Author Topic: Why did the Celtics lose to the Heat? (merged)  (Read 21492 times)

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Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2011, 01:40:04 PM »

Offline winsomme

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Injuries, mostly, including mid-season injuries.

Whatever dictated moving Tony Allen.

Injuries dictated moving Perk.  Injuries cost us on the court.

Give me a healthy Marquis, Perk, Shaq, JO, Rondo, BBD, and Delonte, and I think we beat Miami in 6, at most (and that's assuming they had a healthy Haslem).  Unfortunately, injuries are part of the game, and we gambled on injury-prone players.  It just didn't work out.
Fixed and agreed.

Danny has already owned that mistake. He said they only offered him two years and that opened the door for MEM. If he had to do it again he said he would have gone harder after TA.


Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2011, 01:41:11 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Injuries, mostly, including mid-season injuries.

Injuries dictated moving Perk.  Injuries cost us on the court.

Give me a healthy Marquis, Perk, Shaq, JO, Rondo, BBD, and Delonte, and I think we beat Miami in 6, at most (and that's assuming they had a healthy Haslem).  Unfortunately, injuries are part of the game, and we gambled on injury-prone players.  It just didn't work out.

I'd switch in "functional" for "healthy" and I'd still say we beat the Heat.

do you really think injuries dictated the Perk deal?

I'd say a mis-assessment of injuries made the Perk deal seem appealing. that is, Shaq from the beginning of the season made Perk seem not as important to our winning.

unfortunately, Shaq from the beginning of the season never reappeared.

  It's hard to argue the trade was unrelated to Daniels going down.

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2011, 01:43:43 PM »

Offline jdpapa3

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In order for me:

1. Injuries: Like Jon has been saying, you can make a strong case that we are up 3-2 going back up to Boston if we get a 95% Rondo for games 4 and 5. I have trouble blaming a 39 year old Shaq's injury since that comes with the territory of a guy that age.

2. Referees: Heat with a .420 FTA/FGA against a top defense just doesn't sit well with me. I thought we took it to the hole a decent amount and weren't getting the same calls. Joel Anthony was finally held accountable for fouling people in the last game of the series.

3. Glen Davis' insane dropoff: Glen Davis didn't kill us at center before the trade and then started to. Glen Davis + Big 4 was lethal in the regular season as our most used lineup and then leaked points in the playoffs...in both matchups. This guy got his talent sucked out by aliens, was hurt, or thought that it would be a good idea to be awful in the playoffs and then state that he should be starting somewhere in the league.

Why did the Celtics lose to the Heat?
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2011, 01:45:43 PM »

Offline paulcowens

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In the immediate sense, I'd say that it was obviously the injury to Rondo.  If we were going to beat the Heat, it was going to take the best of Rondo, and Rondo HAD been warming to the task, starting in the second half of game two.  But Dwayne Wade showed that the NBA is now a league where you win by intentionally taking out the opposing team's best player.  Anyone think he'll try that stunt on Derrick Rose?  Probably that would be too obvious, and plus,  Rose is physically stronger than Rondo, and plus, the league will protect Rose where they refused to protect Rondo and the Celtics (letting Wade tee off all series), so maybe not.   But who knows?  He got away with it once, and might think he can do it again.

The overarching factor was, equally obviously, I'd say, The Trade.  It seems impossible to count the ways that The Trade was a ghastly disaster.

For starters, because of The Trade, we lost our starting center.  Our main advantage over the Heat, apart from Rondo, was the power coming from our bigs.  If we had had Perkins starting and the O'Neils coming off the bench we would have dominated the Heat down low, and we needed to do that.  Instead, we were reduced to trying to turn Garnett into a dominant low post presence.  That's never been his game.  He's capable of being a low post force as an extra thing, not as the main thing.  

And, we lost the anchor of our defense.  People never get tired of saying that Perkins wouldn't have made a difference against the Heat, because they aren't powerful at center anyway.  What a superficial way to think about defense that is!  Our defense was predicated on the strong support at the center of it coming from Perkins;  he was the (hulking) spider at the center of the web.  Jermaine did what he could to replace Perk's defense, but he's just not a starting center anymore.  Perkins was the key piece of our defensive puzzle;  not a spectacular defender, but a necessary one.   Rondo, for example, is able to gamble more freely on defense when he knows that the Big Guy is back there.  And while our defense was still pretty good without Perkins, but it wasn't the crushing force it had once been.

Of course, folks love to point out that we had a top record in the league without Perkins this year.  That's true.  Danny did a brilliant job of acquiring not one, but TWO late career HOF-type centers to cover for Perk, while he was gone.   And Shaq and Jermaine, in turn, did a brilliant job of covering for Perkins, early in the season, even though they had to tag-team it, depending on which one was more healthy, from game to game.  It took a LOT to cover for Perk, which shows how important he really was to us, and thank goodness he came back as soon as he did, because, by the time Perkins came back, both O'Neils were pretty much down for the count (though they both did their valiant best to come back for the playoffs [and Jermaine remarkably successfully, or else we probably wouldn't have gotten as far as we did]).

Basically, trading Perkins contradicted what had appeared to be DANNY'S OWN PLAN for how the season would work out.  As I understood it, the plan initially was for Shaq and Jermaine to cover for Perkins until he came back, and then to play backup/stopgap roles.  Why didn't Danny stick to this plan?   I'm pretty sure we would have rolled right through the Heat with Perkins starting and the O'Neils coming off the bench.  According to Danny, it was because we desperately needed someone to cover for Marquise Daniels, but that never made a bit of sense.  You don't fix a hole on your bench by making a hole in your starting lineup.  That doesn't even begin to make sense.  Folks have also claimed that Danny wanted to enhance our athleticism.  But how can making us extremely old and extremely gimpy at center possibly enhance our athleticism?  The only way it could do that would be if Jeff Green was some kind of all-star type player.

And, of course, that brings us to Jeff Green.   I like Green.  I think he can be a nice player for us, possibly, some day.  But it was delusional in the extreme to think that he was going to come to the Celtics and instantly be a major factor for us.  The best thing on his resume is scoring, and he's not exactly a barnburner there.   People just seemed obsessed with the fact that he was a lottery choice.   They rubbed on that thought like it was a rabbit's foot, like it would make his anaemic play turn into dynamic rock-the-world-off-the-bench play.  

Perhaps trading Perkins for Green could have been justified had it been done after the season was over.   After all, the argument could be made that we had no chance to re-sign Perkins, and that by trading him, we'd at least get something for him.  It was all too obvious that the main reason Danny made The Trade was to unload Perkins as a potential contract problem;  Danny even admitted this, in a rare moment of candor, saying that he probably wouldn't have made the deal if Perkins had re-signed.  But how can anyone possibly justify making such a trade, based on contract concerns, just as the team entered the homestretch hot in pursuit of a championship?   I thought the Celtics weren't like other teams, that the Celtics way involved putting winning first, and winning championships first of all.  

And that brings us to what are often called 'the intangibles'.   Some of those intangibles are not very intangible.  For example, when Danny decided to not only make The Trade, but several other deals as well, he brought about such wholesale changes to the lineup, that the season was basically set back to preseason.  We became a team that had to relearn the plays, re-establish chemistry, etc., etc., with just a month to go in the season and seeding on the line!!!!  How crazy was that?  No one else in the league was going to wait until we had a chance to figure it all out.  In fact, Rondo had to beg Doc to simplify the playbook going into the playoffs (having lost our first seed);  that's how bad it was.

Is it even possible to overestimate how crazy it is to reset the personnel of a team that is LEADING the championship hunt, on the verge of the playoffs?  

Other intangibles are more actually intangible than the team not knowing the playbook, but they can be even more important.   What  are these Celtics without Ubuntu?   And how were they supposed to maintain the intensity of their 'ubuntu' when a guy widely acknowledged as the emotional heart of the team was suddenly sent packing?   The team was obviously really hurt by this, and I think it's amazing how well they recovered.  It just wasn't enough.  Nowhere near enough.

This can't be overemphasized.  The special spirit these Celtics had AS A TEAM made ubuntu famous.  It was their secret weapon.  Every team they faced knew that they could never quite achieve the cohesion that the Celtics could rise to.  The Trade changed that.

And how were the players supposed to react to the way the Team front office demonstrated a lack of commitment to winning a championship, when they made a trade that was obviously about avoiding a contract dispute?  How could Doc and Danny tell them that 'it's all about winning', when it manifestly WASN'T?!  Athletes aren't idiots.  They can read between the lines just as well as anyone else.

With a month to go in the season, a leading championship contender should be working on pulling it all together, in order to peak for the playoffs.  But the Celtics were trying to figure out how to piece it all together, because of The Trade.  There's a world of difference between those two things.  And some players were more confused than others.   Paul Pierce, I think, didn't have to change a whole lot.  But Ray Allen now had  a little more difficulty running off picks and screens.  The timing wasn't quite the same, and Allen is, if nothing else, the preeminent timing player.   Garnett found himself unexpectedly thrust into the role of being the team's main force down low.    KG has always been a guy on the move, a guy who can power down low, slip outside, set screens, make passes: Mr. Mercurial.   Big Baby is a guy who likes to know his role.  He'd become very comfortable with being the team's sixth man.  Now it looked to him  like Jeff Green was brought in to be sixth man.  Why on earth is anyone surprised that Davis began to 'lose himself', as he himself put it?  He became confused about what aspects of his game to emphasize and began forcing his shooting.  Is he really to blame?

And then there was Rondo.  Much has been said about Rondo missing Perkins.   Even so, it's probably been underestimated.   Rondo brings to the game of basketball a unique blend of emotion and intellect.  He's hypersensitive, brainy and intuitive.  How many times have we seen him charging to the defense of his Bigs?  Of course he missed, Perkins, a lot.  A lot.

But there's more to it.   Losing Perkins changed the age balance on the team.  We went from being a team with a top six composed of three grizzled vets and three young players, to a team with a top four or five, depending on Jermaine's health, composed of Rondo and a bunch of vets.  Rondo was already having trouble establishing himself as the team's leader before The Trade.  After The Trade, he really had no chance at all.  He became the odd man out.

In general, The Trade made the Celtics a FAR older team, even though Perk and Green and Nate and Nenad are all fairly young players.   A lot of folks are claiming that we were destined to lose to the Heat because they are so athletic.  Well, the Heat ARE athletic, obviously, but we weren't an unathletic team.  We were  an OLD team, and The Trade made us a lot older.

In so many ways, the Trade was one of the most insane things I've ever seen in sports.  I think it is an immense tribute to the Big Four and to the team that they made it as far into the playoffs as they did.

Why did we lose to the Heat?  The immediate reason was the Wade takedown of Rondo, and the larger reason was The Trade.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 01:55:04 PM by paulcowens »

Re: Why did the Celtics lose to the Heat?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2011, 01:49:55 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  Long post. I didn't read all of it yet, but at the beginning you seemed to be saying that we'd have dominated them on offense on the low post with Perk starting. I'm skeptical of this. And while I agree that his defense would help I think that Wade and Jame both hit quite a few more jumpers than what I usually see from them, especially in the first few games.

Re: Why did the Celtics lose to the Heat?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2011, 01:58:22 PM »

Offline paulcowens

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  Long post. I didn't read all of it yet, but at the beginning you seemed to be saying that we'd have dominated them on offense on the low post with Perk starting. I'm skeptical of this. And while I agree that his defense would help I think that Wade and Jame both hit quite a few more jumpers than what I usually see from them, especially in the first few games.


I hear you, but I'd say that 's a simplistic way to think about defense.   For example, with Perkins back there, it would be easier for the front line players to play tighter and to take more risks.  Defense is a dynamic thing, not just additive.  It has a lot to do with the freedom defenders feel they have to attack the offense.

Yes, the post is long.  I write what I feel I have to say.  I'm not so much concerned with whether or not folks read it, though of course, I try to write clearly enough and cogently enough that some will perhaps want to.

Thanks.

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2011, 01:59:03 PM »

Offline Finkelskyhook

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I don't blame anybody.  Danny gambled on vets and lost.  The only problem I have is which vets he went after.  On the other hand, (If, according to him, he likes the new CBA), Jermaine will contribute a lot next season when he's playing for a contract.  I think going for both O'Neals was a serious reach.  The trade was necessary or we wouldn't have had enough healthy bodies to put on the court.  

But I think laying down with .30 left and not fighting to the final buzzer is a horrible way to end the season.  With the number of miracle comebacks in the playoffs this season alone...2 by us, I will never understand why Rivers waved the white flag.

Re: Why did the Celtics lose to the Heat?
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2011, 02:01:07 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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I'll give you a TP just for the amount of keystrokes. ;D
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Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2011, 02:14:31 PM »

Offline Eja117

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The trade(s)......and this is just me but Danny's lying about it doesn't help.


If you say something like "I would do it again" and "We're a great team and we're more athletic and Jeff Green is great" it makes a team think either "Why is our GM lying" or "then why do I feel like I suck? What's wrong with me?"

Just tell the ugly truth....."I may have made a huge mistake and the players will have to overcome and win in spite of that"

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2011, 02:21:36 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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 The trade was necessary or we wouldn't have had enough healthy bodies to put on the court.  

*A* trade was necessary, but it didn't have to be THE trade.  If Danny couldn't have gotten us a second-string small forward without giving up our starting center...  well, then he's not a very good GM.  Could have been Anthony Parker, could have been a dozen other players.  Not like there's a shortage of guys who do what Jeff Green did.  If it meant giving up a first rounder (a *late* first rounder in a *bad* draft)...  well, that would have been better than giving up the most-healthy of our three bigs. 

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2011, 02:54:44 PM »

Offline JBcat

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Well for starters the game Paul Pierce got thrown out really hurt us.  We were right there and could have taken the game at the time it happened.   We should have left Miami with the series tied 1 to 1.

Letting James Jones explode for 25 points in 1 game is not acceptable. 


Miami made a lineup change in games 4 and 5 starting Joel Anthony instead of big Z.   I think that might have thrown KG off.    I actually think Joel Anthony quietly had a big impact on the series.

We did outplay Miami in games 4 and 5 (leading throughout the game) but just blew it down the stretch.   That botched play the end of regulation in game 4 really hurt.   We could have tied the series 2 to 2.  Different ballgame after that.   

As far as rotations go I thought Krstic played really well in game 5.  Maybe he was over his bruised knees and maybe we should have used him more in this series and Baby less.  With Rondo hurt I would have liked to see West play alot more.  He has proved in the past to be the second best player on a playoff Cavs team before.   

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2011, 03:08:03 PM »

Offline jc3celticsphan

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Not keeping leroid james and roid rage wade out of the paint... perimeter defense was the biggest factor 2nd was turnovers 3rd was rebounding...MUST IMPROVE THESE 3 !!!!!!

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2011, 03:09:34 PM »

Offline Jon

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Again, while other people have legitimate complaints, if we have a healthy Rondo, despite all those problem, we definitely win Game 4 and we probably win Game 5.  If that happens, we likely win the series and all those other complaints wouldn't matter. 

Re: Who or what would you blame for losing to Miami?
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2011, 03:12:14 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Again, while other people have legitimate complaints, if we have a healthy Rondo, despite all those problem, we definitely win Game 4 and we probably win Game 5.  If that happens, we likely win the series and all those other complaints wouldn't matter. 
True, but we didn't.  It's nice to have a good enough and deep enough team to win despite adversity instead of losing because of it.

I don't think the 08 team loses because of something like that.  Now if two centers were hurt too maybe they did.  But that's another thing. We traded a healthy center and relied on unhealthy ones.

Re: Why did the Celtics lose to the Heat?
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2011, 03:12:15 PM »

Offline Jon

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Again, none of the other stuff really matters if Rondo is healthy.  If Rondo is healthy, the C's never go to overtime in Game 4.  If he's healthy in Game 5, the 5-8 point lead is a 10-13 point lead and we never give it up. 

Other people make good points about things that could help the team.  But it's not like Miami doesn't have flaws either.  And had one of their All Stars been as ineffective as Rondo due to injury, there's no way they would've won the series either.  And that, not the slew of other flaws, would've been the reason they lost the series.