Where would you rank Kidd on the list of All-Time Point Guards?

[Bingbangbarros]

This has nothing to do with me finding those players boring. I love team players and despise the Iverson type players but I will give credit when it is do. As much as many of the current players lack fundamentals they are much more talented today. Guys like Lebron or Dwayne Wade, two guys who don't always make the right pass or move well without the ball. They are still two of the top players of all time. I understand that greatness is not all about being athletic but the current players today are better overall, more talented. Of course this is my opinion.

What makes someone a basketball player?

[OsirusCeltics]

This has nothing to do with me finding those players boring. I love team players and despise the Iverson type players but I will give credit when it is do. As much as many of the current players lack fundamentals they are much more talented today. Guys like Lebron or Dwayne Wade, two guys who don't always make the right pass or move well without the ball. They are still two of the top players of all time. I understand that greatness is not all about being athletic but the current players today are better overall, more talented. Of course this is my opinion.

What makes someone a basketball player?

You give an example of Lebron being so talented. But he doesn't have any fundamental basketball skills
-He doesn't have a midrange game
-Has no post game
-Can't play without the ball
-Mediocre dribbler
-Travels with the ball everytime

He may be talented athletically, but he isn't a basketball player to me

[BballTim]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.

Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?

  The numbers. From 60-61 through 64-65 teams averaged 1806 assists per year. Over the last 5 years teams have averaged 1751 assists per year. In Cousy's best assist year in the 50s teams averaged 1747 assists a year, which is almost identical to current numbers. More assists were awarded when Oscar played, because the increase in shots was greater than the criteria's effect on the percentage of baskets with assists awarded on them.

So what?  That's teams.  According to the numbers, a guy like Jose Calderon is a better distributor than Cousy?

  Obviously the assists are the total of all assists assigned to a given team, not to the team itself. If Jose Calderon gets more assists than Cousy even though both teams get about the same amount of assists, I'd say that it's more indicative of one offense being more point guard centric and the other based more on ball movement and passing. I don't think that very many people feel that everyone who gets more assists than Cousy is a better distributor than Cousy or even as good a distributor as Cousy.

Well I thought that teams were less PG centric back then, with more players involved in ball moment, and that was one of the reasons for a higher amount of team assists.

As far as PGs go, I don't see how assists being easier to get nowadays is a bad argument for Jose Calderon averaging more assists than a superior distributor like Cousy.  Obviously I didn't watch Cousy play so I could be guessing, but I thought it was a pretty common well-known fact that assists were harder to get in those days.  I don't see how a few more FGs makes up for the fact that all the FGs, including the "extra" FGs had different criteria to be assisted on.  I mean you're acting like those few baskets are guaranteed assists, they were still harder to get than if today's players played at a higher pace.

I don't see how you can say anything is clear cut when you're comparing eras.  But my guess is if Oscar and Cousy were put in a time machine and forced to play with today's pace and rules, they're not gonna average LESS than their 7.5 and 9.5 career assist averages.

  I think that assists were awarded somewhat differently years ago. I don't know how hard it is to gauge how much harder it was to get an assist other than compare the percentage of assists awarded. In 1960-61 assists were awarded on 52% of made baskets league-wide. In 2010-11 assists were awarded on 58% of made baskets. So even if it were "harder" to get an assist back then it wasn't tremendously harder. However in 1960-61 teams averaged 45 made baskets a game and in 2010-11 teams averaged 37 made baskets a game. The average game in 1960-61 had 24 assists per team, the average game in 2010-11 had 21.5 assists per team. It was somewhat harder for Cousy to get an assist for a given pass than Calderon but Cousy would have had more chances to get assists because teams took so many more shots back then.

  What this means IMO is that assist totals per game are somewhat similar between the eras. This is opposed to, say, points per game when teams in 60-61 scored 118 a game and teams in 10-11 scored b about 99 a game. Scoring 20 a game now is roughly comparable to 25 a game back then.

[OsirusCeltics]

. . . but what position did Robertson play, literally?

He was a combo guard, and had most of the ball-handling and distributing duties.  He's commonly referred to as a point guard, though.  See, for instance, here:  Link.

Most, if not all.  He was averaging 11+ assists in a time with different rules that made assists a lot harder to get.  Cousy was a full-time PG and he was getting more like 7 a game.

  Assists weren't that much harder to get back then. They did give out somewhat fewer of them per basket made, but there were also more baskets made.

If LeBron is a PG then you could argue an incredibly long list of non-PGs that could also be considered PGs, and you can pretty much make an argument about every player being considered a different position than the one they actually play.  That's why terms like PF/C, combo guard, swingman, and POINT-FORWARD (LeBron) were created.

As far as actual positions on the court, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 and LeBron is without a doubt a 3.

  Yeah, LeBron's a pg then so is Bird and so was Wade until last year.

Yeah but the criteria was much more stringent, who's to say that doesn't outweigh the few more baskets made per game?

  The numbers. From 60-61 through 64-65 teams averaged 1806 assists per year. Over the last 5 years teams have averaged 1751 assists per year. In Cousy's best assist year in the 50s teams averaged 1747 assists a year, which is almost identical to current numbers. More assists were awarded when Oscar played, because the increase in shots was greater than the criteria's effect on the percentage of baskets with assists awarded on them.

So what?  That's teams.  According to the numbers, a guy like Jose Calderon is a better distributor than Cousy?

  Obviously the assists are the total of all assists assigned to a given team, not to the team itself. If Jose Calderon gets more assists than Cousy even though both teams get about the same amount of assists, I'd say that it's more indicative of one offense being more point guard centric and the other based more on ball movement and passing. I don't think that very many people feel that everyone who gets more assists than Cousy is a better distributor than Cousy or even as good a distributor as Cousy.

Well I thought that teams were less PG centric back then, with more players involved in ball moment, and that was one of the reasons for a higher amount of team assists.

As far as PGs go, I don't see how assists being easier to get nowadays is a bad argument for Jose Calderon averaging more assists than a superior distributor like Cousy.  Obviously I didn't watch Cousy play so I could be guessing, but I thought it was a pretty common well-known fact that assists were harder to get in those days.  I don't see how a few more FGs makes up for the fact that all the FGs, including the "extra" FGs had different criteria to be assisted on.  I mean you're acting like those few baskets are guaranteed assists, they were still harder to get than if today's players played at a higher pace.

I don't see how you can say anything is clear cut when you're comparing eras.  But my guess is if Oscar and Cousy were put in a time machine and forced to play with today's pace and rules, they're not gonna average LESS than their 7.5 and 9.5 career assist averages.

In the in the 40's-60's an assist was negated if the person receiving the pass dribbled the ball.
Wasn't born around that time, but you can see in the old tapes of players about to score reaching as far as they could near the rim without dribbling

So to me all the assists those players averaged, would have been much higher in the modern era

[BballTim]

In the in the 40's-60's an assist was negated if the person receiving the pass dribbled the ball.
Wasn't born around that time, but you can see in the old tapes of players about to score reaching as far as they could near the rim without dribbling

So to me all the assists those players averaged, would have been much higher in the modern era

  You have to remember teams scored more points back then than they do now. Even of they measured assists the same way, 12 assists a game back then would have been the same as 10 assists a game now because the pace was so much quicker.

[mgent]

In the in the 40's-60's an assist was negated if the person receiving the pass dribbled the ball.
Wasn't born around that time, but you can see in the old tapes of players about to score reaching as far as they could near the rim without dribbling

So to me all the assists those players averaged, would have been much higher in the modern era

  You have to remember teams scored more points back then than they do now. Even of they measured assists the same way, 12 assists a game back then would have been the same as 10 assists a game now because the pace was so much quicker.

But it's not that simple.  That 12 assists could very well become 16 in today's rules, which is still about 14 once you take pace into it; that beats 12.  You can't just count for one change and not the other.

[DavorCroatiaFan]

Tier 1: Oscar Robertson & Magic Johnson
Tier 2: Bob Cousy, John Stockton & Isaih Thomas
Tier 3: Walt Frazier, Dennis Johnson, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd,  Steve Nash
Tier 4: Lenny Wlkens, Guy Rodgers, Maurice Cheeks, Sidney Moncrief, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway...

CP3, DWill, RR, DR, Wall...still to young...

[BballTim]

In the in the 40's-60's an assist was negated if the person receiving the pass dribbled the ball.
Wasn't born around that time, but you can see in the old tapes of players about to score reaching as far as they could near the rim without dribbling

So to me all the assists those players averaged, would have been much higher in the modern era

  You have to remember teams scored more points back then than they do now. Even of they measured assists the same way, 12 assists a game back then would have been the same as 10 assists a game now because the pace was so much quicker.

But it's not that simple.  That 12 assists could very well become 16 in today's rules, which is still about 14 once you take pace into it; that beats 12.  You can't just count for one change and not the other.

  Oh, I agree, mine was just a very rough estimate. I'm firmly in the camp of comparing players based on how they did compared to their respective peers. Cousy led the league in assists something like 8 years in a row. That's more meaningful than his assists per game compared to Calderon's.

[nickagneta]

In the in the 40's-60's an assist was negated if the person receiving the pass dribbled the ball.
Wasn't born around that time, but you can see in the old tapes of players about to score reaching as far as they could near the rim without dribbling

So to me all the assists those players averaged, would have been much higher in the modern era

  You have to remember teams scored more points back then than they do now. Even of they measured assists the same way, 12 assists a game back then would have been the same as 10 assists a game now because the pace was so much quicker.

Let's remember that the pace of the game was higher than today all the through the mid to late 80's. If players like Cousy are having their numbers reset to today's game due to pace, then shouldn't players like Magic also have their numbers reset due to pace?

I hate the pace argument when comparing eras because pace was so different due to rule changes and basketball philosophies. The Celtics ran a fast paced game all the way through to Bird yet no one seems to want to reset Bird's stats as compared to today's players. Denver ran a ridiculously fast paced offense during the Westhead and Doug Moe years and yet Fat Lever never once averaged over 10 assists per game.

I think it best to leave the stats alone and judge them as they are. Cousy was a ground breaking, play making, fast break, point guard who was transcendent due to his passing skills and ability to see a pass and execute it during a time when others had never seen or tried to execute those passes before.

And that is why he is a top 10 PG of all-time.

[Bingbangbarros]

This has nothing to do with me finding those players boring. I love team players and despise the Iverson type players but I will give credit when it is do. As much as many of the current players lack fundamentals they are much more talented today. Guys like Lebron or Dwayne Wade, two guys who don't always make the right pass or move well without the ball. They are still two of the top players of all time. I understand that greatness is not all about being athletic but the current players today are better overall, more talented. Of course this is my opinion.

What makes someone a basketball player?

You give an example of Lebron being so talented. But he doesn't have any fundamental basketball skills
-He doesn't have a midrange game
-Has no post game
-Can't play without the ball
-Mediocre dribbler
-Travels with the ball everytime

He may be talented athletically, but he isn't a basketball player to me

I guess I really don't understand your criteria for being a basketball player. Lebron is a very good ballhandler who creates shots for other people. If he wanted to he could probably score 35+ points per game. He can pass the ball. He can rebound. He can score. He plays very good defense. Those to me are fundamentals and and combined with his athleticism they make him a great basketball player. He doesn't post or cut well. I do not consider post up play a fundamental. Its a way to score. Some people have that talent or ability, some don't. I believe Lebron does although he has yet to figure it out. He's not comfortable yet. He doesn't have the greatest midrange game but not every great player does everything perfectly. Lebron is not my favorite player but you have to give him credit. He is a great basketball player.