'98 draft - Paul or Dirk?

[OsirusCeltics]

Besides Shaq, Paul to me is the best player of his generation. I rooted for Dallas like hell in this Finals, so happy for Dirk. But I'll choose Paul over Dirk in the draft

If only Paul had more help throughout his career...

[slamtheking]

Out of curiousity...who are the "great players" that Dirk has been playing with for years?

Jason Terry? Marquis Daniels? Jerry Stackhouse? Keith Van Horn?

The three best players Dirk has ever played with were Jason Kidd (well past his prime) and Steve Nash (before he really reached his ceiling) and Michael Finley (who I can't knock at all during his time in Dallas, he was awesome).

Every other player that has been key for the Mavs have either been guys who were seen as overpaid risks before they found success with Dallas (Tyson CHandler, Shawn Marion), or have failed to replicate the success they found in Dallas on a consistent basis (Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, Devin Harris).

Erick Dampier? Shawn Bradley?

Dirk's best teams have been significantly worse than Pierce's best teams.

Well I guess the fact that they both played with Toine in his prime makes it a wash 

[Moranis]

 Ok, I'm officially lost. PP has been on teams that were more talented than Dirk's teams. When the players were healthy Paul's teams were IMO significantly better. I felt that injuries during the playoffs were significant since much of the conversation has been about how well their respective teams fared. I'm not following what exactly you're disputing or what point you're trying to make.

  And when I said the Mavs flamed out I'm pretty sure I was talking about first round losses.

I'm a little twisted around now too.

My point: The Celtics since the getting the Big 3 have had a better cast around Pierce than Dirk ever had in Dallas.

  I agree, but if the Celts had gone through the playoffs with those casts intact we'd probably be coming off of our 4th straight finals appearance and our 3rd or 4th title in that time frame. PP would have had more success with a better cast. I'm not sure exactly what that adds to the discussion though.

No one knows what might have happened, but you could certainly make a strong argument that even the cast Pierce had in the playoffs this year was a much better supporting cast then what Dirk had in the playoffs this year.  I mean unless I'm missing something, Pierce was playing with 3 current all stars.  

no way...dallas was better and deeper. if we were healthy, different story. however, we lost our starting center, had our other center playing w/ a broken wrist, a one-armed point guard (which, as far as i'm concerned, ended our playoff chances, period), and our key big off the bench playing in a different world (baby).

Dallas lost its second best player in the middle of the season, not role players like the Celtics lost.  Who is better Jeff Green or Jose Barea.  How about Glen Davis or Peja?  If you went top to bottom and compared the rosters against the Heat, Boston's was better, especially if you remove Dirk and Pierce from the equation.

EDIT:  In fact let's do that

Garnett > Kidd
Allen > Terry
Rondo > Chandler
O'Neal < Marion
Green > Barea
Davis > Stevenson
West > Haywood

That is the essential rotations of each team, you could certainly change some of the positions around, but the end result is pretty much the same no matter how you match them up and if you actually went position by position (as opposed to ability), not much changes there either. 

The simple truth is the Celtics had the pieces they just didn't come through when it mattered and faltered down the stretch in every game (unlike the Mavs who were money down the stretch).

[BballTim]

The simple truth is the Celtics had the pieces they just didn't come through when it mattered and faltered down the stretch in every game (unlike the Mavs who were money down the stretch).

  Haha. Did your comparisons consider Rondo's elbow or JO's broken wrist?

[Moranis]

The simple truth is the Celtics had the pieces they just didn't come through when it mattered and faltered down the stretch in every game (unlike the Mavs who were money down the stretch).

  Haha. Did your comparisons consider Rondo's elbow or JO's broken wrist?

a one armed Rondo is better then Chandler.  I put Marion as better then O'Neal.

[Who]

I don't think there is any question that Dirk is the superior player over Paul Pierce at this juncture of their respective careers.

Over the entirety of their careers, it is more debatable.

[Who]

Garnett > Kidd
Allen > Terry
Rondo > Chandler
O'Neal < Marion
Green > Barea
Davis > Stevenson
West > Haywood

Starters

K.Garnett > T.Chandler
R.Rondo > J.Kidd ... a one armed Rondo < Kidd
R.Allen > S.Marion
(fifth starter) J.O'Neal > D.Stevenson

Bench

D.West < J.Terry
J.Green > JJ Barea
G.Davis < B.Haywood ... an injured Haywood, G.Davis > I.Mahinmi
N.Krstic > B.Cardinal

S.Pavlovic < P.Stojakovic
T.Murphy > I.Mahinmi (no other backup bigs)
V.Wafer = D.Jones
A.Bradley < R.Beaubois

[Fafnir]

I don't think there is any question that Dirk is the superior player over Paul Pierce at this juncture of their respective careers.

Over the entirety of their careers, it is more debatable.

I think Dirk's superior longevity as an elite player likely wins out in the end.

Paul had a much shorter peak, though it might have been higher. Its hard to tell given how rubish his supporting casts were during those years.

[makaveli]

Garnett > Kidd
Allen > Terry
Rondo > Chandler
O'Neal < Marion
Green > Barea
Davis > Stevenson
West > Haywood

Starters

K.Garnett > T.Chandler
R.Rondo > J.Kidd ... a one armed Rondo < Kidd
R.Allen > S.Marion
(fifth starter) J.O'Neal > D.Stevenson

Bench

D.West < J.Terry
J.Green > JJ Barea
G.Davis < B.Haywood ... an injured Haywood, G.Davis > I.Mahinmi
N.Krstic > B.Cardinal

S.Pavlovic < P.Stojakovic
T.Murphy > I.Mahinmi (no other backup bigs)
V.Wafer = D.Jones
A.Bradley < R.Beaubois

I would take Barea over Green any day in this playoffs and I would give a slight advantage to Terry over Allen

[dmopower]

Dirk 6 days a week, Paul on the seventh.

[eugen]

Paul or Dirk? 2 different players, 2 different impacts. Dirk more ofensive player than PP

[Bahku]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP). 

Pierce never came close to the NBA Finals until joined by 2 other HOFers playing in a much weaker conference, while Dirk took a team of role players to the Finals in 05/06 and beat the defending champs along the way. 

What are you talking about?!? He won the 2007-2008 NBA Finals MVP Award ... he carried it around for the next month and went on three talk shows with it! It's the same award Dirk just got ... please read my posts completely before bashing them, or check your facts a little more closely. Thanks.

Seems like you guys are arguing different things. Pierce has never won a regular season MVP award (Dirk has), and I think that's what Moranis was getting at.

Yup, but that's not what my post said, which is why I suggested he read a little more closely before replying so negatively to others.

He was replying to your statement I believe with his own list of things that Pierce didn't do (Moranis is a pretty big Dirk fan IIRC), basically saying Dirk has won a MVP, and has taken a team to the Finals without the help of two future HOF'ers, and has been consistently closer to the top echelon of talent in the league throughout his career.

At least that's how I read it.

Semantics, I guess, but his first statement was "Pierce never came close to an MVP award", which was in direct reply to my statement about Pierce's Finals MVP, (assuming I meant the Year's MVP, when in fact I had written something completely different). Again, it's best to read someone's post completely and understand it's meaning before replying so negatively, (especially when quoting them) ... I've done the same myself, so no big deal.

actually I didn't reply at all to your Finals MVP argument, which was obvious from my post. 

I was replying to your statement that "I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice"

I disagree with that whole heartedly.

Then why begin with a statement about him not winning an MVP Award, when in fact, he has? Whatever ... as I said, no biggie. They're both great players, I just don't think you can compare two guys with such completely different games and responsibilities, how much responsibility they've had to carry for their respective clubs over the years, and how Dirk's career might have played out if he had been here and Paul had been somewhere else. I'll also admit that I'm extremely bias, as Pierce is easily my favorite player on the court today. So I'll agree to disagree on this one, as I usually agree with most every other opinion you have. (TP)

[RAG50K]

Out of curiousity...who are the "great players" that Dirk has been playing with for years?

Jason Terry? Marquis Daniels? Jerry Stackhouse? Keith Van Horn?

The three best players Dirk has ever played with were Jason Kidd (well past his prime) and Steve Nash (before he really reached his ceiling) and Michael Finley (who I can't knock at all during his time in Dallas, he was awesome).

Every other player that has been key for the Mavs have either been guys who were seen as overpaid risks before they found success with Dallas (Tyson CHandler, Shawn Marion), or have failed to replicate the success they found in Dallas on a consistent basis (Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, Devin Harris).

Erick Dampier? Shawn Bradley?

 

While Dirk was in Dallas, Michael Finley made the All Star team twice, Nash made it twice and Josh Howard made it once. Also, Jason Terry and Antawn Jamison won the Sixth Man of the year.
In contrast, the only teammate (other than the Ray and KG) to make the All Star team in Pierce's career was Antoine Walker once in 2003.

Dirk's best teams have been significantly worse than Pierce's best teams.

This may be true post the Big 3 era, but also, Pierce's worst teams have been significantly worse than Dirk's worst teams. Pierce led this team to the ECF

C - Tony Battie
PF - Antoine Walker
SF - Eric Williams
SG - Paul Pierce
PG - Kenny Anderson
Bench:
C/PF - Rodney Rogers PG - Tony Delk SF - Walter McCarty PG - Erick Strickland C - Mark Blount C - Vitaly Potapenko SF - Kedrick Brown SG - Joe Forte

I don't see Dirk doing that