2011 CB Historical Draft - Draft Thread

[Roy H.]

Roy - even with the Shaq's production vs Wallace he is only one man.

As great as Shaq was - yes he needed Kobe to win.

And how could you call Ben Wallace "just" a very good defensive player? 4 Time defensive player of the year?

The logic with Rodman is that yes he could defend all spots - but for our team we didn't need that.

We have GP, Rondo and Dumars defending the perimeter quite well, IMO. And then you add in the mobile and spry KG in his youth and that is IMO the strongest defense out there.

Defense wins championships.

The unfortunate thing with this draft is that I think folks here are under-rating Defense.

Offense fills the seats, but Defense wins the games, and I believe my Defense will get this team deep into any playoff series.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Ben Wallace is going to be going up against all-time greats.  The last time he went up against all-time greats on a big stage, he was routinely getting outscored by large margins.  To me, that hurts.

Let's look at it this way.  Player A scores 20 points, but allows player B to score 16 points.  Player C scores 8 points, but allows player B to score 10 points.  Who was more valuable in a matchup against Player B?

It's important to have well-rounded guys.  I see your team as the inverse to Indiana, who I also ranked low relative to the other teams.  The Pacers have too many defensive holes, in my mind.  To me, your team has too many offensive ones (again, relative to the other teams in the league).

[Roy H.]

Best offensive team:  Denver?

Best defensive team(s):  LA, Seattle?

Nothing for Boston on the Def side? The best 2 defensive guards and Timmy and Ewing. That adds up to a lot of D.

Definitely very good, I just wouldn't necessarily say the best.  (Btw, I think Portland has the best defensive guard in Moncrief, but again, that's subjective.)

[Roy H.]

Best offensive team:  Denver?

Best defensive team(s):  LA, Seattle?

Those are hard, though.  For instance, with Denver, I think they'll score the most points.  However, I think other teams can make a strong argument that they're more adaptable to any style of offense, and/or have more ways they can hurt you.

How did Kareem match up against the wider bigs?

Could he match up with someone w/ Ewing or Dunacn's size?

In his prime, Kareem was one of the very best defenders of his era.  I think the image a lot of folks have is of late-80s Kareem, but back in the day he was excellent on both ends.

[KCattheStripe]

I went into this game thinking that defense and the ability to move the ball would be a difference maker in a battle of all time greats, I'm glad to see most other people agree. I think my team is murder to guard because of their ability and willing ness to move the ball and our defense is just stifling.

[33-00-32]

If I had to rank them

East

76ers
Heat
Bulls
Celtics (AI lowered the grade)
Pacers
Hawks



West

Port
Sea
Mem
Mavs
Lakers
Den

AI is a bench guy who will play a team game with talented players around him.

After living in Philly for most of his career, I am never going to buy that.


AI will go in believing he is the man and will cause nothing but distractions till he is in the place he think he belongs. 


AI works when AI is the only offensive threat with a defensive team built around him and an easy playoff path. 

I think if he ever had any decent help you might have seen different. At the first sign of AI acting up his Gtown alum Ewing will put his cornrows in a head lock while Hondo and Clyde beat him senseless, while Timmy keeps telling him over and over, "you better be good, you better be good..." (Timmy's too nice for any beat downs). We're not talking about Clarence Weatherspoon and Jerry Stackhouse here.

So you are saying they will make him quit.  Like he did in Memphis. 


With the amount of talent all these teams have, one overly "me" player kills a team. 


AI is a negative in this type of league.  There are plenty of players that can score with the volume shooting he took that might play a little defense and not be all about "me"

So now Memphis of 09-10 (AI's 14th season) is what you're using to compare to my group of Hall of Famer's??? Sorry but nobody from that team has even come close to being selected for this draft and AI might have had a good point.

[StartOrien]

The Pacers have too many defensive holes, in my mind.  To me, your team has too many offensive ones (again, relative to the other teams in the league).

Charles Barkley is #31 on the all time defensive-win share list. I don't know what that means, but you probably do.

DEFEND YOURSELF, ROY

[wdleehi]

If I had to rank them

East

76ers
Heat
Bulls
Celtics (AI lowered the grade)
Pacers
Hawks



West

Port
Sea
Mem
Mavs
Lakers
Den

AI is a bench guy who will play a team game with talented players around him.

After living in Philly for most of his career, I am never going to buy that.


AI will go in believing he is the man and will cause nothing but distractions till he is in the place he think he belongs. 


AI works when AI is the only offensive threat with a defensive team built around him and an easy playoff path. 

I think if he ever had any decent help you might have seen different. At the first sign of AI acting up his Gtown alum Ewing will put his cornrows in a head lock while Hondo and Clyde beat him senseless, while Timmy keeps telling him over and over, "you better be good, you better be good..." (Timmy's too nice for any beat downs). We're not talking about Clarence Weatherspoon and Jerry Stackhouse here.

So you are saying they will make him quit.  Like he did in Memphis. 


With the amount of talent all these teams have, one overly "me" player kills a team. 


AI is a negative in this type of league.  There are plenty of players that can score with the volume shooting he took that might play a little defense and not be all about "me"

So now Memphis of 09-10 (AI's 14th season) is what you're using to compare to my group of Hall of Famer's??? Sorry but nobody from that team has even come close to being selected for this draft and AI might have had a good point.

Nope.  Just looking at what was suppose to be "mature AI"


If "mature AI" quits, why would I believe in "Immature AI"?

[KCattheStripe]

The Pacers have too many defensive holes, in my mind.  To me, your team has too many offensive ones (again, relative to the other teams in the league).

Charles Barkley is #31 on the all time defensive-win share list. I don't know what that means, but you probably do.

DEFEND YOURSELF, ROY

It means 30 other players were better than him at defense.

[StartOrien]

Best offensive team:  Denver?

Best defensive team(s):  LA, Seattle?

Those are hard, though.  For instance, with Denver, I think they'll score the most points.  However, I think other teams can make a strong argument that they're more adaptable to any style of offense, and/or have more ways they can hurt you.

How did Kareem match up against the wider bigs?

Could he match up with someone w/ Ewing or Dunacn's size?

In his prime, Kareem was one of the very best defenders of his era.  I think the image a lot of folks have is of late-80s Kareem, but back in the day he was excellent on both ends.

Ya, thats kinda why I asked. I'm much more familiar with the play of late 80's Kareem and have only heard the folk tales of when he was the best player in the league in the 70's.

[GreenFaith1819]

Roy - even with the Shaq's production vs Wallace he is only one man.

As great as Shaq was - yes he needed Kobe to win.

And how could you call Ben Wallace "just" a very good defensive player? 4 Time defensive player of the year?

The logic with Rodman is that yes he could defend all spots - but for our team we didn't need that.

We have GP, Rondo and Dumars defending the perimeter quite well, IMO. And then you add in the mobile and spry KG in his youth and that is IMO the strongest defense out there.

Defense wins championships.

The unfortunate thing with this draft is that I think folks here are under-rating Defense.

Offense fills the seats, but Defense wins the games, and I believe my Defense will get this team deep into any playoff series.

Wallace gets overpowered by top line C with height.


In this league, everyone has one.  He needs to defend PFs to be most effective. 

Ok - Prime Shaq and Hakeem? I can see - to a point.

BUT - Just like our (once upon a time) own Perk, don't forget that Ben Wallace was one of the strongest players ever. His lack of length was offset by his ability to keep players in one spot.

If we are giving Bill Russell a pass on Height, then we must give Ben Wallace a pass, too.

[Redz]

The Portland Trail Blazers select:

Bernard King

Very pleased with my haul today.  I got the top 2 guys on my list despite picking 11th and 14th.  Pistol Pete was #3 on my list.  #4 is still available (though I should probably re-adjust for positional need).

Bernard King was a truly dominant player for a short period.  Like unstoppably dominant.

Happy with Yao too.  He had a couple of almost healthy seasons anyhow   

[wdleehi]

Roy - even with the Shaq's production vs Wallace he is only one man.

As great as Shaq was - yes he needed Kobe to win.

And how could you call Ben Wallace "just" a very good defensive player? 4 Time defensive player of the year?

The logic with Rodman is that yes he could defend all spots - but for our team we didn't need that.

We have GP, Rondo and Dumars defending the perimeter quite well, IMO. And then you add in the mobile and spry KG in his youth and that is IMO the strongest defense out there.

Defense wins championships.

The unfortunate thing with this draft is that I think folks here are under-rating Defense.

Offense fills the seats, but Defense wins the games, and I believe my Defense will get this team deep into any playoff series.

Wallace gets overpowered by top line C with height.


In this league, everyone has one.  He needs to defend PFs to be most effective. 

Ok - Prime Shaq and Hakeem? I can see - to a point.

BUT - Just like our (once upon a time) own Perk, don't forget that Ben Wallace was one of the strongest players ever. His lack of length was offset by his ability to keep players in one spot.

If we are giving Bill Russell a pass on Height, then we must give Ben Wallace a pass, too.

Wallace was the player he was because of his athletic ability.  Remember the Celtics wanted him to be a SF.


When that went, his effectiveness went.  He is still just as strong, but he is no longer faster then everyone. 


I think he works as a defensive specialist at PF/weakside help.

[StartOrien]

The Pacers have too many defensive holes, in my mind.  To me, your team has too many offensive ones (again, relative to the other teams in the league).

Charles Barkley is #31 on the all time defensive-win share list. I don't know what that means, but you probably do.

DEFEND YOURSELF, ROY

It means 30 other players were better than him at defense.

So if I'm reading you right KC, and I don't think there's any other way of interpreting this, Charles Barkley is unquestionably the 31st best defensive player in the history of the NBA?

[33-00-32]

If I had to rank them

East

76ers
Heat
Bulls
Celtics (AI lowered the grade)
Pacers
Hawks



West

Port
Sea
Mem
Mavs
Lakers
Den

AI is a bench guy who will play a team game with talented players around him.

After living in Philly for most of his career, I am never going to buy that.


AI will go in believing he is the man and will cause nothing but distractions till he is in the place he think he belongs. 


AI works when AI is the only offensive threat with a defensive team built around him and an easy playoff path. 

I think if he ever had any decent help you might have seen different. At the first sign of AI acting up his Gtown alum Ewing will put his cornrows in a head lock while Hondo and Clyde beat him senseless, while Timmy keeps telling him over and over, "you better be good, you better be good..." (Timmy's too nice for any beat downs). We're not talking about Clarence Weatherspoon and Jerry Stackhouse here.

So you are saying they will make him quit.  Like he did in Memphis. 


With the amount of talent all these teams have, one overly "me" player kills a team. 


AI is a negative in this type of league.  There are plenty of players that can score with the volume shooting he took that might play a little defense and not be all about "me"

So now Memphis of 09-10 (AI's 14th season) is what you're using to compare to my group of Hall of Famer's??? Sorry but nobody from that team has even come close to being selected for this draft and AI might have had a good point.

Nope.  Just looking at what was suppose to be "mature AI"


If "mature AI" quits, why would I believe in "Immature AI"?

Mature AI had already played 13 seasons where he had to be the only option because his teammates were nothing special. I won't be using his 13th season.
I'll stand by him and watch him light up other teams 2nd units. Besides Sir Charles loves him so that has to count for something

[KCattheStripe]

The Pacers have too many defensive holes, in my mind.  To me, your team has too many offensive ones (again, relative to the other teams in the league).

Charles Barkley is #31 on the all time defensive-win share list. I don't know what that means, but you probably do.

DEFEND YOURSELF, ROY

It means 30 other players were better than him at defense.

So if I'm reading you right KC, and I don't think there's any other way of interpreting this, Charles Barkley is unquestionably the 31st best defensive player in the history of the NBA?

Sure. And you should trust my interpretation, because I know everything there is to know about Metrics.