'98 draft - Paul or Dirk?

[Moranis]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP).  

Pierce never came close to the NBA Finals until joined by 2 other HOFers playing in a much weaker conference, while Dirk took a team of role players to the Finals in 05/06 and beat the defending champs along the way.  

What are you talking about?!? He won the 2007-2008 NBA Finals MVP Award ... he carried it around for the next month and went on three talk shows with it! It's the same award Dirk just got ... please read my posts completely before bashing them, or check your facts a little more closely. Thanks.

Seems like you guys are arguing different things. Pierce has never won a regular season MVP award (Dirk has), and I think that's what Moranis was getting at.

Yup, but that's not what my post said, which is why I suggested he read a little more closely before replying so negatively to others.

He was replying to your statement I believe with his own list of things that Pierce didn't do (Moranis is a pretty big Dirk fan IIRC), basically saying Dirk has won a MVP, and has taken a team to the Finals without the help of two future HOF'ers, and has been consistently closer to the top echelon of talent in the league throughout his career.

At least that's how I read it.

Semantics, I guess, but his first statement was "Pierce never came close to an MVP award", which was in direct reply to my statement about Pierce's Finals MVP, (assuming I meant the Year's MVP, when in fact I had written something completely different). Again, it's best to read someone's post completely and understand it's meaning before replying so negatively, (especially when quoting them) ... I've done the same myself, so no big deal.

actually I didn't reply at all to your Finals MVP argument, which was obvious from my post. 

I was replying to your statement that "I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice"

I disagree with that whole heartedly.

[BballTim]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

Does it matter that the Mavs underperformed in several of those playoffs?

Also is there a direct correlation between matchups during the regular season and playoffs?

I can't believe we are talking about the Mavs pretty much being a dynasty in the east when they have pretty much been the laughing stock of the playoffs this past decade up until now

1 trip to the Finals, 1 trip to the Western Conference Finals, 4 second round losses, 4 first round losses.

10 straight 50-win seasons. Zero times missing the playoffs in those 10 years.

THose 4 first round losses are tough to swallow, but really only the losses to Golden State and New Orleans stand out to me. Everyone knew who the Mavs were than, and they weren't as good as those Kings, or last season's Spurs (although that was close, and went 6 games).

I think laughingstock is pretty over the top.

Ok I'll soften it up....how about the most disappointing playoff team in the last decade. Besides this year which seems to be an anomaly they were always a top seed that was likely to lose in the playoffs.

I mean were you really going to be surprised if they lost to the Blazers this year?

They are a great regular season team but wow they underperformed in the playoffs

[MBz]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

See I don't know how true this is.  I think we're really under-rated Antoine Walker.  When Steve Nash was in Dallas, he was not the Steve Nash of the Phoenix Suns.  He was a borderline all-star, nothing more.  Antoine had some extremely good years in Boston.  I'd say Antoine was better at the time than anyone Dirk had.  He was scoring 20+, around 8 boards and around 5 assists per season.  Pretty legit stuff.

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

See I don't know how true this is.  I think we're really under-rated Antoine Walker.  When Steve Nash was in Dallas, he was not the Steve Nash of the Phoenix Suns.  He was a borderline all-star, nothing more.  Antoine had some extremely good years in Boston.  I'd say Antoine was better at the time than anyone Dirk had.  He was scoring 20+, around 8 boards and around 5 assists per season.  Pretty legit stuff.

I think Walker was only on the team for one of those seasons he mentioned. 04 05 when he got traded back to the C's.

[BballTim]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP). 

  I'd say that this was heavily influenced by the success of the teams they were on. If you look at their careers up to 2007 (Dirk's MVP year), Dirk's career averages were 22/9/3, PP's were 24/7/4. In the playoffs Dirk was 25/11/2 and PP was 25/9/5. Dirk did have a slightly higher PER in the regular season and the playoffs, but Dirk had an MVP, 4 of those top 7 finishes, 3 all nba 1st teams, 2 second teams and 2 3rd teams. PP, in the same number of years while putting up almost identical stats had no top 10 finishes in the MVP race and  managed to make all nba 3rd teams twice. Clearly the discrepancy in awards was far greater than any discrepancy in their individual production.

[Moranis]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

Does it matter that the Mavs underperformed in several of those playoffs?

Also is there a direct correlation between matchups during the regular season and playoffs?

I can't believe we are talking about the Mavs pretty much being a dynasty in the east when they have pretty much been the laughing stock of the playoffs this past decade up until now

1 trip to the Finals, 1 trip to the Western Conference Finals, 4 second round losses, 4 first round losses.

10 straight 50-win seasons. Zero times missing the playoffs in those 10 years.

THose 4 first round losses are tough to swallow, but really only the losses to Golden State and New Orleans stand out to me. Everyone knew who the Mavs were than, and they weren't as good as those Kings, or last season's Spurs (although that was close, and went 6 games).

I think laughingstock is pretty over the top.

Ok I'll soften it up....how about the most disappointing playoff team in the last decade. Besides this year which seems to be an anomaly they were always a top seed that was likely to lose in the playoffs.

I mean were you really going to be surprised if they lost to the Blazers this year?

They are a great regular season team but wow they underperformed in the playoffs

Isn't it possible that their record is almost solely a result of Dirk.  I mean look at Cleveland.  Now I will give you that Dallas has had better teams then Cleveland, but not by that much (especially the recent cleveland teams).  Perhaps Dirk really is that good that he can make an average team have an over inflated record, and thus the seemingly under performing in the playoffs is merely a result of the over performing in the regular season.  

I mean have you actually looked at the roster of the team that won 67 games, there is no way they should have even won 55 with that roster.  Dirk, Josh Howard, Jason Terry, an old Jerry Stackhouse, a very young Devin Harris, with Erick Dampier, Devean George, Desagna Diop, and Greg Buckner essentially comprising the rotation.  That entire team is incredibly flawed, especially defensively, and never should have been anywhere near 67 wins, which is why Dirk won the MVP.  

[indeedproceed]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

Dirk's teammates were better than Paul's until the 07/08 season. Paul's teammates since then have been substantially better than Dirk's have ever been.

[BballTim]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

See I don't know how true this is.  I think we're really under-rated Antoine Walker.  When Steve Nash was in Dallas, he was not the Steve Nash of the Phoenix Suns.  He was a borderline all-star, nothing more.  Antoine had some extremely good years in Boston.  I'd say Antoine was better at the time than anyone Dirk had.  He was scoring 20+, around 8 boards and around 5 assists per season.  Pretty legit stuff.

  If you look at any year past his second or so Antoine's stats were greater than his impact on the games. But PP and Antoine weren't on the court alone, it just seemed that way with some of the players they were on the court with.

[indeedproceed]

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

See I don't know how true this is.  I think we're really under-rated Antoine Walker.  When Steve Nash was in Dallas, he was not the Steve Nash of the Phoenix Suns.  He was a borderline all-star, nothing more.  Antoine had some extremely good years in Boston.  I'd say Antoine was better at the time than anyone Dirk had.  He was scoring 20+, around 8 boards and around 5 assists per season.  Pretty legit stuff.

I think Walker was only on the team for one of those seasons he mentioned. 04 05 when he got traded back to the C's.

04: 19-11 V the East (10th)
03: 26-4 (1st)
02: 27-3 (2nd)
01: 23-7 (4th)

[BballTim]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

Dirk's teammates were better than Paul's until the 07/08 season. Paul's teammates since then have been substantially better than Dirk's have ever been.

  They have and they haven't. The 09 playoff team had a big rotation of Perk/Baby/Scal/Moore. The 2011 playoff team finished up by starting a pg without the use of his left arm.

[Who]

I don't think Danny blows up that 2003 team if Dirk were here instead of Pierce.

[indeedproceed]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

  Isn't it also pretty compelling evidence that Dirk's teammates were much better than Paul's?

Dirk's teammates were better than Paul's until the 07/08 season. Paul's teammates since then have been substantially better than Dirk's have ever been.

  They have and they haven't. The 09 playoff team had a big rotation of Perk/Baby/Scal/Moore. The 2011 playoff team finished up by starting a pg without the use of his left arm.

Did both those teams have 3 or more All-Stars? Are both of your points centered around really important players getting injured during the year (which is not a fair indication of team construction)

Dirk won a Championship against a team that beat the Celtics while starting DeShawn Stevenson for a majority of the games, and playing Brian Cardinal, Ian Mahinmi, and Peja Stojakovic serious minutes.

If we're going to play the 'end of the bench' card, the Mavs aren't lacking. Jose Juan Barea? Would any other team in the NBA have started that guy in the Finals if they could've afforded it? Did anyone consider Chandler, Stevenson, or Marion an asset of a title worthy team at the end of the season last year? Marion, Stevenson, and Chandler were basically given to the Mavs for cap relief!

I'm not even advocating Dirk over Pierce but lets be realistic with these talking points, eh?

[BballTim]

I don't think Danny blows up that 2003 team if Dirk were here instead of Pierce.

  Really? The next 5 guys in the rotation after Antoine and PP were (post knee injury) Eric Williams, Walter McCarty, Tony Delk, Tony Battie and J.R. Bremer. Even if you include Antoine that's a worse collection of talent than the 2007 team that he broke up to get Ray and KG.

  The big difference is that with Dirk Danny would already have a great big, so he would have traded Antoine for less risky players that were pg/sg/sf types.

[footey]

I would take Dirk, but glad we got (and still have) Paul.

win win