Author Topic: Doc Rivers is overrated  (Read 11619 times)

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Doc Rivers is overrated
« on: May 12, 2011, 11:32:05 AM »

Offline the TRUTH

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In general, I like Doc Rivers, and think he's done a decent job here. That being said, I'm not at all in the camp that thinks he's the best (or close to the best) coach in the league. Before I go any further, I know there will be some people who immediately point to the title he won here, the 2010 playoff run, etc. I'll be forever grateful for the title in '08, but when it comes down to it, we also had the most talented and hungry team in the league that season. Not every coach in the NBA would have won it all with that team, but a lot of them would have. On the flip side, we've lost to or been taken to the brink by a number of teams that weren't fit to tie our shoes - '05 vs. Indy, '08 vs. ATL/CLE, '09 vs. Chicago. And I honestly still think he should have been able to coach us past Miami this year, even with all the injuries.

I have two main gripes with him. The biggest one is that he is a horrible offensive coach, to be honest. There's an old axiom in coaching that says "you're either coaching it or allowing it to happen." We've been going on miserable scoring droughts for years now, and he hasn't done anything to improve it. It's one thing if we're continually getting good looks each time down, and for whatever reason they're just rimming out. That's natural with fatigue, age, injuries, etc. But how many times do we go 5 or even 8 minutes without getting a single good look? Happens all the time. And it's one thing if it's just happening when the bench is on the floor and/or the new guys are in. But it happens with our stars all the time. How is this possible? You have one of the best point guards in the league and three other future hall of famers, and you can't get a single good shot in 5+ minutes of play? And this happens time and time again, even against mediocre opponents? I'm not just talking about last night. I'm sorry, but that's mostly on the coach. I'm sure someone out there is about to remind me how good we are out of timeouts. Yes, that's impressive, but again, I'd take 5 minutes worth of good shots over one well-drawn up play.

My other main problem with Doc is that he's too much of a "company man" in the NBA. He never wants to ruffle any feathers with the media or the league office. We have gotten flat out hosed by the refs in a number of playoff series since he's been here ('05 vs. the Pacers, '08 vs. Atlanta/Cleveland/LA, '09 vs. Chicago, '10 vs. Cleveland/LA, '11 vs. Miami), yet Doc just sits there and takes it. He never even comes close to causing a ruckus either during games or in the post-game. In '08 we got completely boned by the refs against Atlanta, Cleveland and LA, but we were so good that we still won. We aren't quite at that level anymore, but I still believe we're good enough to win given a semi-even playing field. Unfortunately, the NBA has proven it'll do whatever it can to ensure that its most marketable players advance. As the head coach, you have to fight for your team. IMO, he hasn't done close to enough to ensure that David Stern and his blind followers wouldn't screw us.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't hate Doc, and I'm not advocating that he get fired. Another key part of coaching is creating toughness in your team, and he's done a great job of that. In the playoffs, they always fight their behinds off (in stark contrast to the evil team in purple). At the same time, I don't think he's even close to the best coach in the league. At this point, I'm fine with him leaving or staying.

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2011, 11:33:07 AM »

Online wdleehi

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If he is overrated, he earned the right to be overrated by winning a title.



Just like Phil Jackson earned the right to be overrated by winning 11 titles. 

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 11:34:36 AM »

Online Donoghus

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Arguably the best Celtics coach of the past 30 years. 

I don't think he's over-rated at all. 


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Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 11:35:53 AM »

Offline Eja117

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God forbid the Miami Heat win the title (It'll never happen) will Spoelstra be overrated? 

How about Popovich? 

How about Red?


Who's underrated?  Sloan?    I don't know......

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 11:42:56 AM »

Offline the TRUTH

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As I said in my post, I do commend Doc on winning a title. But like I said, a number of coaches in this league would have won at least one title with this group.

Again, as I said in my post, these 5+ minute periods without a single good look at the basket are inexcusable, and reflect on Doc. A great coach wouldn't let that happen so often.


Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 11:43:36 AM »

Offline coco

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Stregths:
-comunication skills
-plays out of time outs

Wekness:
-minutes management
-substituting the correct player / rotations

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 12:28:28 PM »

Offline jr_3421

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Stregths:
-comunication skills
-plays out of time outs

Wekness:
-minutes management
-substituting the correct player / rotations

I think a strength you and a lot of peopl are forgetting is that players all around the league would love to play for him which bodes well for is in free agency.
"In the 4th quarter I'm whole different player"

-Paul Pierce

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 12:36:39 PM »

Online Roy H.

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It wasn't Doc's best series, or season for that matter.  However, of his expected nine man rotation:

* Shaq was out;
* JO and Delonte were injured, and had a lot of rust from missing most of the season;
* BBD played like garbage, and may have had lingering injury issues;
* Rondo was playing with one arm;
* Green didn't know all of our plays

Doc's deep bench wasn't much better.  Now, I would have liked to see Doc stick with JO more in certain games, and I would have benched BBD more.  Overall, I don't think Doc handled things as well as he could have.  That said, he's not the biggest factor in why we lost.


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Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 12:39:18 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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It wasn't Doc's best series, or season for that matter.  However, of his expected nine man rotation:

* Shaq was out;
* JO and Delonte were injured, and had a lot of rust from missing most of the season;
* BBD played like garbage, and may have had lingering injury issues;
* Rondo was playing with one arm;
* Green didn't know all of our plays

Doc's deep bench wasn't much better.  Now, I would have liked to see Doc stick with JO more in certain games, and I would have benched BBD more.  Overall, I don't think Doc handled things as well as he could have.  That said, he's not the biggest factor in why we lost.
I assume that not sticking with JO was physical. He was playing good for the time he was in, but apparently he has back and wrist injuries. And once your back goes, that doesn't really go away.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 12:50:26 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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His crush on Davis this series was enough for me to say he's got to go. You don't keep putting a guy out there at the wrong position when he's hurting the team. The flow was much better when he had Krystic in there.

 His adjustments are horrible.

Back to wanting Joe fired.

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 12:58:11 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2011, 01:20:50 PM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

I totally agree on this.  Krstic and especially Green seemed like outsiders on the team.  I had to stomach watching a million ISO plays for Davis yet Doc failed to draw up plays or put Green in a position to succeed.

You can harp on Green all you want, but when Doc doesn't get him the ball, or has him camped out by the 3 point line, it's not Green's fault.

My 3 biggest complaints about Doc throughout the years:
1)  When something isn't working well he doesn't change.  Davis in the playoffs, or other matchups in the past, he kept going back to.  Instead of changing things around his motto was "do the same thing, just harder/better." 

2)  Doc always allowed the opposing coach to dictate matchups.  If the other team went big then Doc would try to match.  Same with small-ball.  Never did Doc lead the game with his own matchup and force the opposing coach to adjust. 

3)  Doc didn't always play the more talented players.  Even in Rondo's preseason it was apparent that Rondo was the best PG we had.  Yet how many DNP did Rondo receive b/c Doc insisted on playing Sebastian Telfair?  Too many.  The same went for his playing of Scalabrine over Gomes & Powe.  And in these most recent playoffs, Murphy & Krstic could not have been worse than Davis.. yet he played Davis upwards of 25-30 minutes. 

Doc has improved as a coach, but he is certainly overrated.

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2011, 01:22:46 PM »

Offline barefacedmonk

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Arguably the best Celtics coach of the past 30 years. 

I don't think he's over-rated at all. 

+1
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Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 01:26:23 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

I totally agree on this.  Krstic and especially Green seemed like outsiders on the team.  I had to stomach watching a million ISO plays for Davis yet Doc failed to draw up plays or put Green in a position to succeed.

You can harp on Green all you want, but when Doc doesn't get him the ball, or has him camped out by the 3 point line, it's not Green's fault.

My 3 biggest complaints about Doc throughout the years:
1)  When something isn't working well he doesn't change.  Davis in the playoffs, or other matchups in the past, he kept going back to.  Instead of changing things around his motto was "do the same thing, just harder/better." 

2)  Doc always allowed the opposing coach to dictate matchups.  If the other team went big then Doc would try to match.  Same with small-ball.  Never did Doc lead the game with his own matchup and force the opposing coach to adjust. 

3)  Doc didn't always play the more talented players.  Even in Rondo's preseason it was apparent that Rondo was the best PG we had.  Yet how many DNP did Rondo receive b/c Doc insisted on playing Sebastian Telfair?  Too many.  The same went for his playing of Scalabrine over Gomes & Powe.  And in these most recent playoffs, Murphy & Krstic could not have been worse than Davis.. yet he played Davis upwards of 25-30 minutes. 

Doc has improved as a coach, but he is certainly overrated.
It's funny that you argue both the need to put players in the position to succeed, and giving young players major minutes before they're ready for them. You really can't have it both ways.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Doc Rivers is overrated
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 01:55:26 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

I totally agree on this.  Krstic and especially Green seemed like outsiders on the team.  I had to stomach watching a million ISO plays for Davis yet Doc failed to draw up plays or put Green in a position to succeed.

You can harp on Green all you want, but when Doc doesn't get him the ball, or has him camped out by the 3 point line, it's not Green's fault.

My 3 biggest complaints about Doc throughout the years:
1)  When something isn't working well he doesn't change.  Davis in the playoffs, or other matchups in the past, he kept going back to.  Instead of changing things around his motto was "do the same thing, just harder/better."  

2)  Doc always allowed the opposing coach to dictate matchups.  If the other team went big then Doc would try to match.  Same with small-ball.  Never did Doc lead the game with his own matchup and force the opposing coach to adjust.  

3)  Doc didn't always play the more talented players.  Even in Rondo's preseason it was apparent that Rondo was the best PG we had.  Yet how many DNP did Rondo receive b/c Doc insisted on playing Sebastian Telfair?  Too many.  The same went for his playing of Scalabrine over Gomes & Powe.  And in these most recent playoffs, Murphy & Krstic could not have been worse than Davis.. yet he played Davis upwards of 25-30 minutes.  

Doc has improved as a coach, but he is certainly overrated.
It's funny that you argue both the need to put players in the position to succeed, and giving young players major minutes before they're ready for them. You really can't have it both ways.

How do you know young players aren't ready for major minutes?
Why is it ok to play John Wall, but not Avery Bradley? They both play reckless basketball, and Bradley is actually a better defender

And anyone that says Kristic and Green aren't impact players must have been blind during that Thunder-Lakers series. Lakers said themselves that Green created match-up problems for them