Does this year's playoffs show that Rondo is (at least) on par with Rose?

[snively]

This discussion seems all over the place, with inappropriate uses of statistics everywhere, and I don't even know what to respond to...

But to answer the OP, no, I don't think so at all.

I think it's pretty clear without getting into fancy stats like DWS, etc.  Let's just that the two players' defense are roughly equal (even though I think one is better) without getting into a statistical debate over it and look at the "pg stats" over the playoffs

Rose: 27.1 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.7 TOpg
Rondo:  14 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.7 TOpg

I feel that Rose just dominated him statistically offensively and Rose probably would have had more assists if the teammates he were passing to were as good at shooting as Rondo's teammates.  Rose had equal TOs while playing more minutes and being in control of the ball more, which tells me that he protected the ball better.

I'll just agree that their defense is "roughly equal" and anybody who is going to argue that is being really obnoxious.

Then it comes down to wins.  They both got crushed by Miami 4-1.  Rondo's celtics had the same series outcome as Rose's Bulls did, but Rondo had a far better supporting cast. 

I think these are pretty inarguable points that lead me to logically conclude that Rondo is definitely not on Rose's level.

  Haha. Where to begin? Rondo played roughly 30% of his playoff minutes with a dislocated elbow. Rose averaged 27/4/8 in the playoffs, Rondo was at 17/7/11 before the injury. Advantage Rose, but not a huge advantage.

How is that advantage Rose?  Rose rebounded and assisted less, while consuming more of his teams possessions at a similarly low scoring efficiency.  Rondo was the more effective player while healthy.

[cman88]

rondo's a consistent jumper away from being a better point guard than rose IMO...hes a much better passer, can get to the lane just as good for layups...its really his only weakness..

Rose's MVP came from finally developing that jumpshot which gives him another offensive aresnal teams have to watch out for

once he develops that shot(and he will, hes improved it alot this year) he will be DEADLY...and its something the celtics are going to need him to do next year as the big 3 are a year older and wont be able to burden the scoring load as much

[action781]

This discussion seems all over the place, with inappropriate uses of statistics everywhere, and I don't even know what to respond to...

But to answer the OP, no, I don't think so at all.

I think it's pretty clear without getting into fancy stats like DWS, etc.  Let's just that the two players' defense are roughly equal (even though I think one is better) without getting into a statistical debate over it and look at the "pg stats" over the playoffs

Rose: 27.1 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.7 TOpg
Rondo:  14 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.7 TOpg

I feel that Rose just dominated him statistically offensively and Rose probably would have had more assists if the teammates he were passing to were as good at shooting as Rondo's teammates.  Rose had equal TOs while playing more minutes and being in control of the ball more, which tells me that he protected the ball better.

I'll just agree that their defense is "roughly equal" and anybody who is going to argue that is being really obnoxious.

Then it comes down to wins.  They both got crushed by Miami 4-1.  Rondo's celtics had the same series outcome as Rose's Bulls did, but Rondo had a far better supporting cast. 

I think these are pretty inarguable points that lead me to logically conclude that Rondo is definitely not on Rose's level.

  Haha. Where to begin? Rondo played roughly 30% of his playoff minutes with a dislocated elbow. Rose averaged 27/4/8 in the playoffs, Rondo was at 17/7/11 before the injury. Advantage Rose, but not a huge advantage. I'll be obnoxious, Rondo's the better defender. He's been first team all defense the last 2 years and finished top 3 or so in DPOY voting both years. Rose?

  And it's pretty unlikely that we'd have lost 4-1 with a healthy Rondo when one of those losses was an overtime game when Rondo was basically playing with one arm the whole game. Rose had the same supporting cast he had when they beat the Heat 3 times during the season and were top seed. Rondo's supporting cast included a starting center who was playing through a broken wrist.

I'm sorry you had difficulty finding where to begin, but I see pretty clearly where to begin with my response.  I'll begin by saying that you are blatantly false with your statement that Rondo has finished top 3 in DPOY voting the past 2 seasons.  He finished 5th both years.  In my opinion, DPOY is a pretty whack way to evaluate a defender's worth to begin with considering Grant Hill finished 7th in voting.  Grant Hill is a "good" defender; Grant Hill is NOT the 7th best defender in the NBA.  The sportswriters that vote clearly don't watch all these games.  Rondo's high steal totals draw attention and attracts votes.

Also, I'd like to point out that you admitted "advantage Rose" when comparing Rose's stats of 5 games vs. Indy, 6 games vs. Atlanta, and 5 games vs. Miami compared to Rondo's stats of 4 games vs. arguably the worst defensive team in the NBA (NYK) and 2 vs. Miami.  And you admitted "advantage Rose".  I think it's pretty clear who the better players is.  I also very much agree with the argument another poster mentioned:  "Would Chicago trade Rose for Rondo?  No.  Would Boston trade Rondo for Rose?  Yes."  Point proven right there.

I do agree that Boston would have likely won more games (and maybe even the series) with a healthy Rondo.

[Change]

Monta Ellis=Derrick Rose-Media Hype

Chuckers with little else to offer. Fortunately for Rose, he plays for savant head coach in a great system. I rank Westbrook ahead of Rose. He brings a little more to the table as far as Rebounding, Defense, Hustle, etc...Rondo just below Rose because of his shot.

#1-Deron Williams & Chris Paul
#3-Russell Westbrook
#4-Derrick Rose
#5-Rajon Rondo

[cman88]

stats are pretty misleading though, the roles of Rondo and rose on their respective teams are different...

Rose is meant to be the main scorer and defer if he cant get a shot for himself.

Rondo is meant to set up the offense and pass first unless theres no other options or he has the best shot...we've seen Rondo need to become the main scorer such as the series against cleveland and hes Dominated...I think this next season will be more telling as I have a feeling that Rondo will be asked to carry more of the scoring burden

[LB3533]

As far as the MVP is concerned, Rose is overrated.

But Rose is better overall, compared to Rondo.

And I am a Rondo fan.

Opposing defenses don't really design their defense to stop Rondo, they actually really just ignore Rondo.

This is not the case for Rose.

Rose was able to do some really spectacular things in the regular season, but in the playoffs....he faltered and came back down to earth.

Think of it this way guys:

If Rondo is healthy and he is playing at his best, he could be a 20/10/10 player....if his teammates are playing well.

If Rose is healthy and playing at his best, he could be the best player in the NBA.




Lebron doesn't have to play his best and he is still the best player in the NBA.

[BballTim]

This discussion seems all over the place, with inappropriate uses of statistics everywhere, and I don't even know what to respond to...

But to answer the OP, no, I don't think so at all.

I think it's pretty clear without getting into fancy stats like DWS, etc.  Let's just that the two players' defense are roughly equal (even though I think one is better) without getting into a statistical debate over it and look at the "pg stats" over the playoffs

Rose: 27.1 ppg, 7.7 apg, 3.7 TOpg
Rondo:  14 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.7 TOpg

I feel that Rose just dominated him statistically offensively and Rose probably would have had more assists if the teammates he were passing to were as good at shooting as Rondo's teammates.  Rose had equal TOs while playing more minutes and being in control of the ball more, which tells me that he protected the ball better.

I'll just agree that their defense is "roughly equal" and anybody who is going to argue that is being really obnoxious.

Then it comes down to wins.  They both got crushed by Miami 4-1.  Rondo's celtics had the same series outcome as Rose's Bulls did, but Rondo had a far better supporting cast. 

I think these are pretty inarguable points that lead me to logically conclude that Rondo is definitely not on Rose's level.

  Haha. Where to begin? Rondo played roughly 30% of his playoff minutes with a dislocated elbow. Rose averaged 27/4/8 in the playoffs, Rondo was at 17/7/11 before the injury. Advantage Rose, but not a huge advantage. I'll be obnoxious, Rondo's the better defender. He's been first team all defense the last 2 years and finished top 3 or so in DPOY voting both years. Rose?

  And it's pretty unlikely that we'd have lost 4-1 with a healthy Rondo when one of those losses was an overtime game when Rondo was basically playing with one arm the whole game. Rose had the same supporting cast he had when they beat the Heat 3 times during the season and were top seed. Rondo's supporting cast included a starting center who was playing through a broken wrist.

I'm sorry you had difficulty finding where to begin, but I see pretty clearly where to begin with my response.  I'll begin by saying that you are blatantly false with your statement that Rondo has finished top 3 in DPOY voting the past 2 seasons.  He finished 5th both years.  In my opinion, DPOY is a pretty whack way to evaluate a defender's worth to begin with considering Grant Hill finished 7th in voting.  Grant Hill is a "good" defender; Grant Hill is NOT the 7th best defender in the NBA.  The sportswriters that vote clearly don't watch all these games.  Rondo's high steal totals draw attention and attracts votes.

  Okay, I know where to start this time. You're right, Rondo finished 5th (but best among all pgs both years) I said 3rd *or so* because I didn't bother to look it up. I don't think "blatantly false" applies in this case. And I don't think it was worth the effort to denigrate the DPOY voting because it's voted on by sportswriters since he's 1st team all defense and the coaches vote on that. They, in fact, *do* watch the game.

Also, I'd like to point out that you admitted "advantage Rose" when comparing Rose's stats of 5 games vs. Indy, 6 games vs. Atlanta, and 5 games vs. Miami compared to Rondo's stats of 4 games vs. arguably the worst defensive team in the NBA (NYK) and 2 vs. Miami.  And you admitted "advantage Rose".  I think it's pretty clear who the better players is. 

  Rose put up slightly better stats, he didn't necessarily play better or have a more positive effect on his team. And don't forget Heinrich was injured in the Orlando series so Rose put up much of his totals against a backup pg.

I also very much agree with the argument another poster mentioned:  "Would Chicago trade Rose for Rondo?  No.  Would Boston trade Rondo for Rose?  Yes."  Point proven right there.

  Point proven by a claim that's made up out of thin air. Cool.

[PseudoElite]

If Rondo improves his FT shooting to say.... 70-80% then he could be more aggressive driving to the hoop which would be great since his jumpshots are lacking.

Rose proved more than Rondo these playoffs, but obviously that has a lot to do with the fact that Rondo was injured and Rose was in ECF.

[BballTim]

I obviously haven't watched Rose as closely as Rondo, and while I'm sure he's improved defensively since his rookie season, I didn't see anything from him this year that led me to believe he was a legitimate menace on the defensive end.  Among elite point guards, I'd definitely put Westbrook and Kidd ahead of Rose.  Paul is probably more of a defensive threat, and John Wall seems destined to be. 

Come on man, seriously? I'd understand putting Rondo ahead of Rose (even though, every objective statistical measure puts Rose on par

  Aside from, let's start the list, DWS, Drtg, opponents ppp, opponent's assists allowed, opponent's rebounds allowed, steals, defensive rebounds all favor Rondo over Rose. Those are all objective statistical measures, you must have missed them somehow.

[BballTim]

If Rondo is healthy and he is playing at his best, he could be a 20/10/10 player....if his teammates are playing well.

If Rose is healthy and playing at his best, he could be the best player in the NBA.

  If Rondo scores 20 a game he's in the middle of the discussion for top 5 or so pg of all time. He excels at everything *but* scoring and scoring more clearly hasn't been a big priority for him.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

I keep seeing people talk about RR being hurt (dislocated elbow was ONLY 2 1/2 games)... you say that as if Rose wasn't injured either. Rose sprained the same ankle twice during the playoffs. Who knows what other injuries he had... you guys know about RR's injuries b/c you follow his team... whos to say Rose wasn't as injured as RR this season but played through it (I mean before his dislocation)? I don't care who is better, I know I like what we have and I'll just hope our guy does what we need at any given moment!

[bfrombleacher]

Rondo looked really good apart from that stretch in Game 4.

Whoops! I meant to say compared to Rose. While Rose soared through the regular season, he seemed to have broken down completely post regular season. His field goal percentage was appalling. Yes, LeBron James himself was defending Derrick Rose but that does not explain his previous inconsistencies.

The age old 'argument' of "swap Rose and Rondo and watch Rondo's numbers dip as Rose's climb" by web dwellers loses validation, in my opinion, when these same people insinuate how the Celtic Hall of Famers are senile with their tongue in cheek comments. While Rondo does have three Hall of Famers at his dispense, they are no longer in their former glory. Hell, they are more like glorified role players now than superstars.

Rose has just a good supporting cast as Rondo, if not better.

Does Rose have to score? I don't think so. Others may argue but that's my view. Rose has many options. But I'm aware that he is one of the elite scorers in the NBA and this is the main way he helps his teammates.

Does he have to? Not really. As I said before, I think the two point guards have about the same amount of support.

To put it simply, Rose can score but people really undermine Rondo's ability to dish.

I'm not even saying Rondo is better than Rose, I'm just saying Rose is not better than Rondo by a mile, which is what most everybody thinks. Rose is a really dynamic scorer but Rondo can do other things which the general public tend to ignore.

[Dante]

I learned in my accounting classes that statistics can be manipulated to prove almost anything: So I wont compare the assist statistics of both players. I dint watch any of the Bulls games this season except those when the Celtics beat the Bulls. But I saw a lot of plays where Rondo went by himself on a fastbreak and all he had to do was put the ball in the basket cause he was all by himself. Instead he waited for another Celtic to arrive and he fed him the ball and gotan assist for that.  Ricky Davis once missed a layup by himself and then rebounded the ball and put it back and got a rebound for a triple assist. He missed on purpose. Then the Ricky haters could not have enough space in here to really go after Ricky for his selfish style. Never saw anybody in here criticize Rondo for padding an assist when good basketball practice dictated that if you are all alone and can put the ball in the hole, PUT IT! But then C'est la vie.!

[Dante]

Rose is a better basketball player than Rondo. He was the first pick in the draft and this year he was the MVP.  Having said that, I want to give our rondo his due, cause he deserves it.  Rondo is the MVP of the Celtics. He makes our team whatever our team is. He is the oil in the engine. He is the gas in the engine. He makes our team so much better. His problem henceforth is that our team lifespan is over. Rondo cannot do the impossible. This team, with these players will not go back to what they were in 2008. That 2008 team was unique in their cohesiveness, in their desire to win; they meshed so well that they even played like they were 5 years younger. They dug into their hearts, into their own individual minds and they found strength that they didnt remember having had in years past. It was a like each one got from Santa their best wished for present in their entire lives. Physically and mental strength wise, they were above everybody else; they found out that they could do it and they decided that nothing nor nobody would deprive them of their flag - they found their UBUNTU - all of them- at the same time. Posey(sic), Allen, PJ and that sharpshooting 3 point shooting guard (I forget his name darn it) were part of that UBUNTU. But it was to last for one year only. SO BE IT.  Rondo was part of that miracle. He set the tone. And for that we have to thank him and be grateful to him. Peace. End of story.

[ejk3489]

I keep seeing people talk about RR being hurt (dislocated elbow was ONLY 2 1/2 games)... you say that as if Rose wasn't injured either. Rose sprained the same ankle twice during the playoffs. Who knows what other injuries he had... you guys know about RR's injuries b/c you follow his team... whos to say Rose wasn't as injured as RR this season but played through it (I mean before his dislocation)?

Because he only missed 1 game of the season? I mean, he was probably banged up just like every other NBA player in the league, but he couldn't have been that hurt (unlike Rondo, who missed about 15 games due to injuries). If Rose had plantar fasciitis, hamstring injuries, or a sprained pinky, I'm sure we would hear about it on ESPN or any other media outlet the very next day.