better shooters, more atheletic, just better at everything. How could you seriously take Bob Cousy over Jason Kidd or any of the current top point guards. Those guys were great for their time but the game has evolved so much since then. It is tough to compare eras but when you are listing the top players of all time you kind of have to.

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2011, 03:36:10 PM »

Offline mgent

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. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.
Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.
Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?

  The numbers. From 60-61 through 64-65 teams averaged 1806 assists per year. Over the last 5 years teams have averaged 1751 assists per year. In Cousy's best assist year in the 50s teams averaged 1747 assists a year, which is almost identical to current numbers. More assists were awarded when Oscar played, because the increase in shots was greater than the criteria's effect on the percentage of baskets with assists awarded on them.
So what?  That's teams.  According to the numbers, a guy like Jose Calderon is a better distributor than Cousy?

  Obviously the assists are the total of all assists assigned to a given team, not to the team itself. If Jose Calderon gets more assists than Cousy even though both teams get about the same amount of assists, I'd say that it's more indicative of one offense being more point guard centric and the other based more on ball movement and passing. I don't think that very many people feel that everyone who gets more assists than Cousy is a better distributor than Cousy or even as good a distributor as Cousy.

Well I thought that teams were less PG centric back then, with more players involved in ball moment, and that was one of the reasons for a higher amount of team assists.

As far as PGs go, I don't see how assists being easier to get nowadays is a bad argument for Jose Calderon averaging more assists than a superior distributor like Cousy.  Obviously I didn't watch Cousy play so I could be guessing, but I thought it was a pretty common well-known fact that assists were harder to get in those days.  I don't see how a few more FGs makes up for the fact that all the FGs, including the "extra" FGs had different criteria to be assisted on.  I mean you're acting like those few baskets are guaranteed assists, they were still harder to get than if today's players played at a higher pace.

I don't see how you can say anything is clear cut when you're comparing eras.  But my guess is if Oscar and Cousy were put in a time machine and forced to play with today's pace and rules, they're not gonna average LESS than their 7.5 and 9.5 career assist averages.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2011, 03:52:42 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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The fact is these guys are better today. You are right. They do have many advantages over the old-timers.  They should  not be penalized for that. They are better shooters, more atheletic, just better at everything. How could you seriously take Bob Cousy over Jason Kidd or any of the current top point guards. Those guys were great for their time but the game has evolved so much since then. It is tough to compare eras but when you are listing the top players of all time you kind of have to.

The players of the past had better fundamentals, and more of team players. If that boring to you, then ok. Its just that now the game is all about flash, athleticism, and sportscenter. Back then (60's-80's) was better. The people today are more athletes then they are actual basketball players