Could Rondo and S & T of Davis land us Westbrook?

[BballTim]

First of all this isn't meant as a shot to Rondo; it's pretty clear what he brings to the table.  But the C's need scoring right now.  If Rondo is so good at setting players up and making them better, then why was our offense so stagnant with him running the show? 

  Our offense generally isn't stagnant with Rondo running the show. We score pretty efficiently. Do we go through dry spells on occasion? Yes, but all teams do.

Rondo gets way to much credit for racking up all those early season assists passing to 4 guys who have all scored over 20K points in their careers.  The very large majority of his assists are due to the player making the shot, and just a very small amount are the ones where he essentially got the basket with an amazing play (this is true of every PG not just Rondo).

  I think you're seriously underestimating how well Rondo runs the offense and passes the ball. Maybe you should consider how the team struggles to score with Rondo not in the game in spite of having all of those great scorers.

[greenpride32]

The very large majority of his assists are due to the player making the shot

I would contend that EVERY SINGLE ASSIST EVER was a result of a player making a shot other than the player getting the assist.

But you have to give more credit to Rondo than that. I mean Dennis Johnson played with Ainge, Bird, McHale, Parish and Walton yet never had 11 assists per game. Cousy played with Sharman, Heinsohn, Russell Jones and Sharman and never racked up 11 assists per game.

Invariably you have to be able to see or envision the pass, make the pass accurately and make it so that it makes your team mates job of scoring easier. Rondo is exceptional at that and saying he gets 11 assists because he played with four great players isn't giving him nearly the credit he deserves as a floor general, pass first PG.

DJ was a scorer.  I never saw Cousy play, but judging by his stats he was the same.

Look at all the PG's Allen, Pierce, Garnett, and Shaq played with over their careers.  There are going to be some scrubs and some decent ones, but they got their points regardless. 

[greenpride32]

 Our offense generally isn't stagnant with Rondo running the show. We score pretty efficiently. Do we go through dry spells on occasion? Yes, but all teams do.

Look at our point totals in some of the games towards the end of the year:

77 MIA
81 CHI
83 ATL
85 MIN (W)
81 CHA
87 MEM
89 NOR (W)
77 HOU
79 NJN
86 PHI
89 MIL (W)

Pretty pathetic; you aren't going to win too many games by not breaking 90 points in this league.  Not all of the blame goes to Rondo of course.  My point is so many are saying Rondo makes the offense so much better; well he played in most of those games; if he's so good and important to the O where is the impact?  I really don't see it. 

[slamtheking]

 Our offense generally isn't stagnant with Rondo running the show. We score pretty efficiently. Do we go through dry spells on occasion? Yes, but all teams do.

Look at our point totals in some of the games towards the end of the year:

77 MIA
81 CHI
83 ATL
85 MIN (W)
81 CHA
87 MEM
89 NOR (W)
77 HOU
79 NJN
86 PHI
89 MIL (W)

Pretty pathetic; you aren't going to win too many games by not breaking 90 points in this league.  Not all of the blame goes to Rondo of course.  My point is so many are saying Rondo makes the offense so much better; well he played in most of those games; if he's so good and important to the O where is the impact?  I really don't see it. 

those would be post-trade games wouldn't they?  the offense in general stunk once Danny messed with the team's chemistry.  I would say the entire starting unit and bench brigade were all to blame for the offensive woes

[slamtheking]

Westbrook was healthy all year. Rondo has plantar faceitis, a bad back, and bad wrist and a dislocated elbow. Yet Rondo averaged less turnovers per game, more assists per game, more steals per game, a higher FG% per game, a higher eFG% per game, ;ess personal fouls per game, a better defensive rating per game and was voted first team All Defense.


Yet we want to trade a Rondo on a bargain 5 year contract with another player for Westbrook who's going to be looking for a max contract this off season?

Not a smart move

touche Nick, touche.  That was such a well-reasoned response, it was worthy of PLamb 

[BballTim]

 Our offense generally isn't stagnant with Rondo running the show. We score pretty efficiently. Do we go through dry spells on occasion? Yes, but all teams do.

Look at our point totals in some of the games towards the end of the year:

77 MIA
81 CHI
83 ATL
85 MIN (W)
81 CHA
87 MEM
89 NOR (W)
77 HOU
79 NJN
86 PHI
89 MIL (W)

Pretty pathetic; you aren't going to win too many games by not breaking 90 points in this league.  Not all of the blame goes to Rondo of course.  My point is so many are saying Rondo makes the offense so much better; well he played in most of those games; if he's so good and important to the O where is the impact?  I really don't see it. 

  The team was in a slump based in a large part to injuries (including to Rondo). If you don't see the impact of Rondo on our offense check out how well we do with him out of the game, or check out how well our offense played earlier this year when Rondo was out with injuries.

  And consider our playoff games vs Miami this year. Our offense was ok with Rondo playing and terrible with him on the bench. Does the fact that our offense wasn't great mean he didn't make a difference, or does the fact that we scored much better with him playing mean that he did make a difference? I'd argue the latter.

[Smitty77]

Westbrook is out of control emotionally!!  He is a HEAD case!!  He clearly has anger issues as evidenced in the playoffs.  Did you see him cussing and disrespecting his coach after his coach pulled him and then brilliantly left him out the entire next quarter (4th)?

We think Rondo is a head case:-))  Nothing like a very spoiled and selfish Russell Westbrook.  Let the Thunder have him.  As everyone else pointed out very aptly, Rondo is a FAR superior defender and distributor.  Not even close.

Smitty77

[BballTim]

 Our offense generally isn't stagnant with Rondo running the show. We score pretty efficiently. Do we go through dry spells on occasion? Yes, but all teams do.

Look at our point totals in some of the games towards the end of the year:

77 MIA
81 CHI
83 ATL
85 MIN (W)
81 CHA
87 MEM
89 NOR (W)
77 HOU
79 NJN
86 PHI
89 MIL (W)

Pretty pathetic; you aren't going to win too many games by not breaking 90 points in this league.  Not all of the blame goes to Rondo of course.  My point is so many are saying Rondo makes the offense so much better; well he played in most of those games; if he's so good and important to the O where is the impact?  I really don't see it. 

  It's also worth point out that the biggest flaw in our offense is (partially by design) we're a terrible offensive rebounding team. Worst in the league by a large enough margin that the team that was 29th was closer to 16th than 30th. Our offense was 18th, between the Hornets and the 76ers. If we'd had the league average for offensive rebounds we'd have finished 8th, just ahead of Phoenix and Dallas. Even looking at that, the next reason we finished so low was turnovers. Swapping Rondo for Westbrook won't help with the offensive rebounds, and it *clearly* won't help with the turnovers. So the biggest problems for our offense will still be there (or be worse) and instead of a pg that gets his teammates efficient shots we'd have a pg who's not a great shot but still a volume shooter.

[soap07]

It should be noted that Westbrook's numbers have steadily improved every year. His turnover rate his rookie year was 17.6, now down to 15.9, while his usage rate has gone up. His assist percentage, PER, TS%, steal percentage, free throw percentage, and points have all gone up. His dRTG has improved too since his rookie year, although marginally.

In the meantime, so has the overall OKC offense, from 99, to 105, to 110 in oRTG.

On the other hand, Rondo's TS% of .495 was his lowest since his rookie year. His rebounding rate (7.2) was the lowest of his career. His PER has steadily declined over the last couple years - in 2010-2011, Rondo was at 17.8, which puts him at average-to-solid...Westbrook's was at 23.6, which put him among the elite. Rondo's oRTG has also steadily declined over the last three years, from 114, 111, to 104 this year. His dRTG has seen a marginal decline, although its such a fluky stat that it's tough to read into it at all.


Rondo also posted the highest TOV% of his career (24.3), while Westbrook posted the lowest of his (15.9). Now, some posters have suggested that this is a result of Rondo being more of a passer and being more likely to turn the ball over since TOV% is directly linked to usage. This may certainly account for some of the disparity. I would also suggest that Rondo's inability to score or unwillingness to also increased his turnover tendencies that led to poor decision making, similar to what we see from Westbrook every now and then.

[soap07]

  It's also worth point out that the biggest flaw in our offense is (partially by design) we're a terrible offensive rebounding team. Worst in the league by a large enough margin that the team that was 29th was closer to 16th than 30th. Our offense was 18th, between the Hornets and the 76ers. If we'd had the league average for offensive rebounds we'd have finished 8th, just ahead of Phoenix and Dallas. Even looking at that, the next reason we finished so low was turnovers. Swapping Rondo for Westbrook won't help with the offensive rebounds, and it *clearly* won't help with the turnovers. So the biggest problems for our offense will still be there (or be worse) and instead of a pg that gets his teammates efficient shots we'd have a pg who's not a great shot but still a volume shooter.

Why wouldn't subbing Westbrook for Rondo improve the offensive rebounds? For their careers, Westbrook has a career 6.2 offensive rebound rate, while Rondo is at 4.5. In fact, overall, their career total rebound rates are about the same. Some of this can be chalked up to the system by design, but the evidence points to Westbrook helping with offensive rebounds.

And I really don't see how Westbrook subbing in for Rondo would "clearly" not help with the turnover problem. There is nearly a 10% point difference in Westbrook's favor in turnover rate when compared to Rondo and we're going to chalk it all up to Rondo passing more?

[chambers]

Rondo>Westbrook.

Now if we got our hands on CP3 without giving up Rondo, then I wouldn't mind RW slotting in at the starting 2 spot- still, he's always going have a the problem of commanding the ball, so I would rather have him playing the 2 spot with Rondo as the PG, because CP3 commands the ball 99% of the time too.

Rondo dumps all over Westbrook though, decision making and shot selection for brook' is just heinous a lot of the time.

[SHAQATTACK]

What do you think?

Nope.

CP3?   

[LilRip]

if Rondo knew how to make teams pay when they play him for the pass, this thread wouldn't even exist. When Rondo's looking to rack up assists, it's almost like 4 on 5. What opposing teams need to do is play tight on our big 3, play loose defense on Rondo because he will pass the ball unless he's super wide-open and the recipient of the pass will always be Big Baby. and once Baby gets the ball, you know the shot is going up regardless of how much time is left on that shot clock.

[Yogi]

   Westbrook is a superior athlete to Rondo without a doubt.  If Rondo is a freak then Westbrook is a monster.  Rondo is a top 5 point guard in the league.  Westbrook, even the almighty MVP, couldn't run a decent offense even when they were faced with elimination. 
   They take more shots than anyone on their teams, which means other players can't get a rhythm.  Even if it's just Baby or himself, Rondo gets an open shot, or a mismatch every single possession.  Rose and Westbrook either try and score over three people or make a late pass leading mostly to contested shots. 
   Of course Rose and Westbrook will improve, they are very young.  But they have a clear limitation as point guards because of their lack of intelligence and vision.  Rondo just has to improve his shooting, which is only a matter of time in the NBA.  In other words, as a point-guard Rondo has a much higher ceiling, while Rose and Westbrook will have a very difficult time improving how they run an offense. 
   They have their strengths however.  They will be elite scorers who take many shots.  They are almost like a smaller Dwayne Wade.  Different style, but not what I want to see in Boston.  I don't want to see Westbrook take more shots than Ray, Paul and KG. 

[BballTim]

It should be noted that Westbrook's numbers have steadily improved every year. His turnover rate his rookie year was 17.6, now down to 15.9, while his usage rate has gone up. His assist percentage, PER, TS%, steal percentage, free throw percentage, and points have all gone up. His dRTG has improved too since his rookie year, although marginally.

In the meantime, so has the overall OKC offense, from 99, to 105, to 110 in oRTG.

On the other hand, Rondo's TS% of .495 was his lowest since his rookie year. His rebounding rate (7.2) was the lowest of his career. His PER has steadily declined over the last couple years - in 2010-2011, Rondo was at 17.8, which puts him at average-to-solid...Westbrook's was at 23.6, which put him among the elite. Rondo's oRTG has also steadily declined over the last three years, from 114, 111, to 104 this year. His dRTG has seen a marginal decline, although its such a fluky stat that it's tough to read into it at all.

  Again, though, these are all comparisons of individual production. The Celts score much better when Rondo plays, the Thunder score a little better with Westbrook on the bench. The Celts eFG% is 5 points higher when Rondo plays, the Thunders is 2.2% worse when Westbrook plays. You need to account for this when you compare them.