'98 draft - Paul or Dirk?

[indeedproceed]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP). 

Pierce never came close to the NBA Finals until joined by 2 other HOFers playing in a much weaker conference, while Dirk took a team of role players to the Finals in 05/06 and beat the defending champs along the way. 

What are you talking about?!? He won the 2007-2008 NBA Finals MVP Award ... he carried it around for the next month and went on three talk shows with it! It's the same award Dirk just got ... please read my posts completely before bashing them, or check your facts a little more closely. Thanks.

Seems like you guys are arguing different things. Pierce has never won a regular season MVP award (Dirk has), and I think that's what Moranis was getting at.

[Bahku]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP). 

Pierce never came close to the NBA Finals until joined by 2 other HOFers playing in a much weaker conference, while Dirk took a team of role players to the Finals in 05/06 and beat the defending champs along the way. 

What are you talking about?!? He won the 2007-2008 NBA Finals MVP Award ... he carried it around for the next month and went on three talk shows with it! It's the same award Dirk just got ... please read my posts completely before bashing them, or check your facts a little more closely. Thanks.

Seems like you guys are arguing different things. Pierce has never won a regular season MVP award (Dirk has), and I think that's what Moranis was getting at.

Yup, but that's not what my post said, which is why I suggested he read a little more closely before replying so negatively to others.

[indeedproceed]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP). 

Pierce never came close to the NBA Finals until joined by 2 other HOFers playing in a much weaker conference, while Dirk took a team of role players to the Finals in 05/06 and beat the defending champs along the way. 

What are you talking about?!? He won the 2007-2008 NBA Finals MVP Award ... he carried it around for the next month and went on three talk shows with it! It's the same award Dirk just got ... please read my posts completely before bashing them, or check your facts a little more closely. Thanks.

Seems like you guys are arguing different things. Pierce has never won a regular season MVP award (Dirk has), and I think that's what Moranis was getting at.

Yup, but that's not what my post said, which is why I suggested he read a little more closely before replying so negatively to others.

He was replying to your statement I believe with his own list of things that Pierce didn't do (Moranis is a pretty big Dirk fan IIRC), basically saying Dirk has won a MVP, and has taken a team to the Finals without the help of two future HOF'ers, and has been consistently closer to the top echelon of talent in the league throughout his career.

At least that's how I read it.

[wdleehi]

Dirk because he is a big man. 



The top 4 big men of this era (Shaq, Duncan, KG and Dirk) have all won a title.


Can you say that about the top 4 guys at other positions? 

[makaveli]

Out of curiousity...who are the "great players" that Dirk has been playing with for years?

Jason Terry? Marquis Daniels? Jerry Stackhouse? Keith Van Horn?

The three best players Dirk has ever played with were Jason Kidd (well past his prime) and Steve Nash (before he really reached his ceiling) and Michael Finley (who I can't knock at all during his time in Dallas, he was awesome).

Every other player that has been key for the Mavs have either been guys who were seen as overpaid risks before they found success with Dallas (Tyson CHandler, Shawn Marion), or have failed to replicate the success they found in Dallas on a consistent basis (Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, Devin Harris).

Erick Dampier? Shawn Bradley?

Dirk's best teams have been significantly worse than Pierce's best teams.

LOL
Sorry but, Paul's best teammate in "pre-trade era" was Antoine Walker!
Dirk had all-stars compared to what Pierce had to work with, and in addition to his MVP season, in that same season, they were upset by the Warriors(8th seed) in 1st round!

[indeedproceed]

Out of curiousity...who are the "great players" that Dirk has been playing with for years?

Jason Terry? Marquis Daniels? Jerry Stackhouse? Keith Van Horn?

The three best players Dirk has ever played with were Jason Kidd (well past his prime) and Steve Nash (before he really reached his ceiling) and Michael Finley (who I can't knock at all during his time in Dallas, he was awesome).

Every other player that has been key for the Mavs have either been guys who were seen as overpaid risks before they found success with Dallas (Tyson CHandler, Shawn Marion), or have failed to replicate the success they found in Dallas on a consistent basis (Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, Devin Harris).

Erick Dampier? Shawn Bradley?

Dirk's best teams have been significantly worse than Pierce's best teams.

LOL
Sorry but, Paul's best teammate in "pre-trade era" was Antoine Walker!
Dirk had all-stars compared to what Pierce had to work with, and in addition to his MVP season, in that same season, they were upset by the Warriors(8th seed) in 1st round!

That's all true. Dirk's teammates have been consistently better than Pierce's if you look prior to the last 4 years.

But, if you look at the title winning teams, and the teams taken to the Finals, Dirk has done more with less.

And yes, Dirk did get ousted in the first round by the Warriors when he won his MVP. Cannot deny it, but as time has mellowed, people have worked hard to rationalize it. In hindsight, it looked like half-choke (because Dallas won 67 regular season games, and if the playoffs don't count, Dirk deserved that MVP...but 67win teams don't lose in the first round), and half terrible match-up (GSW had their number that year pretty good during the reg season).

[infiniteloop]

Love Dirk's game, but have to go with Pierce. I can't imagine The Truth playing for any other team.

[Bahku]

Paul was, is and will be the best player in that class. If Paul played with players Dirk had for years, Dallas would be putting up his statue by now. But Dirk is amazing as well, a lot of respect for him

This, (TP).

I hate to say it, but if the Mavs hadn't just won the NBA Championship and Dirk hadn't received the Finals MVP Award, threads like these would not be popping up.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with asking this question, just that it's the "Flavor-of-the-Month" type of inquiry.

I think some may have forgotten that Paul also received the Finals MVP Award, playing against a much tougher opponent in Kobe and the (then) Lakers, and that he has been more of a consistent "clutch" player and team Captain than Dirk will ever be, IMHO.

Those who think otherwise just haven't been watching closely enough for the last 13 years, (not counting Pierce's amazing college career).

Paul is a much more complete player, (pretty much shutting Kobe down for that 2008 series), and Dirk's defensive skills leave a great deal to be desired.

I don't think it's even close ... we easily made the right choice, (though Dirk had a great season this year, and is one heckuva player).

Dirk is no KG, either.

Pierce has never come close to winning a MVP award (7th was his best year - Dirk has finished 7th or better 6 times including 3 top 3 finishes and the one MVP).  

Pierce never came close to the NBA Finals until joined by 2 other HOFers playing in a much weaker conference, while Dirk took a team of role players to the Finals in 05/06 and beat the defending champs along the way.  

What are you talking about?!? He won the 2007-2008 NBA Finals MVP Award ... he carried it around for the next month and went on three talk shows with it! It's the same award Dirk just got ... please read my posts completely before bashing them, or check your facts a little more closely. Thanks.

Seems like you guys are arguing different things. Pierce has never won a regular season MVP award (Dirk has), and I think that's what Moranis was getting at.

Yup, but that's not what my post said, which is why I suggested he read a little more closely before replying so negatively to others.

He was replying to your statement I believe with his own list of things that Pierce didn't do (Moranis is a pretty big Dirk fan IIRC), basically saying Dirk has won a MVP, and has taken a team to the Finals without the help of two future HOF'ers, and has been consistently closer to the top echelon of talent in the league throughout his career.

At least that's how I read it.

Semantics, I guess, but his first statement was "Pierce never came close to an MVP award", which was in direct reply to my statement about Pierce's Finals MVP, (assuming I meant the Year's MVP, when in fact I had written something completely different). Again, it's best to read someone's post completely and understand it's meaning before replying so negatively, (especially when quoting them) ... I've done the same myself, so no big deal.

[wdleehi]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

[wdleehi]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Those three years NJ made it? 

[indeedproceed]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Those three years NJ made it? 

Well NJ only made it 2 years. One of those years Dallas made it to WCF and lost to Spurs in 6 and the Nets ended up losing in 6 as well.

In any case I just think you can't jump to a conclusion like that. To me it's on par with saying "to be fair the Mavs should have made it to the finals when they had the 1 seed in 06 07"

[CelticG1]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances.  

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

Does it matter that the Mavs underperformed in several of those playoffs?

Also is there a direct correlation between matchups during the regular season and playoffs?

I can't believe we are talking about the Mavs pretty much being a dynasty in the east when they have pretty much been the laughing stock of the playoffs this past decade up until now

[indeedproceed]

In fairness to Dirk, if his Mavs team was in the east for most of Pierce's career, there would have been multiple final appearances. 

I really don't think you can draw that conclusion at all. The Mavs have failed against several lesser teams through the playoffs the last decade and just because they were in a more competative conference does not necessarily mean that they would have "multiple final appearances". They do have multiple appearances in the finals right now in the West but you have no idea what it would have been like in the East.

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2010: 22-8 (.730, top 3 in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2009: 21-9 (.700, top 5 in NBA against Eastern teams)
 
Dallas, V Eastern teams 2008: 18-12 (.600, 12th)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2007: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2006: 27-3 (.900, 1st in NBA against Eastern teams)

Dallas, V Eastern teams 2005: 27-3 (.900, 3rd in NBA against Eastern teams)

That's pretty compelling evidence for Dallas doing better in the East.

Does it matter that the Mavs underperformed in several of those playoffs?

Also is there a direct correlation between matchups during the regular season and playoffs?

I can't believe we are talking about the Mavs pretty much being a dynasty in the east when they have pretty much been the laughing stock of the playoffs this past decade up until now

1 trip to the Finals, 1 trip to the Western Conference Finals, 4 second round losses, 4 first round losses.

10 straight 50-win seasons. Zero times missing the playoffs in those 10 years.

THose 4 first round losses are tough to swallow, but really only the losses to Golden State and New Orleans stand out to me. Everyone knew who the Mavs were than, and they weren't as good as those Kings, or last season's Spurs (although that was close, and went 6 games).

I think laughingstock is pretty over the top.