Could Rondo and S & T of Davis land us Westbrook?

[soap07]

  It's also worth point out that the biggest flaw in our offense is (partially by design) we're a terrible offensive rebounding team. Worst in the league by a large enough margin that the team that was 29th was closer to 16th than 30th. Our offense was 18th, between the Hornets and the 76ers. If we'd had the league average for offensive rebounds we'd have finished 8th, just ahead of Phoenix and Dallas. Even looking at that, the next reason we finished so low was turnovers. Swapping Rondo for Westbrook won't help with the offensive rebounds, and it *clearly* won't help with the turnovers. So the biggest problems for our offense will still be there (or be worse) and instead of a pg that gets his teammates efficient shots we'd have a pg who's not a great shot but still a volume shooter.

Why wouldn't subbing Westbrook for Rondo improve the offensive rebounds? For their careers, Westbrook has a career 6.2 offensive rebound rate, while Rondo is at 4.5. In fact, overall, their career total rebound rates are about the same. Some of this can be chalked up to the system by design, but the evidence points to Westbrook helping with offensive rebounds.

  OKC was 10th in offensive rebounds, Boston was 30th by enough of a margin that if we got 10% more offensive rebounds we'd still be 30th. The overall difference between OKC and Boston was much more than the discrepancy between Rondo and Westbrook. Clearly the system plays a huge role in this. Rondo's normally the first back on defense. I don't see how Westbrook could rebound and still fulfill that role.

And I really don't see how Westbrook subbing in for Rondo would "clearly" not help with the turnover problem. There is nearly a 10% point difference in Westbrook's favor in turnover rate when compared to Rondo and we're going to chalk it all up to Rondo passing more?

  Considering that nearly 70% of Rondo's turnovers come from passes, that's what I'd chalk it up to.

Again, part of the reason most of Rondo's turnovers are passing turnovers because he doesn't consistently attack the basket and is afraid to shoot the ball or take contact.

With Westbrook, 16% of his turnovers come from offensive fouls - which makes sense, he attacks the basket more. Rondo's number for that is 7%.

Yes, only 40% or so of Westbrook's turnovers are passing turnovers. Part of the reason he had to take more of the scoring load was a lack of quality offensive teammates, other than Durant. But make no mistake, Westbrook had a much bigger offensive load to handle than Rondo.

I'm not buying that Westbrook is more susceptible to turnovers than Rondo, contrary to the numbers, because Rondo passes more. Westbrook has way more ball handling turnovers than Rondo - of course he does, he had almost TWICE the usage rate that Rondo did and was a much better scorer. It's not easy to create open shots for yourself.

In regards to the offense being better with Westbrook off the court than Rondo - what are we talking about, 10 minutes a game? That is surely too small a sample size to make that judgement. Additionally, OKC had a better bench than the C's. Of course that's going to be the case.

[nickagneta]

  It's also worth point out that the biggest flaw in our offense is (partially by design) we're a terrible offensive rebounding team. Worst in the league by a large enough margin that the team that was 29th was closer to 16th than 30th. Our offense was 18th, between the Hornets and the 76ers. If we'd had the league average for offensive rebounds we'd have finished 8th, just ahead of Phoenix and Dallas. Even looking at that, the next reason we finished so low was turnovers. Swapping Rondo for Westbrook won't help with the offensive rebounds, and it *clearly* won't help with the turnovers. So the biggest problems for our offense will still be there (or be worse) and instead of a pg that gets his teammates efficient shots we'd have a pg who's not a great shot but still a volume shooter.

Why wouldn't subbing Westbrook for Rondo improve the offensive rebounds? For their careers, Westbrook has a career 6.2 offensive rebound rate, while Rondo is at 4.5. In fact, overall, their career total rebound rates are about the same. Some of this can be chalked up to the system by design, but the evidence points to Westbrook helping with offensive rebounds.

  OKC was 10th in offensive rebounds, Boston was 30th by enough of a margin that if we got 10% more offensive rebounds we'd still be 30th. The overall difference between OKC and Boston was much more than the discrepancy between Rondo and Westbrook. Clearly the system plays a huge role in this. Rondo's normally the first back on defense. I don't see how Westbrook could rebound and still fulfill that role.

And I really don't see how Westbrook subbing in for Rondo would "clearly" not help with the turnover problem. There is nearly a 10% point difference in Westbrook's favor in turnover rate when compared to Rondo and we're going to chalk it all up to Rondo passing more?

  Considering that nearly 70% of Rondo's turnovers come from passes, that's what I'd chalk it up to.

Again, part of the reason most of Rondo's turnovers are passing turnovers because he doesn't consistently attack the basket and is afraid to shoot the ball or take contact.

With Westbrook, 16% of his turnovers come from offensive fouls - which makes sense, he attacks the basket more. Rondo's number for that is 7%.

Yes, only 40% or so of Westbrook's turnovers are passing turnovers. Part of the reason he had to take more of the scoring load was a lack of quality offensive teammates, other than Durant. But make no mistake, Westbrook had a much bigger offensive load to handle than Rondo.

I'm not buying that Westbrook is more susceptible to turnovers than Rondo, contrary to the numbers, because Rondo passes more. Westbrook has way more ball handling turnovers than Rondo - of course he does, he had almost TWICE the usage rate that Rondo did and was a much better scorer. It's not easy to create open shots for yourself.

In regards to the offense being better with Westbrook off the court than Rondo - what are we talking about, 10 minutes a game? That is surely too small a sample size to make that judgement. Additionally, OKC had a better bench than the C's. Of course that's going to be the case.

Actually 10 minutes per game for an entire 82 game season is NOT a too small a sample size to gauge whether the respective offenses of Boston and Oklahoma runner better or worse when Rondo and Westbrook are off the court. Just because the minutes are low, the percentage of a game where they are off the court is more than large enough as is the 82 games in which the season took place.

I would not try to minimalize the importance those stats. They are quite telling and there is way more than enough data to consider it a worthy statistic.

[XxSMSxX]

What do you think?

Why would you want to trade Rondo for a PG....who isn't a PG? Westbrook is a SG locked in a PG's body. His mentality is to score and pound the rock into the lane, I definitely wouldn't trade one of the best playmakers in the league for a ball hog

[mcshane41]

I'd pass on that trade.

[Dante]

Only in your dreams will Oklahoma trade Westbrook regardless the kind of body he is strapped in. Isnt Lebron a Point Forward: wasnt Bird a point forward? Didnt Magic play the Center position? What are you talking about that Westbrook cannot run a team cause he is a 2 and not a 1. Get real and face reality. You play your best regardless of where they play you. and Westbrook is one of the best regardless where he is played.

[RJ87]

We could put Westbrook out there with Baby and take bets on who'd pass the ball least. Like a game within a game.

LOL.

Russell is a fantastic scorer, but that's about it. I watched the Thunder this offseason and I was shocked at the lack of touches for Durant - Russell just called his own number way too much and the team suffered overall.

It's funny how people complained that Rondo wasn't getting Ray Allen enough touches down the stretch of the season - can you imagine Russell in Rondo's place? Ray would NEVER see the ball. And KG's 16 footers would be a distant memory.

[Celtics18]

 It's also worth point out that the biggest flaw in our offense is (partially by design) we're a terrible offensive rebounding team. Worst in the league by a large enough margin that the team that was 29th was closer to 16th than 30th. Our offense was 18th, between the Hornets and the 76ers. If we'd had the league average for offensive rebounds we'd have finished 8th, just ahead of Phoenix and Dallas. Even looking at that, the next reason we finished so low was turnovers. Swapping Rondo for Westbrook won't help with the offensive rebounds, and it *clearly* won't help with the turnovers. So the biggest problems for our offense will still be there (or be worse) and instead of a pg that gets his teammates efficient shots we'd have a pg who's not a great shot but still a volume shooter.

Why wouldn't subbing Westbrook for Rondo improve the offensive rebounds? For their careers, Westbrook has a career 6.2 offensive rebound rate, while Rondo is at 4.5. In fact, overall, their career total rebound rates are about the same. Some of this can be chalked up to the system by design, but the evidence points to Westbrook helping with offensive rebounds.

  OKC was 10th in offensive rebounds, Boston was 30th by enough of a margin that if we got 10% more offensive rebounds we'd still be 30th. The overall difference between OKC and Boston was much more than the discrepancy between Rondo and Westbrook. Clearly the system plays a huge role in this. Rondo's normally the first back on defense. I don't see how Westbrook could rebound and still fulfill that role.

And I really don't see how Westbrook subbing in for Rondo would "clearly" not help with the turnover problem. There is nearly a 10% point difference in Westbrook's favor in turnover rate when compared to Rondo and we're going to chalk it all up to Rondo passing more?

  Considering that nearly 70% of Rondo's turnovers come from passes, that's what I'd chalk it up to.

Again, part of the reason most of Rondo's turnovers are passing turnovers because he doesn't consistently attack the basket and is afraid to shoot the ball or take contact.

With Westbrook, 16% of his turnovers come from offensive fouls - which makes sense, he attacks the basket more. Rondo's number for that is 7%.

Yes, only 40% or so of Westbrook's turnovers are passing turnovers. Part of the reason he had to take more of the scoring load was a lack of quality offensive teammates, other than Durant. But make no mistake, Westbrook had a much bigger offensive load to handle than Rondo.

I'm not buying that Westbrook is more susceptible to turnovers than Rondo, contrary to the numbers, because Rondo passes more.

Westbrook has way more ball handling turnovers than Rondo - of course he does, he had almost TWICE the usage rate that Rondo did and was a much better scorer. It's not easy to create open shots for yourself.

In regards to the offense being better with Westbrook off the court than Rondo - what are we talking about, 10 minutes a game? That is surely too small a sample size to make that judgement. Additionally, OKC had a better bench than the C's. Of course that's going to be the case.

Of course it's not easy to create open shots for yourself. However, many seem to think that creating shots for others is a piece of cake.  Creating great shots for others takes as much basketball talent, if not more.  

And this part is purely my subjective opinion, but it also creates much more pleasurable basketball to watch.  This is actually an important factor for me in how I feel about my favorite team.  I defend Rondo so vehemently, partially because I want to continue seeing a style of basketball based on sharing the ball among everyone, and not having one "hero" who is responsible for all the offense while everyone else gets out of the way (or in Miami's case "two heroes").  

I happen to believe that Rondo is a rare talent who can continue to run the collective style of offense that the Celtics have employed during the current GARP era with creativity and success after his three celebrated teammates are gone.  

I understand that some want to get rid of him for a scorer, and don't really appreciate the style of play that he brings.  Admittedly, it's a little rough on my basketball sensibilities when my team is among the top field goal shooting teams, among the top assist teams, and among the top assist to turnover ratio teams in the league, yet the offense is below average in efficiency.  

I guess I should just throw up my hands at getting to see the game I love played the way I love to see it played, and give in to wanting to watch a bunch of ugly, uninspired, and uninspiring, bully style "hero ball."

[2short]

Wow away for a bit and this comes up.   I wouldn't trade rondo for Westbrook straight up.  Wow

[JT11]

Of course it's not easy to create open shots for yourself. However, many seem to think that creating shots for others is a piece of cake.  Creating great shots for others takes as much basketball talent, if not more.  

And this part is purely subjective opinion, but it also create much more pleasurable basketball to watch.  This is actually an important factor for me in how I feel about my favorite team.  I defend Rondo so vehemently, partially because I want to continue seeing a style of basketball based on sharing the ball among everyone, and not having one "hero" who is responsible for all the offense while everyone else gets out of the way (or in Miami's case "two heroes").  

I happen to believe that Rondo is a rare talent who can continue to run the collective style of offense that the Celtics have employed during the current GARP era with creativity and success after his three celebrated teammates are gone.  

I understand that some want to get rid of him for a scorer, and don't really appreciate the style of play that he brings.  Admittedly, it's a little rough on my basketball sensibilities when my team is among the top field goal shooting teams, among the top assist teams, and among the top assist to turnover ratio teams in the league, yet the offense is below average in efficiency.  

I guess I should just throw up my hands at getting to see the game I love played the way I love to see it played, and give in to wanting to watch a bunch of ugly, uninspired, and uninspiring, bully style "hero ball."

Said it better than I ever could. TP.

[snively]

Russell is a fantastic scorer, but that's about it.

I disagree.  Westbrook's problem is that he thinks he's a fantastic scorer.  His actual strengths are playing energetic, physical defense, rebounding the ball, and using his speed to generate open, high % shots for his teammates.  Like Rondo he's a pretty good scorer in the right situations.

If he were to ditch those long-range Js and be a bit more judicious in his forays to the rim, he'd be a much more effective player.

[XxSMSxX]

Only in your dreams will Oklahoma trade Westbrook regardless the kind of body he is strapped in. Isnt Lebron a Point Forward: wasnt Bird a point forward? Didnt Magic play the Center position? What are you talking about that Westbrook cannot run a team cause he is a 2 and not a 1. Get real and face reality. You play your best regardless of where they play you. and Westbrook is one of the best regardless where he is played.

I dont want to trade a great passing/defensive/high IQ PG for a PG who volume shoots without any actual warrant, is wreckless with the ball, and doesn't like to pass the ball . He has one of the best shooters/scorers in the league on his team in Durant and has clearly ignored him/ operated outside of the offense many times before including many times in these very playoffs. You think Pierce,Ray, KG and especially Doc wanna play with a guy like that? I couldn't care how athletic he is or how pretty his layups are he's not a real PG and has a low Bball IQ

[LilRip]

I dont want to trade a great passing/defensive/high IQ PG for a PG who volume shoots without any actual warrant, is wreckless with the ball, and doesn't like to pass the ball . He has one of the best shooters/scorers in the league on his team in Durant and has clearly ignored him/ operated outside of the offense many times before including many times in these very playoffs. You think Pierce,Ray, KG and especially Doc wanna play with a guy like that? I couldn't care how athletic he is or how pretty his layups are he's not a real PG and has a low Bball IQ

Westbrook is a defensive beast as well. He is what he is now because he's young and immature. Wasn't Pierce pretty much like this as well? If anyone will be able to reign Westbrook in, it'll be Doc (or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich). He has terrific energy and an absolute fearlessness that I wish Rondo showed more often. Oh, and he actually makes his FT's.

And wasn't he a 2-guard pretty much his whole HS and College career but when he joined the NBA he had to start learning a new position?? Pretty impressive what he's done so far if you ask me. That to me shows high IQ. Also, Rondo has +2 years of experience on Westbrook, while being surrounded by again, Doc Rivers, and 3 HOFers and other vets who have been through so many battles. Heck, even just the veteran presence of Perkins was a huge boost to the Thunder team! Give Westbrook 2 more years and i'm sure he's going to be a top-tier playmaker as well.

As for his mistakes in the playoffs, i'm sure we could say that about a LOT of the Thunder players. (e.g. Durant turning it over a bunch of times down the stretch, Durant heaving a contested 3 with 6sec on the shot clock which was blocked by Marion, Harden settling for a contested stepback 3 late and then fouling out, etc. etc.) Aside from Nick Collison who was absolutely great, it was an epic collapse by the Thunder typical of a young team which pressed the panic button down the stretch in the playoffs. And the more experienced and more savvy veteran team took it. If that was Al Jefferson, Rondo and Delonte West, they likely would've done the same thing (assuming they were good enough to have reached that far in the playoffs).

I'm not saying we trade away Rondo. I like Rondo. But i find the Westbrook-bashing on this thread absolute garbage.

[XxSMSxX]

I dont want to trade a great passing/defensive/high IQ PG for a PG who volume shoots without any actual warrant, is wreckless with the ball, and doesn't like to pass the ball . He has one of the best shooters/scorers in the league on his team in Durant and has clearly ignored him/ operated outside of the offense many times before including many times in these very playoffs. You think Pierce,Ray, KG and especially Doc wanna play with a guy like that? I couldn't care how athletic he is or how pretty his layups are he's not a real PG and has a low Bball IQ

Westbrook is a defensive beast as well. He is what he is now because he's young and immature. Wasn't Pierce pretty much like this as well? If anyone will be able to reign Westbrook in, it'll be Doc (or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich). He has terrific energy and an absolute fearlessness that I wish Rondo showed more often. Oh, and he actually makes his FT's.

Pierce came into a team that was absolute ass so that doesn't apply here. And that fearlessness is what's going to get westbrook injured sooner or later. I don't want a headcase who once again is a SG locked in a PGs body. Whether he grows out of this mentality i don't know. But as of RIGHT now he is what he is. A fantastic athlete who doesn't have any clue how to run the PG spot.

And wasn't he a 2-guard pretty much his whole HS and College career but when he joined the NBA he had to start learning a new position?? Pretty impressive what he's done so far if you ask me. That to me shows high IQ. Also, Rondo has +2 years of experience on Westbrook, while being surrounded by again, Doc Rivers, and 3 HOFers and other vets who have been through so many battles. Heck, even just the veteran presence of Perkins was a huge boost to the Thunder team! Give Westbrook 2 more years and i'm sure he's going to be a top-tier playmaker as well.

And i can say give him two years and he'll have suffered a career ending injury, both of what we just said are both just as likely to happen. Also it's easier to look good as a guard in the NBA because it's ridiculously easy to get into the lane and score/kickout because of the no handchecking rules and 3 second violation. It takes real IQ to be a Jason Kidd/Steve Nash type point who run offenses almost perfectly. Westbrook is clearly not on that level. Rondo is which is why i wouldn't trade him.

As for his mistakes in the playoffs, i'm sure we could say that about a LOT of the Thunder players. (e.g. Durant turning it over a bunch of times down the stretch, Durant heaving a contested 3 with 6sec on the shot clock which was blocked by Marion, Harden settling for a contested stepback 3 late and then fouling out, etc. etc.) Aside from Nick Collison who was absolutely great, it was an epic collapse by the Thunder typical of a young team which pressed the panic button down the stretch in the playoffs. And the more experienced and more savvy veteran team took it. If that was Al Jefferson, Rondo and Delonte West, they likely would've done the same thing (assuming they were good enough to have reached that far in the playoffs).

Once again your pulling hypotheticals out of your ass. Westbrook routinely played wrecklessly and did not look for his teammates like a REAL PG should do. You could say hes young and immature, or you could say he's a headcase, whether or not he outgrows this i dont know. But as of right now Westbrook is not a real PG. He's a combo guard masquerading as a point.

I'm not saying we trade away Rondo. I like Rondo. But i find the Westbrook-bashing on this thread absolute garbage.

I don't hate Westbrook and i dont mean to come off as bashing, but i'm sick of people overrating scorers and underrating true PGs

[LilRip]

I dont want to trade a great passing/defensive/high IQ PG for a PG who volume shoots without any actual warrant, is wreckless with the ball, and doesn't like to pass the ball . He has one of the best shooters/scorers in the league on his team in Durant and has clearly ignored him/ operated outside of the offense many times before including many times in these very playoffs. You think Pierce,Ray, KG and especially Doc wanna play with a guy like that? I couldn't care how athletic he is or how pretty his layups are he's not a real PG and has a low Bball IQ

Westbrook is a defensive beast as well. He is what he is now because he's young and immature. Wasn't Pierce pretty much like this as well? If anyone will be able to reign Westbrook in, it'll be Doc (or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich). He has terrific energy and an absolute fearlessness that I wish Rondo showed more often. Oh, and he actually makes his FT's.

Pierce came into a team that was absolute ass so that doesn't apply here. And that fearlessness is what's going to get westbrook injured sooner or later. I don't want a headcase who once again is a SG locked in a PGs body. Whether he grows out of this mentality i don't know. But as of RIGHT now he is what he is. A fantastic athlete who doesn't have any clue how to run the PG spot.

And wasn't he a 2-guard pretty much his whole HS and College career but when he joined the NBA he had to start learning a new position?? Pretty impressive what he's done so far if you ask me. That to me shows high IQ. Also, Rondo has +2 years of experience on Westbrook, while being surrounded by again, Doc Rivers, and 3 HOFers and other vets who have been through so many battles. Heck, even just the veteran presence of Perkins was a huge boost to the Thunder team! Give Westbrook 2 more years and i'm sure he's going to be a top-tier playmaker as well.

And i can say give him two years and he'll have suffered a career ending injury, both of what we just said are both just as likely to happen. Also it's easier to look good as a guard in the NBA because it's ridiculously easy to get into the lane and score/kickout because of the no handchecking rules and 3 second violation. It takes real IQ to be a Jason Kidd/Steve Nash type point who run offenses almost perfectly. Westbrook is clearly not on that level. Rondo is which is why i wouldn't trade him.

As for his mistakes in the playoffs, i'm sure we could say that about a LOT of the Thunder players. (e.g. Durant turning it over a bunch of times down the stretch, Durant heaving a contested 3 with 6sec on the shot clock which was blocked by Marion, Harden settling for a contested stepback 3 late and then fouling out, etc. etc.) Aside from Nick Collison who was absolutely great, it was an epic collapse by the Thunder typical of a young team which pressed the panic button down the stretch in the playoffs. And the more experienced and more savvy veteran team took it. If that was Al Jefferson, Rondo and Delonte West, they likely would've done the same thing (assuming they were good enough to have reached that far in the playoffs).

Once again your pulling hypotheticals out of your ass. Westbrook routinely played wrecklessly and did not look for his teammates like a REAL PG should do. You could say hes young and immature, or you could say he's a headcase, whether or not he outgrows this i dont know. But as of right now Westbrook is not a real PG. He's a combo guard masquerading as a point.

I'm not saying we trade away Rondo. I like Rondo. But i find the Westbrook-bashing on this thread absolute garbage.

I don't hate Westbrook and i dont mean to come off as bashing, but i'm sick of people overrating scorers and underrating true PGs

wait, wait. So are you actually against players being fearless and attacking the rim because they're likely to get injured???

and at some point, people have to stop pigeon-holing good players in positions. I think Westbrook has a scorer's mentality but he has decent playmaking abilities. Example, is Lebron a point? or a SF? how about Wade? because Wade can run a team as well. again, you say his fearlessness is what's going to get Westbrook injured sooner or later. If we go back to the case of the Celtics, which by all accounts is a jumpshooting team, would you rather they not attack the basket at some points in the game? Being able to get to the rim and the freethrow line is an asset. And with that you have to be fearless. That was my claim and i lauded Westbrook for having that mentality. If Lebron stopped attacking the rim, his game would suffer. Asking Westbrook to stop attacking the rim because it's "unsafe" or "potentially career-ending" would greatly take away from his game. The same could be said for D-Rose or Deron Williams.

Rondo takes a bunch of hits. But i'm sure you don't want him to stop attacking either, especially when it puts the defenses on their heels. Or did you rather not want to see Rondo attack that Cavs defense last year in the playoffs when we ousted them in 6? because i mean, he's probably going to suffer an injury by your logic.

I'm not saying he's out of control. He is. He's also trigger happy. But again, my claim is that if anyone will be able to rein him in (harness that energy, if you will), it will be Doc. or Phil Jax. or Popovich. But i don't care about those other 2. It's all about Doc. My case in point was Pierce, who Doc made into a more efficient and unselfish player DESPITE having crappier teammates in Szczerbiak or Ricky D. It was rough at the start, but eventually, Pierce bought in. If we do acquire Westbrook, i dont know how, i'm sure Doc will be able to make him buy in. He's able to teach Rondo who is probably just as stubborn, if not more stubborn than Westbrook.

You are underrating how difficult it still is to get into the lane. You think it's easy doing what D-Rose and Rondo do? They need to be crafty and quick. If it was so easy, guys like the super athletic Shannon Brown should be lighting up defenses too, or even Avery Bradley . Westbrook isn't on the level of J-Kidd and Nash in terms of setting up his teammates, but he's not low IQ. and given how well he's progressed since entering the league (and everyone knows that PG is probably the toughest position to learn in the NBA), it's very likely that he will continue that progression. Or of course, he could suffer a career-ending injury because again, of his recklessness. I'm sure that's why we love players like Mikki Moore or Mark Blount who don't want to get their hands dirty.

I'm not here to compare Westbrook and Rondo. But i'm tired of people claiming "he's low IQ" or insinuating that he's not a good player or something. It's not just you. There are many before you who posted on this thread who said or insinuated the same thing. My point is, he's a terrific player. If you keep using the qualifier of "as of right now", as if Westbrook has already peaked and will be unable to progress (which is highly unlikely), well then we shouldn't even sign Jeff Green, because as of right now, he's been passive and hasn't shown anything that would warrant an extension (or the QO). But we probably should, because i'm confident in Jeff Green's abilities. I think he's capable of being pretty dang good, perhaps a fringe all-star. As of right now, Avery Bradley can't run a team, so his career as a PG is probably finished. Call me crazy, but i think he can still progress in terms of playmaking. As of many years ago, Perkins couldn't break the rotation and a guy named Brandon Hunter (remember him?) was outplaying him and getting minutes, so we probably should've given up on him, but DA kept Perk safe from the expansion draft, signed him to a cheap extension that expired this year, and we got productive years from him. Of course, all those could've been for nought if they all just suffer career-ending injuries.

[XxSMSxX]

I dont want to trade a great passing/defensive/high IQ PG for a PG who volume shoots without any actual warrant, is wreckless with the ball, and doesn't like to pass the ball . He has one of the best shooters/scorers in the league on his team in Durant and has clearly ignored him/ operated outside of the offense many times before including many times in these very playoffs. You think Pierce,Ray, KG and especially Doc wanna play with a guy like that? I couldn't care how athletic he is or how pretty his layups are he's not a real PG and has a low Bball IQ

Westbrook is a defensive beast as well. He is what he is now because he's young and immature. Wasn't Pierce pretty much like this as well? If anyone will be able to reign Westbrook in, it'll be Doc (or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich). He has terrific energy and an absolute fearlessness that I wish Rondo showed more often. Oh, and he actually makes his FT's.

Pierce came into a team that was absolute ass so that doesn't apply here. And that fearlessness is what's going to get westbrook injured sooner or later. I don't want a headcase who once again is a SG locked in a PGs body. Whether he grows out of this mentality i don't know. But as of RIGHT now he is what he is. A fantastic athlete who doesn't have any clue how to run the PG spot.

And wasn't he a 2-guard pretty much his whole HS and College career but when he joined the NBA he had to start learning a new position?? Pretty impressive what he's done so far if you ask me. That to me shows high IQ. Also, Rondo has +2 years of experience on Westbrook, while being surrounded by again, Doc Rivers, and 3 HOFers and other vets who have been through so many battles. Heck, even just the veteran presence of Perkins was a huge boost to the Thunder team! Give Westbrook 2 more years and i'm sure he's going to be a top-tier playmaker as well.

And i can say give him two years and he'll have suffered a career ending injury, both of what we just said are both just as likely to happen. Also it's easier to look good as a guard in the NBA because it's ridiculously easy to get into the lane and score/kickout because of the no handchecking rules and 3 second violation. It takes real IQ to be a Jason Kidd/Steve Nash type point who run offenses almost perfectly. Westbrook is clearly not on that level. Rondo is which is why i wouldn't trade him.

As for his mistakes in the playoffs, i'm sure we could say that about a LOT of the Thunder players. (e.g. Durant turning it over a bunch of times down the stretch, Durant heaving a contested 3 with 6sec on the shot clock which was blocked by Marion, Harden settling for a contested stepback 3 late and then fouling out, etc. etc.) Aside from Nick Collison who was absolutely great, it was an epic collapse by the Thunder typical of a young team which pressed the panic button down the stretch in the playoffs. And the more experienced and more savvy veteran team took it. If that was Al Jefferson, Rondo and Delonte West, they likely would've done the same thing (assuming they were good enough to have reached that far in the playoffs).

Once again your pulling hypotheticals out of your ass. Westbrook routinely played wrecklessly and did not look for his teammates like a REAL PG should do. You could say hes young and immature, or you could say he's a headcase, whether or not he outgrows this i dont know. But as of right now Westbrook is not a real PG. He's a combo guard masquerading as a point.

I'm not saying we trade away Rondo. I like Rondo. But i find the Westbrook-bashing on this thread absolute garbage.

I don't hate Westbrook and i dont mean to come off as bashing, but i'm sick of people overrating scorers and underrating true PGs

wait, wait. So are you actually against players being fearless and attacking the rim because they're likely to get injured???

wat? i never said that

and at some point, people have to stop pigeon-holing good players in positions. I think Westbrook has a scorer's mentality but he has decent playmaking abilities. Example, is Lebron a point? or a SF? how about Wade? because Wade can run a team as well. again, you say his fearlessness is what's going to get Westbrook injured sooner or later. If we go back to the case of the Celtics, which by all accounts is a jumpshooting team, would you rather they not attack the basket at some points in the game? Being able to get to the rim and the freethrow line is an asset. And with that you have to be fearless. That was my claim and i lauded Westbrook for having that mentality. If Lebron stopped attacking the rim, his game would suffer. Asking Westbrook to stop attacking the rim because it's "unsafe" or "potentially career-ending" would greatly take away from his game. The same could be said for D-Rose or Deron Williams.

Did you just compare Lebron James and Dwayne Wade to Russell Westbrook as playmakers? And im not saying being fearless is a bad trait in a basketball player, but attacking the rim repeatedly without even looking at your options and matchups offensively especially when your not even converting your shots at a high clip is not something i want in my PG. Which is exactly what was happening with Westbrook all playoffs long. Banging his head against a wall

Rondo takes a bunch of hits. But i'm sure you don't want him to stop attacking either, especially when it puts the defenses on their heels. Or did you rather not want to see Rondo attack that Cavs defense last year in the playoffs when we ousted them in 6? because i mean, he's probably going to suffer an injury by your logic.

See above

I'm not saying he's out of control. He is. He's also trigger happy. But again, my claim is that if anyone will be able to rein him in (harness that energy, if you will), it will be Doc. or Phil Jax. or Popovich. But i don't care about those other 2. It's all about Doc. My case in point was Pierce, who Doc made into a more efficient and unselfish player DESPITE having crappier teammates in Szczerbiak or Ricky D. It was rough at the start, but eventually, Pierce bought in. If we do acquire Westbrook, i dont know how, i'm sure Doc will be able to make him buy in. He's able to teach Rondo who is probably just as stubborn, if not more stubborn than Westbrook.

Where do you keep getting that Pierce was a selfish player? His second option was one of if not the biggest chuckers of all time. Never really complained about him or how bad his team was. Stayed loyal to his team his whole career. And Pierce is known as one of the best crunch time playmakers in the league he has plenty of game winning assists.

Im not saying Westbrook can't change how he approaches the game, but why would Doc risk that when you already have one of the smartest points in the league? Because he can.... score better? Play defense a notch below Rondo's? Be not as good a playmaker or passer? Not run an offense as well nor exploit matchups as well as Rondo does?

You are underrating how difficult it still is to get into the lane. You think it's easy doing what D-Rose and Rondo do? They need to be crafty and quick. If it was so easy, guys like the super athletic Shannon Brown should be lighting up defenses too, or even Avery Bradley . Westbrook isn't on the level of J-Kidd and Nash in terms of setting up his teammates, but he's not low IQ. and given how well he's progressed since entering the league (and everyone knows that PG is probably the toughest position to learn in the NBA), it's very likely that he will continue that progression. Or of course, he could suffer a career-ending injury because again, of his recklessness. I'm sure that's why we love players like Mikki Moore or Mark Blount who don't want to get their hands dirty.

It's very easy to get in the lane in today's game. I'm not saying anybody can be a star but there's dozens of guys in the league that can get you 25 a night if you give em enough shots. No 3 second violation + no handchecking + even more touch fouls means you can't even touch or steer an offensive player. It's definitely easier to get in the lane now than it was 10-20 years ago.

And im not saying Westbrook is low IQ overall, but he's low IQ compared to those guys. And he defitely doesn't have as high an IQ as Rondo.

I'm not here to compare Westbrook and Rondo. But i'm tired of people claiming "he's low IQ" or insinuating that he's not a good player or something. It's not just you. There are many before you who posted on this thread who said or insinuated the same thing. My point is, he's a terrific player. If you keep using the qualifier of "as of right now", as if Westbrook has already peaked and will be unable to progress (which is highly unlikely), well then we shouldn't even sign Jeff Green, because as of right now, he's been passive and hasn't shown anything that would warrant an extension (or the QO). But we probably should, because i'm confident in Jeff Green's abilities. I think he's capable of being pretty dang good, perhaps a fringe all-star. As of right now, Avery Bradley can't run a team, so his career as a PG is probably finished. Call me crazy, but i think he can still progress in terms of playmaking. As of many years ago, Perkins couldn't break the rotation and a guy named Brandon Hunter (remember him?) was outplaying him and getting minutes, so we probably should've given up on him, but DA kept Perk safe from the expansion draft, signed him to a cheap extension that expired this year, and we got productive years from him. Of course, all those could've been for nought if they all just suffer career-ending injuries.

So your pretty much saying Westbrook can become a better PG? I never said anything to the contrary, So can Rondo, Rose and alot of others. But he aint worth given up Rondo for