Doc Rivers is overrated

[Celtics18]

As I said in my post, I do commend Doc on winning a title. But like I said, a number of coaches in this league would have won at least one title with this group.

Again, as I said in my post, these 5+ minute periods without a single good look at the basket are inexcusable, and reflect on Doc. A great coach wouldn't let that happen so often.

Tell me about a recent 5+ minute stretch of basketball where the Celtics didn't get a single good look. 

I hope your not referring to the end of game five against the Heat where we had two missed layups, a great look at a three by Ray Allen, and a good post up play by KG where he unfortunately didn't establish quite deep enough position.   

[the TRUTH]

As I said in my post, I do commend Doc on winning a title. But like I said, a number of coaches in this league would have won at least one title with this group.

Again, as I said in my post, these 5+ minute periods without a single good look at the basket are inexcusable, and reflect on Doc. A great coach wouldn't let that happen so often.

Tell me about a recent 5+ minute stretch of basketball where the Celtics didn't get a single good look. 

I hope your not referring to the end of game five against the Heat where we had two missed layups, a great look at a three by Ray Allen, and a good post up play by KG where he unfortunately didn't establish quite deep enough position.   

You're right, Game 5 of the Heat series isn't the best example, and that's why I referred to his entire tenure here in Boston, especially since KG and Killer Ray arrived. Off the top of my head...overtime of game 4, several times during the first two games of the Heat series, at least once in 3 of the games against the Knicks, Game 7 of the finals last year, Game 6 of the finals last year, and about 2,527 other times (in the regular season and the playoffs) that I can't specifically pinpoint off the top of my head. Especially over the past two years. Not sure this is even debatable.

[LB3533]

In truth though, Doc, the coaching staff and our players have always felt that it was all about how we played.

If things weren't going well it was because we were not running our stuff well.

This is why Doc doesn't do adjustments much.

He feels like "it wasn't more of what they did, but what we didn't do" in the game.

The thing is, it may be true...when we are healthy and have a complete roster.

If we are hurt and fatigued, we can't possibly expect us to correct our mistakes....this is when you have to make adjustments.

[MBunge]

The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

I totally agree on this.  Krstic and especially Green seemed like outsiders on the team.  I had to stomach watching a million ISO plays for Davis yet Doc failed to draw up plays or put Green in a position to succeed.

You can harp on Green all you want, but when Doc doesn't get him the ball, or has him camped out by the 3 point line, it's not Green's fault.

My 3 biggest complaints about Doc throughout the years:
1)  When something isn't working well he doesn't change.  Davis in the playoffs, or other matchups in the past, he kept going back to.  Instead of changing things around his motto was "do the same thing, just harder/better." 

2)  Doc always allowed the opposing coach to dictate matchups.  If the other team went big then Doc would try to match.  Same with small-ball.  Never did Doc lead the game with his own matchup and force the opposing coach to adjust. 

3)  Doc didn't always play the more talented players.  Even in Rondo's preseason it was apparent that Rondo was the best PG we had.  Yet how many DNP did Rondo receive b/c Doc insisted on playing Sebastian Telfair?  Too many.  The same went for his playing of Scalabrine over Gomes & Powe.  And in these most recent playoffs, Murphy & Krstic could not have been worse than Davis.. yet he played Davis upwards of 25-30 minutes. 

Doc has improved as a coach, but he is certainly overrated.

It's funny that you argue both the need to put players in the position to succeed, and giving young players major minutes before they're ready for them. You really can't have it both ways.

It's actually the same thing.  Putting players in the position to succeed involves giving them the chance to fail.  If you want a young player to give you 5 good minutes in the playoffs, you have to play him for than 5 mintues a game in the regular season.  And you can't throw a player like Krstic in the dog house for missing a few defensive rotations and then let a player like Baby be a ball-hogging, shot-chucking machine.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

I totally agree on this.  Krstic and especially Green seemed like outsiders on the team.  I had to stomach watching a million ISO plays for Davis yet Doc failed to draw up plays or put Green in a position to succeed.

You can harp on Green all you want, but when Doc doesn't get him the ball, or has him camped out by the 3 point line, it's not Green's fault.

My 3 biggest complaints about Doc throughout the years:
1)  When something isn't working well he doesn't change.  Davis in the playoffs, or other matchups in the past, he kept going back to.  Instead of changing things around his motto was "do the same thing, just harder/better." 

2)  Doc always allowed the opposing coach to dictate matchups.  If the other team went big then Doc would try to match.  Same with small-ball.  Never did Doc lead the game with his own matchup and force the opposing coach to adjust. 

3)  Doc didn't always play the more talented players.  Even in Rondo's preseason it was apparent that Rondo was the best PG we had.  Yet how many DNP did Rondo receive b/c Doc insisted on playing Sebastian Telfair?  Too many.  The same went for his playing of Scalabrine over Gomes & Powe.  And in these most recent playoffs, Murphy & Krstic could not have been worse than Davis.. yet he played Davis upwards of 25-30 minutes. 

Doc has improved as a coach, but he is certainly overrated.

It's funny that you argue both the need to put players in the position to succeed, and giving young players major minutes before they're ready for them. You really can't have it both ways.

It's actually the same thing.  Putting players in the position to succeed involves giving them the chance to fail.  If you want a young player to give you 5 good minutes in the playoffs, you have to play him for than 5 mintues a game in the regular season.  And you can't throw a player like Krstic in the dog house for missing a few defensive rotations and then let a player like Baby be a ball-hogging, shot-chucking machine.

Mike

The way Doc brought Rondo, West, and Perkins along clearly shows that this premise is wrong.

And Krstic wasn't playing because we had better players at his position, and the playoff rotation was shortened.

[MBz]

He has his pros and cons just like every other coach in the league.  I've never been a big Doc supporter, but if we got to see 82 games of Greg Poppovich I'm sure we'd see his flaws more as well.  Doc is a player's coach.  People love playing for him and he gets them hungry to play.  His inbounds plays out of timeouts are great and he knows exactly when which play should be used.  His in-game management is subpar though.  He doesn't make very good adjustments and his rotations are terrible.  I think he plays guys the right amount of minutes, but just at the wrong times.  With all that being said, Doc Rivers didn't have 17 turnovers last night.  He may be part of the problem, but he isn't THE problem.

[Eddie20]

Arguably the best Celtics coach of the past 30 years. 

I don't think he's over-rated at all. 

+1

Is that something to be proud of? That's like saying "Bibby or Shareef is the best player to ever play for the Vancouver Grizzlies". KC Jones, Ford, Rogers, O'Brien, Carr, and Pitino. It's not as if we had Larry Brown, Pop, Daley, or Jackson roaming the sidelines? Besides, Bill Fitch is probably right up there with Doc.

[MBunge]

The thing I hate the most, is that he's giving a bad name to Kristic and Jeff Green. Because he never put them in a position to succeed

I totally agree on this.  Krstic and especially Green seemed like outsiders on the team.  I had to stomach watching a million ISO plays for Davis yet Doc failed to draw up plays or put Green in a position to succeed.

You can harp on Green all you want, but when Doc doesn't get him the ball, or has him camped out by the 3 point line, it's not Green's fault.

My 3 biggest complaints about Doc throughout the years:
1)  When something isn't working well he doesn't change.  Davis in the playoffs, or other matchups in the past, he kept going back to.  Instead of changing things around his motto was "do the same thing, just harder/better." 

2)  Doc always allowed the opposing coach to dictate matchups.  If the other team went big then Doc would try to match.  Same with small-ball.  Never did Doc lead the game with his own matchup and force the opposing coach to adjust. 

3)  Doc didn't always play the more talented players.  Even in Rondo's preseason it was apparent that Rondo was the best PG we had.  Yet how many DNP did Rondo receive b/c Doc insisted on playing Sebastian Telfair?  Too many.  The same went for his playing of Scalabrine over Gomes & Powe.  And in these most recent playoffs, Murphy & Krstic could not have been worse than Davis.. yet he played Davis upwards of 25-30 minutes. 

Doc has improved as a coach, but he is certainly overrated.

It's funny that you argue both the need to put players in the position to succeed, and giving young players major minutes before they're ready for them. You really can't have it both ways.

It's actually the same thing.  Putting players in the position to succeed involves giving them the chance to fail.  If you want a young player to give you 5 good minutes in the playoffs, you have to play him for than 5 mintues a game in the regular season.  And you can't throw a player like Krstic in the dog house for missing a few defensive rotations and then let a player like Baby be a ball-hogging, shot-chucking machine.

Mike

The way Doc brought Rondo, West, and Perkins along clearly shows that this premise is wrong.

And Krstic wasn't playing because we had better players at his position, and the playoff rotation was shortened.

It doesn't show anything of the sort.  The idea that Rondo, West or Perk would have been ruined as players if they'd been handled a different way is silly.  And need I remind you that Ainge bascially had to take away every other option in order to essentially FORCE Doc to play Rondo.

As for Krstic, I don't know what games you have been looking at.  It wasn't a shortened rotation and it wasn't because there were better players ahead of him.  Doc just didn't want to play him.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

It doesn't show anything of the sort.  The idea that Rondo, West or Perk would have been ruined as players if they'd been handled a different way is silly.

And the idea that Rondo, West or Perk were ready to jump into the fray immediately and Doc somehow held the team back by not doing this is equally silly. Probably even more. 

And need I remind you that Ainge bascially had to take away every other option in order to essentially FORCE Doc to play Rondo.

You don't have to remind me anything like that, mostly because it isn't true. Rondo played 23 minutes per game in 78 as a rookie, which is ample playing time. And he wasn't half the player then that he is rigt now.

As for Krstic, I don't know what games you have been looking at.  It wasn't a shortened rotation and it wasn't because there were better players ahead of him.  Doc just didn't want to play him.

I have been looking at the same games as you. The big man rotation included Garnett, O'Neal, Davis and Green, all of which were contributing more than Krstic was at this point (yes, even Davis, who was contributing next to nothing).

[OsirusCeltics]

As for Krstic, I don't know what games you have been looking at.  It wasn't a shortened rotation and it wasn't because there were better players ahead of him.  Doc just didn't want to play him.

I have been looking at the same games as you. The big man rotation included Garnett, O'Neal, Davis and Green, all of which were contributing more than Krstic was at this point (yes, even Davis, who was contributing next to nothing).
[/quote]

Garnett, Big Baby, and Green play power forward. Green plays maybe 4 min in that position

Kristic plays center. The only player that should be ahead of him is JO. Theres no reason to play Big Baby at center over Kristic

[kozlodoev]

As for Krstic, I don't know what games you have been looking at.  It wasn't a shortened rotation and it wasn't because there were better players ahead of him.  Doc just didn't want to play him.

I have been looking at the same games as you. The big man rotation included Garnett, O'Neal, Davis and Green, all of which were contributing more than Krstic was at this point (yes, even Davis, who was contributing next to nothing).

Garnett, Big Baby, and Green play power forward. Green plays maybe 4 min in that position

Kristic plays center. The only player that should be ahead of him is JO. Theres no reason to play Big Baby at center over Kristic

There is: as poor as he was playing, Davis was a better option at that time. Yes, Krstic was giving us _that_ little.

Also: while Davis and Green do play PF, Garnett slides to center.

[MBunge]

As for Krstic, I don't know what games you have been looking at.  It wasn't a shortened rotation and it wasn't because there were better players ahead of him.  Doc just didn't want to play him.

I have been looking at the same games as you. The big man rotation included Garnett, O'Neal, Davis and Green, all of which were contributing more than Krstic was at this point (yes, even Davis, who was contributing next to nothing).

Garnett, Big Baby, and Green play power forward. Green plays maybe 4 min in that position

Kristic plays center. The only player that should be ahead of him is JO. Theres no reason to play Big Baby at center over Kristic

There is: as poor as he was playing, Davis was a better option at that time. Yes, Krstic was giving us _that_ little.
[/quote]

Krstic - 23 minutes a game, 9.1 pts, 5.3 rebs, 53% shooting, PER 14.8
Baby - 29.5 minutes a game, 11.7 pts, 5.4 rebs, 45% shooting, PER 12.8

You are simply wrong.

Mike

[kozlodoev]

Krstic - 23 minutes a game, 9.1 pts, 5.3 rebs, 53% shooting, PER 14.8
Baby - 29.5 minutes a game, 11.7 pts, 5.4 rebs, 45% shooting, PER 12.8

You are simply wrong.

Unlike Krstic, Davis actually understands and is able to execute the team defense. At the very least, he is a significantly more competent.

[MBz]

Krstic - 23 minutes a game, 9.1 pts, 5.3 rebs, 53% shooting, PER 14.8
Baby - 29.5 minutes a game, 11.7 pts, 5.4 rebs, 45% shooting, PER 12.8

You are simply wrong.

Unlike Krstic, Davis actually understands and is able to execute the team defense. At the very least, he is a significantly more competent.

Exactly.  That was the biggest difference between those two guys.  Davis played much better team defense, while Krstic simply didn't play any.

[MBunge]

Krstic - 23 minutes a game, 9.1 pts, 5.3 rebs, 53% shooting, PER 14.8
Baby - 29.5 minutes a game, 11.7 pts, 5.4 rebs, 45% shooting, PER 12.8

You are simply wrong.

Unlike Krstic, Davis actually understands and is able to execute the team defense. At the very least, he is a significantly more competent.

Uh, you've never seen Baby blow a defensive assignment?  You've never seen Baby helpless as a taller player simply shoots over him?  You've never seen Baby's man kill him on the offensive boards?  'Cause I've seen all of those things.

Jeff Green certainly wasn't any better when it came to team defense than Krstic, yet his minutes didn't completely vanish in the playoffs.

And according to the stats, Krstic was +55 in his +/- rating while Baby was +139.  However, Baby played 4 times as many minutes as Krstic did with Boston.  If Krstic simply maintained the same production (which koz derides) and played as many minutes as Baby, Krstic would have a +/- of +220 or so.

Again, you're simply wrong.

Mike