My final thread on the trade

[mctyson]

Danny Ainge has been completely vindicated by the trade? The Celtics are going to lose in the second round to the Miami Heat. Where is the vindication. As for the first round pick -- whenever it finally comes -- it is to be seen what that turns out to be.

As far as Jeff Green goes, S-O-F-T, deer-in-the-headlights, non-aggressive, just happy to be in the league are some of the things that come to mind.

I notice you forgot to mention the other gem we got in the trade, Nenad Krstic.

As I said in an earlier post - yes, absolutely vindicated.  Everyone's initial beef about the trade was "omg howz we gonna stop Pau and Dwight???"  Well, what happened to those guys?  Danny made a gamble that the ultimate team he was going to have to beat this year was the Heat, and he was right that there was no way in hell the C's were beating the Heat without a backup for PP who could defend Lebron.  They got Jeff Green for that, and so far this series he has done a decent job at what they got him for.  He is not giving more because a) he's not good enough (yet) on the defensive boards, and b) Doc does not trust him enough to give him more minutes, which is what is required for offensive production. 

I could care less about Kristic, he was a basically a throw in replacement 5.  I think Doc is being stupid by not getting him in there when the offense is struggling, but Kristic has always been a starter and is not gonna produce offense off the bench.

[dlpin]

Neither of those statements are true

Jeff Green's true shooting percentage this series: 66.1%

Next closest celtic this series: Delonte West, with a true shooting percentage of 61.8%

And what do you base your other assertion on? Perkins' minutes would most likely come at the expense of Jermaine O'neal, not BBD. JO played 28 minutes last night, and could have played more but Doc chose not to.

I love stats like "true shooting perccentage", because they can make it appear that Jeff Green and his 1 rebound in 17 minutes last night is actually adding value to the Celtics.

So I was wrong about Jeff Green being our most efficient scorer in this series because he only grabbed one rebound yesterday?

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Unless you believe Doc would have given Green's minutes to Perkins, that is absolute nonsense. The question is not whether Perkins (a center) would rebound more. The comparison is Perkins vs JO and Green vs Pavlovic.


Not to mention that you are trying to compare Perkins production in 35 minutes while playing against Marc Gasol to Green's production in 17 while playing against Lebron James.

[KCattheStripe]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

[Roy H.]

I'm still pretty shocked that so many fans apparently think the only defensive role of a center is to guard the opposing big man. 

Feel however you want about the trade, but the number of comments downplaying the importance of a defensive center to team defense is staggering to me.

[wdleehi]

Neither of those statements are true

Jeff Green's true shooting percentage this series: 66.1%

Next closest celtic this series: Delonte West, with a true shooting percentage of 61.8%

And what do you base your other assertion on? Perkins' minutes would most likely come at the expense of Jermaine O'neal, not BBD. JO played 28 minutes last night, and could have played more but Doc chose not to.

I love stats like "true shooting perccentage", because they can make it appear that Jeff Green and his 1 rebound in 17 minutes last night is actually adding value to the Celtics.

So I was wrong about Jeff Green being our most efficient scorer in this series because he only grabbed one rebound yesterday?

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Unless you believe Doc would have given Green's minutes to Perkins, that is absolute nonsense. The question is not whether Perkins (a center) would rebound more. The comparison is Perkins vs JO and Green vs Pavlovic.


Not to mention that you are trying to compare Perkins production in 35 minutes while playing against Marc Gasol to Green's production in 17 while playing against Lebron James.

Perk wasn't traded for JO.  If both were here, both would play.  (See history.  Perk and PJ.  Perk and Wallace)


And I am looking at a player that could have helped with one of the Celtics biggest weaknesses last night.  Rebounding.  Celtics were a minus 17 on the boards last night.  


(not to mention would have helped with points in the paint against the Celtics.  Celtics allowed 48)

[wdleehi]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

Perk and JO would both be on the team. 


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear? 

[KCattheStripe]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

Perk and JO would both be on the team. 


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear? 

I meant starter production v. starter production because I figure JO off the bench versus Shaq/Baby tandem would be fairly comparable. And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

[KCattheStripe]

Not to mention that you are trying to compare Perkins production in 35 minutes while playing against Marc Gasol to Green's production in 17 while playing against Lebron James.

This is also true.

[wdleehi]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

Perk and JO would both be on the team. 


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear? 

I meant starter production v. starter production because I figure JO off the bench versus Shaq/Baby tandem would be fairly comparable. And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

JO or Perk off the bench is an upgrade.  Celtics keep size on the floor.


It also makes life easier for Baby.  He was playing his best when the Celtics had size out there.  


Right now, Baby is back in the role of only big man off the bench.  It failed last year in game 7.  It is failing again now.  

[KCattheStripe]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

Perk and JO would both be on the team. 


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear? 

I meant starter production v. starter production because I figure JO off the bench versus Shaq/Baby tandem would be fairly comparable. And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

JO or Perk off the bench is an upgrade.  Celtics keep size on the floor.


It also makes life easier for Baby.  He was playing his best when the Celtics had size out there.  


Right now, Baby is back in the role of only big man off the bench.  It failed last year in game 7.  It is failing again now.  

Is it an upgrade if you only have one player to guard Lebron?

[wdleehi]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

Perk and JO would both be on the team. 


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear? 

I meant starter production v. starter production because I figure JO off the bench versus Shaq/Baby tandem would be fairly comparable. And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

JO or Perk off the bench is an upgrade.  Celtics keep size on the floor.


It also makes life easier for Baby.  He was playing his best when the Celtics had size out there.  


Right now, Baby is back in the role of only big man off the bench.  It failed last year in game 7.  It is failing again now.  

Is it an upgrade if you only have one player to guard Lebron?

Since Green only did a good job once in this series, yes.


I would rather a lesser F (who maybe could shoot from the outside to stretch the floor) and be stronger inside (thus making it more likely Lebron and Wade shoot more jumpers versus layups)

[Roy H.]

And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

I wasn't directing anything at you specifically, KC.  It's an argument I've seen repeated dozens of times.  "Howard and Bynum are out of the playoffs, so Perk wouldn't have been valuable".  I think that's nonsense. 

Perk played a big role in defending the paint against penetration.  You rightfully point out JO as somebody who does the same thing.  However, if we'd still had Perk, we could have 48 minutes of strong center play, rather than around 30.  Controlling the paint from Lebron and Wade is one of the keys to this series, and we're losing that battle so far.

Regarding the trade itself, I'm pretty worn out from the debate, and don't want to get into it.  I understand that people worry about Perk's current physical condition, and they're skeptical that whatever replacement SF we signed could have matched Green's contributions.  There's no real way to prove anything. 

However, from my point of view, this playoff series didn't do anything to vindicate Danny Ainge.  Green hasn't made a huge impact, and we've struggled at times defending the paint and rebounding.  Between the play on the court, the chemistry issues (at least during the regular season), and our mini-collapse in the standings (where we blew something like a 7 game lead to the Heat, surrendering home court), it's not a trade that I'd personally choose to write home about.

[stylo617617]

And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

I wasn't directing anything at you specifically, KC.  It's an argument I've seen repeated dozens of times.  "Howard and Bynum are out of the playoffs, so Perk wouldn't have been valuable".  I think that's nonsense. 

Perk played a big role in defending the paint against penetration.  You rightfully point out JO as somebody who does the same thing.  However, if we'd still had Perk, we could have 48 minutes of strong center play, rather than around 30.  Controlling the paint from Lebron and Wade is one of the keys to this series, and we're losing that battle so far.

pretty much on target here ... last night perk wouldve played in the 4th qtr the majority of the time instead of going small playing into miami's hands were a team that closes games with stops not scores perk wouldve helped us get stops

[dlpin]

I'm still pretty shocked that so many fans apparently think the only defensive role of a center is to guard the opposing big man. 

Feel however you want about the trade, but the number of comments downplaying the importance of a defensive center to team defense is staggering to me.

It is not the only defensive role. But it is a pretty big one. It doesn't matter how good of a help defender a center is is he can't guard his assignment at all.

Perk and JO would both be on the team.  


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear?  

Would Doc play both of them at the same time? If so, who would guard Lebron at the 4, where he played half the game yesterday?

[KCattheStripe]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.  

Doesn't matter if he would have grabbed more boards than Jeff Green, it matters whether or not he would have grabbed more boards than JO ( The way KG and Paul hit the boards my guess would be no) just like I wouldn't ask Perkins to D-Up LeBron. Perk wouldn't have anyone to guard this series-- and I'm not confident he could, given how Marc and Zach are goin' off-- and would have been less effective than JO on O and comparable on the glass. Meanwhile if we had kept Perk, we'd have no one to back up Paul.

Perk and JO would both be on the team. 


Can someone explain to me how if Perk was here, JO would be gone?  I don't get it.  Is there another trade that would have made him disappear? 

I meant starter production v. starter production because I figure JO off the bench versus Shaq/Baby tandem would be fairly comparable. And to Roy, I'm not suggesting that a center's only role is to guard the opposing big man, I just see Perk's defensive abilities as tremendously diminished at this point-- especially how he used to switch on picks and man up on drivers-- and think that you're getting similar production from JO and actually have a back up for Paul which you wouldn't have had.

JO or Perk off the bench is an upgrade.  Celtics keep size on the floor.


It also makes life easier for Baby.  He was playing his best when the Celtics had size out there.  


Right now, Baby is back in the role of only big man off the bench.  It failed last year in game 7.  It is failing again now.  

Is it an upgrade if you only have one player to guard Lebron?

Since Green only did a good job once in this series, yes.


I would rather a lesser F (who maybe could shoot from the outside to stretch the floor) and be stronger inside (thus making it more likely Lebron and Wade shoot more jumpers versus layups)

A) The way LeBron and Wade have shot from this series them shooting jumpers is still deadly.
B) Where was this other forward? What other options did we have to find a guy who could guard Lebron for even a game? Was there a Marquis or Posey out there to be had?

My point is that without someone to spell Paul there was no way the Cs get through LeBron, Deng and whatever 3 comes outta the west-- Battier/TA and Marion would make him work on O and Durant would be murder on D-- and Danny knew it because he saw it last year. He gambled that the other bigs would provide Perkins like production and keep them in the series, it's not like the Cs were never out rebounded with Perkins, whereas they'd have no chance if a gassed Pierce would have to guard Lebron and be the primary scoring option for the team.