Could Rondo and S & T of Davis land us Westbrook?

[vinnie]

Not interested.  Rondo's better than Westbrook.

I could go for this

[dtrader]

Not interested.  Rondo's better than Westbrook.

He is??? That's news to me.

Westbrook is far more talented and lit up Rondo like a Christmas tree when the Celts and OKC played early last season.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity I looked up the career head to head numbers between Rondo and Westbrook.

The Celtics are 4 and 2 against the Thunder in those games with the Celtics averaging 97.3 PPG to the Thunders 89.2 PPG.

Rondo: 10.8 PPG, 1.2 ORPG, 3.8 RPG, 9.5 APG, 2.7 SPG, 3.0 TOPG, .653 FG%, 32/49 total FGs,
.000 3%, 0/1 total 3s, .125 FT%, 1/8 total FTs, 33.2 MPG.

Westbrook: 19.8 PPG, 1.8 ORPG, 3.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.3 SPG, 4.3 TOPG, .416 FG%, 42/101 Total FGs, .400 3%, 6/15 total 3s, .829 FT%, 29/35  total FTs, 33.2 MPG.

Interestingly, in only a six game sample those numbers seem to illustrate what each of these guys is as a player.  Westbrook's a player who is definitely a scorer.  He shoots a lot at a low percentage, gets to the line, and has a terrible assist to turnover ratio. Rondo, on the other hand, is not a high volume shooter or scorer, but shoots a high percentage, is a good set up guy with a good assist to turnover ratio.

Defensively, I like both players and actually think that Westbrook is behind only Rondo as a defensive and 50/50 ball playmaker among elite NBA point guards.

As you know, I prefer Rondo as a player.  I admire Westbrook's explosiveness all over the court, but Rondo's basketball intelligence, ball handling ability, creativity, and vision, coupled with his quickness and ability to get to the basketball definitely make him the hands down winner for me in a head to head comparison.  

Neither guy is a good outside shooter.  Westbrook does hit his free throws which we all know Rondo doesn't.  That's the one aspect of his game that still irks me.  Hopefully, he can improve that to at least the low to mid 70s.  If he can do that, he's the best point guard in the league for the next decade, in my opinion.    

Going into a series where they'd lay each other every game, it may be interesting to look at the head to head numbers, but to compare them as players, I think it's more imortant to look at their career numbers in general.

  I think a straight stat comparison between Rondo and other point guards to see who's better kind of misses the point. Rondo does a lot of things that don't show up on a stat sheet.

That would show that Westbrook does NOT shoot at a low percentage (and that his percentage has gone u every year he's been in the league), and that he does NOT have a horrible assist/turnover ratio (he has total assists this year of 8 in 34 mins. versus Rondos 11 in 37 mins).  Plus, Westbrook might be the second best defensive guard in the league, while Rondo isn't top 5 offensively (he wouldn't be top 10 if it weren't for his passing).

  Hoopdata breaks down shooting by shot location. At a cursory glance, it looks like Westbrook's career fg% is worse than Rondo's for all 4 ranges inside the three point line. Also, Rondo's career assist/turnover ratio is about 50% higher than Westbrook's.

His CAREER percentages may be worse, but I can't imagine his CURRENT percentages being worse (I havent seen the data).  Westbrooks shooting has improved a good deal since he came in the league, so his career averages don't accurately show the player he is today.  Plus even though you did say the averages you mentioned were within the 3 t line, westbrook has gone from having no range, to being a legitimate threat from distance.

As far as stats not being a good measure because of Rondos contributions off the stat sheet...that obviously goes both ways. You can always say this player or that player does more that doesn't show up, but if we fall back on that, it makes comparisons of ANY players meaningless because they ALL do things that a stat sheet can't quantify.

Plus, I dont think team stats are that great for player comparison discussion.  There may be stats that show Rondo having a bigger positive effect on the celts then Westbrook does on OKC, but that could easily be a consequence of the players around Rondo playing to his strengths, while the players on OKC don't adjust as well.  Once team stats are included, it brings in so many other variables that the specific player being discussed isnt in control of, that I dont think it can really be an accurate reflection of them as players.  Thats the general argument against reading too much into +/- stats in general.  I think it's reasonable to say the team stats show that Rondo may be the better player FOR THE CELTICS, but team stats can't say that he's a better player as an individual.

[BballTim]

  It's also worth point out that the biggest flaw in our offense is (partially by design) we're a terrible offensive rebounding team. Worst in the league by a large enough margin that the team that was 29th was closer to 16th than 30th. Our offense was 18th, between the Hornets and the 76ers. If we'd had the league average for offensive rebounds we'd have finished 8th, just ahead of Phoenix and Dallas. Even looking at that, the next reason we finished so low was turnovers. Swapping Rondo for Westbrook won't help with the offensive rebounds, and it *clearly* won't help with the turnovers. So the biggest problems for our offense will still be there (or be worse) and instead of a pg that gets his teammates efficient shots we'd have a pg who's not a great shot but still a volume shooter.

Why wouldn't subbing Westbrook for Rondo improve the offensive rebounds? For their careers, Westbrook has a career 6.2 offensive rebound rate, while Rondo is at 4.5. In fact, overall, their career total rebound rates are about the same. Some of this can be chalked up to the system by design, but the evidence points to Westbrook helping with offensive rebounds.

  OKC was 10th in offensive rebounds, Boston was 30th by enough of a margin that if we got 10% more offensive rebounds we'd still be 30th. The overall difference between OKC and Boston was much more than the discrepancy between Rondo and Westbrook. Clearly the system plays a huge role in this. Rondo's normally the first back on defense. I don't see how Westbrook could rebound and still fulfill that role.

And I really don't see how Westbrook subbing in for Rondo would "clearly" not help with the turnover problem. There is nearly a 10% point difference in Westbrook's favor in turnover rate when compared to Rondo and we're going to chalk it all up to Rondo passing more?

  Considering that nearly 70% of Rondo's turnovers come from passes, that's what I'd chalk it up to.

[BballTim]

Not interested.  Rondo's better than Westbrook.

He is??? That's news to me.

Westbrook is far more talented and lit up Rondo like a Christmas tree when the Celts and OKC played early last season.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity I looked up the career head to head numbers between Rondo and Westbrook.

The Celtics are 4 and 2 against the Thunder in those games with the Celtics averaging 97.3 PPG to the Thunders 89.2 PPG.

Rondo: 10.8 PPG, 1.2 ORPG, 3.8 RPG, 9.5 APG, 2.7 SPG, 3.0 TOPG, .653 FG%, 32/49 total FGs,
.000 3%, 0/1 total 3s, .125 FT%, 1/8 total FTs, 33.2 MPG.

Westbrook: 19.8 PPG, 1.8 ORPG, 3.5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.3 SPG, 4.3 TOPG, .416 FG%, 42/101 Total FGs, .400 3%, 6/15 total 3s, .829 FT%, 29/35  total FTs, 33.2 MPG.

Interestingly, in only a six game sample those numbers seem to illustrate what each of these guys is as a player.  Westbrook's a player who is definitely a scorer.  He shoots a lot at a low percentage, gets to the line, and has a terrible assist to turnover ratio. Rondo, on the other hand, is not a high volume shooter or scorer, but shoots a high percentage, is a good set up guy with a good assist to turnover ratio.

Defensively, I like both players and actually think that Westbrook is behind only Rondo as a defensive and 50/50 ball playmaker among elite NBA point guards.

As you know, I prefer Rondo as a player.  I admire Westbrook's explosiveness all over the court, but Rondo's basketball intelligence, ball handling ability, creativity, and vision, coupled with his quickness and ability to get to the basketball definitely make him the hands down winner for me in a head to head comparison.  

Neither guy is a good outside shooter.  Westbrook does hit his free throws which we all know Rondo doesn't.  That's the one aspect of his game that still irks me.  Hopefully, he can improve that to at least the low to mid 70s.  If he can do that, he's the best point guard in the league for the next decade, in my opinion.    

Going into a series where they'd lay each other every game, it may be interesting to look at the head to head numbers, but to compare them as players, I think it's more imortant to look at their career numbers in general.

  I think a straight stat comparison between Rondo and other point guards to see who's better kind of misses the point. Rondo does a lot of things that don't show up on a stat sheet.

That would show that Westbrook does NOT shoot at a low percentage (and that his percentage has gone u every year he's been in the league), and that he does NOT have a horrible assist/turnover ratio (he has total assists this year of 8 in 34 mins. versus Rondos 11 in 37 mins).  Plus, Westbrook might be the second best defensive guard in the league, while Rondo isn't top 5 offensively (he wouldn't be top 10 if it weren't for his passing).

  Hoopdata breaks down shooting by shot location. At a cursory glance, it looks like Westbrook's career fg% is worse than Rondo's for all 4 ranges inside the three point line. Also, Rondo's career assist/turnover ratio is about 50% higher than Westbrook's.

His CAREER percentages may be worse, but I can't imagine his CURRENT percentages being worse (I havent seen the data).  Westbrooks shooting has improved a good deal since he came in the league, so his career averages don't accurately show the player he is today.  Plus even though you did say the averages you mentioned were within the 3 t line, westbrook has gone from having no range, to being a legitimate threat from distance.

  Westbrook's finishing is better and his three point shooting was better this year. The rest of the nummbers haven't improved much if any over his career. But he only took 100 three point shots all year, so you'd get a lot of fluctuation there. He takes about 7% of his shots from outside the arc, or about 12% of his jumpers. I don't know that I'd call someone that takes about 1 three a game and hits them a little below the league average a huge threat from the outside. The guy doesn't hit his jumpers any better than Rondo but he takes twice as many of them. I'm starting to see why people want him so badly.

As far as stats not being a good measure because of Rondos contributions off the stat sheet...that obviously goes both ways. You can always say this player or that player does more that doesn't show up, but if we fall back on that, it makes comparisons of ANY players meaningless because they ALL do things that a stat sheet can't quantify.

  They all do things that don't show up in a stat sheet, but not all to the same extent. You always hear about Rondo being able to dominate games without scoring, and what a rare quality it is. Do you hear the same said about Westbrook?

Plus, I dont think team stats are that great for player comparison discussion.  There may be stats that show Rondo having a bigger positive effect on the celts then Westbrook does on OKC, but that could easily be a consequence of the players around Rondo playing to his strengths, while the players on OKC don't adjust as well.  Once team stats are included, it brings in so many other variables that the specific player being discussed isnt in control of, that I dont think it can really be an accurate reflection of them as players.  Thats the general argument against reading too much into +/- stats in general.  I think it's reasonable to say the team stats show that Rondo may be the better player FOR THE CELTICS, but team stats can't say that he's a better player as an individual.

  Rondo has the best (or arguably the best) passing skills and court vision in the game and he's arguably the best at directing an offense and dictating pace. If you ignore the effect of these things on our offense as a whole then I can see why you'd prefer Westbrook. Also, if you consider the strengths of Rondo I mentioned, you'll see that *any* team would benefit from those skills, not just the Celts. And you talk about the Celts playing to Rondo's strengths but clearly that's not the case. He's one of the best transition players in the league on the court with a bunch of gimpy old men.

[scaryjerry]

i dont want westbrook if we could get him for a bag of balls...gotta love how celtics fans are so critical of rondo and have some sorta praise for the most out of control PG in the league the last 2 years, and certainly the worst court vision at the position.
Now...getting Harden and Collison instead of Green and Kristic? that wouldve been nice

[ianboyextreme]

First of all, if any of ya'll have seen the association espn series, you'll see how the whole team responded to Perk being traded. Like, everyone was crying and fell apart. If Rondo got traded for Russel Westbrook, of all people to trade one of the most unique basketball players I have ever seen for, I actually think the majority of the core would quit the team on the spot.

[ianboyextreme]

And yeah, if we could've got collison or Harden in that trade it wouldve been nice. I like Green in the trade, though. That wasn't a very equal trade on the big man side.

[ThaPreacher]

First of all, if any of ya'll have seen the association espn series, you'll see how the whole team responded to Perk being traded. Like, everyone was crying and fell apart. If Rondo got traded for Russel Westbrook, of all people to trade one of the most unique basketball players I have ever seen for, I actually think the majority of the core would quit the team on the spot.

As long as they didn't take their ball and go home!  That would be terrible!

[Neurotic Guy]

In my opinion Rondo has gone from an atrocius shooter to a very bad shooter in the last 2 years.  If he goes from a very bad shooter to a slightly less than mediocre shooter in the next 2 years, Rondo will be hard to top as a PG.

Actually, if Rondo can just bump his FT% to 70% and develop a reliable 3-point shot (33% with 2+ attempts per game).  Imagine if defenders can't slack on him and if he can make them pay at the line.  I think his value will be just a notch under CP, DR and DW.

[gpap]

Actually, I just realized OKC would need to trade another player IN ADDITION to Westbrook.

Maybe Sefalosha? Regardless, I am shocked at how many would rather have Rondo!!

As for how the team would react, I don't think the big 3 would really care.

If anything, I think they would welcome a PG that can actually score with open arms.

Besides, something tells me that Pierce and Ray haven't always seen eye to eye with Rondo.

Also, for the future a Westbrook/Green combo sounds pretty [dang] dangerous.

[BballTim]

Actually, I just realized OKC would need to trade another player IN ADDITION to Westbrook.

Maybe Sefalosha? Regardless, I am shocked at how many would rather have Rondo!!

As for how the team would react, I don't think the big 3 would really care.

If anything, I think they would welcome a PG that can actually score with open arms.

Besides, something tells me that Pierce and Ray haven't always seen eye to eye with Rondo.

Also, for the future a Westbrook/Green combo sounds pretty [dang] dangerous.

  Aside from the fact that Rondo can actually score, if you think PP and RA would love playing with a volume shooter that will give them the ball on occasion then I don't know what to say.

[Rondo_is_better]

Westbrook is actually the dumbest player in the NBA.

[JT11]

Besides, something tells me that Pierce and Ray haven't always seen eye to eye with Rondo.

That's true. Awhile ago, Doc actually pulled Rondo aside and told him that his teammates hated playing with him. But that was a couple years ago, and Rondo adjusted / stopped being a jerk and they seem to have nothing but good words for him now.

[LB3533]

Yea, Rondo has had "attitude problems" just like Westbrook is having now.

Both needed and needs to learn, grow and mature.

It's nothing new.

[BballTim]

Besides, something tells me that Pierce and Ray haven't always seen eye to eye with Rondo.

That's true. Awhile ago, Doc actually pulled Rondo aside and told him that his teammates hated playing with him. But that was a couple years ago, and Rondo adjusted / stopped being a jerk and they seem to have nothing but good words for him now.

  That was Rondo's rookie year, wasn't it?