My final thread on the trade

[quidinqui33]

We don't even need to argue Murphy vs Davis. Jermaine O'neal is healthy, 2nd on the team in rebounds per minute, first in blocks by a very wide margin, and is only getting 22 minutes a game.

If Doc wanted to, he could go big for much longer. Whether or not that is the best option is beside the point. The fact is that Doc HAS that option, and if he chooses not to use it, it is on him, not the trade.

For me, it was not the trade of specifically Perk that did us in, but it was the fact that Danny traded away half of the team during the mid-season.

Of course, the injuries to Perk, Quis, and Nate probably forced Danny's hand to do something as well as off season financial reasons, but the Gody and Erdin trade to sign Murphy was a total failure no matter how you slice it.

This team was tight.  The chemistry of our bench cannot be understated.  Nate, as frustrating as he can be, was an awesome guy to have on the bench and brought it a spirit and an energy.  Sure, Gody and Semih were rookies and would not have played in the playoffs, but they were the celtic's rookies and having them warming the benches right now would have meant a lot more to them and to the team rather then having a bunch of players other teams didn't want.  The fact that three of the new guys have english as a second language probably affects comrodery on the bench as well (I don't mean that in a mean way, but it is true since they are new and language barriers can be an issue when trying build relationships in a short amount of time).  We used to have a bench that was fired up at all times, playing or not.  

We no longer have that and it does matter to the guys on the court.

We can still win this series.  Regardless, for this season, the trades (not just perk but everyone of them) made us a worse team than we were before the deadline.  

I am sorry, but unless "chemistry" is fast and big enough to defend Lebron hitting fade away 3s, that is not the reason we are losing.

If this team needs two rookies for "chemistry" to win a series, or if the team is affected by the fact that 3 of the players not being native English speakers (though they have lived here for long and are very fluent), then this team was doomed from the start.

Not specifically the two rookies, but I think the trade started a domino affect of hurting our chemistry (Rondo big time), which affected our play down the stretch, had Doc guessing on what the best rotations were, and now we are trying to make it all work in the playoffs.  

Definitely not chemistry alone, but I think the bad chemistry has been a larger issue as a result of a trade more so than us missing a specific player's (perks) play on the court.

With that said, injuries (age) is what is really hurting right now.  Healthy Shaq and Rondo and we probably beat the heat in 5. Seems to be our curse as celtics fans over the past 20+ years to deal with stuff like this...larry's back, len bias, reggie, kg's knee, shaq, and rondo's elbow.

[angryguy77]

It is not misplaced loyalty.  I think Doc would LOVE to get Davis out of there.  The problem is, when Murphy played this season, he made Mikki Moore look like KG defensively, couldn't grab rebounds, and couldn't even knock down the shots that made him a valuable player in this league.

Every second Murphy was on the floor, the one thing I saw was a guy who was completely cooked.  And, Doc can't completely ignore that evidence to put him out there, no matter how poorly Davis was playing (and while he hasn't been great, Davis was at least passable).

The misplaced loyalty to me isn't Davis vs Murphy, but Davis vs JO and Green. JO could easily play another 5 minutes at the 5, and Green could easily play another 5 minutes at the 4, and Davis would be reduced to 10 minutes a game.

I only mentioned Murphy to illustrate that Doc had other options. If he was determined to keep JO off the floor, then he should have explored another avenue. Davis hurt the team when he was playing center, I can't see it getting worse if he had put someone else in.

[blackberry33]

bbd and injuries cost us this series. Jeff Green is a future Celtic

[mctyson]

If Doc wanted to, he could go big for much longer. Whether or not that is the best option is beside the point. The fact is that Doc HAS that option, and if he chooses not to use it, it is on him, not the trade.

You are exactly right.  And this is what miffs me about the Danny/Jeff Green haters out there.  Exactly what does Perkins give that JO does not?  I'd argue that JO is twice the player, because he has played good defense, rebounded well, and is 100-times better offensively than Perkins (which admittedly is not saying much.)  If you want to keep crying about the trade, then admit that Perkins would be eating up JO's minutes, not BBD's - we would not be seing any JO-Perkins 4-5 combos against the Heat.

Doc has the players to go "big."  Last night, JO was on the bench for the 4th quarter and overtime.  That was Doc's choice.

The clear issue is that BBD is produced nothing off the bench last night.  If he is gonna do that, Doc might as well play Jeff Green more since he is more versatile.  But it is a trust issue; Doc trusts BBD over Green for obvious reasons.  At the very least, get Green in the game more at the 4 to spell KG who was decimated on the offensive side last night.

[blackberry33]

If you want to complain about JG's stat line, why don't you post some of Perks?

Do they keep a count for cheerleading on the sidelines?

tp

[mctyson]

Perhaps if the C's big men were more talented at scoring in the post, Doc would have considered taking that risk and punishing them down low, but unfortunately, the Heat were able to force his hand.

This is the problem when you are facing a team that has a 6'9" 280lb guy who is quicker than nearly every guard on your team, let alone big man.  If the other team puts that guy at PF, it is really difficult not to be forced into matching them, since he can handle just about anyone in the post defensively, and he cannot be covered by a big man.

And this was the rationale for the Green trade.  Danny "knew" that the Celtics were going to face Miami at some point, either Round 2 or EC Finals.  

I don't remember the lineups but would love for someone to post what Miami did throughout 4th quarter last night, in terms of rotations.  I still don't know why JO didn't play.

[Who]

Perhaps if the C's big men were more talented at scoring in the post, Doc would have considered taking that risk and punishing them down low, but unfortunately, the Heat were able to force his hand.

This is the problem when you are facing a team that has a 6'9" 280lb guy who is quicker than nearly every guard on your team, let alone big man.  If the other team puts that guy at PF, it is really difficult not to be forced into matching them, since he can handle just about anyone in the post defensively, and he cannot be covered by a big man.

And this was the rationale for the Green trade.  Danny "knew" that the Celtics were going to face Miami at some point, either Round 2 or EC Finals. 

I don't remember the lineups but would love for someone to post what Miami did throughout 4th quarter last night, in terms of rotations.  I still don't know why JO didn't play.

Miami played the final 7 minutes of the fourth and overtime with Mario Chalmers, D-Wade, James Jones, LeBron and Bosh. Except for the last play of the fourth when they brought J.Anthony in for Bosh for a defensive possession.

The Celtics used Rondo, Delonte, Ray, Pierce and Garnett for the final 8 minutes of the fourth. Played the first minute or so of the overtime period with that lineup + then benched Rondo to begin the overtime period for Jeff Green for the next two minutes + then brought Rondo back for Green.

So the lineups were pretty much a constant throughout the final 7-8 minutes of the fourth + overtime.

------------------------------------------

Earlier in the fourth

Boston used a power lineup for the first minute. Delonte, Pierce, Green, BBD and Jermaine. This was the lineup they also used for the final few minutes of the third quarter. Then Boston swapped out Pierce for Ray. Then brought Rondo in for BBD to settle on a small ball lineup at the two minute mark in the quarter.

As for Miami, they started the quarter with the same lineup as above except they had Mike Miller on the court instead of Wade. Then subbed Miller for LeBron. Decided to go with J.Anthony (two bigs) for about 40 seconds but quickly changed their mind and stayed with their small ball lineup.

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20110509&game=MIABOS

[DinoRadjaLives]

I dont see Dwight Howard coming here. The reason has nothing to do with basketball or if Rondo is his pg or who ever else in on the team. This is about endorsments and money. They two biggest markets for that is LA and NYC. Heck it is rumored that Shaq hasn't even touched his NBA money and lives of his endorsement deals. If he wanted to win championships he would go to OKC where the core of  Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Perk and Harden are young and capable.

[KCattheStripe]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

[blackberry33]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

100% agreed

[vinnie]

Maybe the Celts would still be down 3-1 even if they had Perk, but the bottom line is the trade was not a good one. The Celts got back nothing to help them in this trade. When we look at it in the future, that will be the conclusion. The Celts got nothing for Perk.

This statment makes no sense.  First and foremost, the Celtics got a 1st round draft pick for Perkins, so right off the bat your comment "The Celts got nothing for Perk" is factually wrong.

Second - Jeff Green has been a valuable addition to this team.  His defense on James in Game 3 was top notch and he did another decent job against him last night when Lebron was at the top of his game.  I'd note that Lebron scored 20 in the first quarter, mostly against Pierce.  There is no one else on the team right now who can provide what Green provides off the bench. The problem is that this team is so desperate for offense right now that there are no minutes for Greeen because Pierce has to be on the floor as much as possible, and they need KG's defense and rebounding.  I liked the lineup last night with KG at the 5, JG at the 4, Pierce at the 3, Ray at the 2 and D-West at 1...that's the best offensive lineup they can put out on the court.  Rondo at less than 90% health is an offensive liability.

Follwing that point, Green is only 24 years old, a 6'10" 3/4 combo with range and - as we are seeing - defensive ability.  He needs to be tougher on the boards.  He also needs to PLAY MORE.  We simply haven't seen enough of what he can do.  That will happen next year, and by that time Danny can determine if he wants to resign him or trade his expiring contract.

Finally - I want all the Perkins lovers to remember that he is now a 4-year @ $9 million per player who last time gave OKC 4 pts and 8 boards, with -10 +/-, in 35 min of a 3-Overtime critical playoff game.  He is arguably the worst offensive 5 in the league and has terrible hands. He's an average rebounder and above-average to good defensive player.  I'd take Zaza Pachulia for half the price over Perk any day.

Danny Ainge has been completely vindicated by the trade.  He made a calculated gamble that Orlando was nothing to worry about and that the Lakers wouldn't make it out of the West.  He was right on both accounts.  He traded for JG because he knew that to get to the EC Finals, the Celtics would have to go through Lebron James and Dwayne Wade, and he needed another perimeter player to deal with them.  I am so glad that he is the GM of my team because of this type of move.

Danny Ainge has been completely vindicated by the trade? The Celtics are going to lose in the second round to the Miami Heat. Where is the vindication. As for the first round pick -- whenever it finally comes -- it is to be seen what that turns out to be.

As far as Jeff Green goes, S-O-F-T, deer-in-the-headlights, non-aggressive, just happy to be in the league are some of the things that come to mind.

I notice you forgot to mention the other gem we got in the trade, Nenad Krstic.

[vinnie]

Neither of those statements are true

Jeff Green's true shooting percentage this series: 66.1%

Next closest celtic this series: Delonte West, with a true shooting percentage of 61.8%

And what do you base your other assertion on? Perkins' minutes would most likely come at the expense of Jermaine O'neal, not BBD. JO played 28 minutes last night, and could have played more but Doc chose not to.

I love stats like "true shooting perccentage", because they can make it appear that Jeff Green and his 1 rebound in 17 minutes last night is actually adding value to the Celtics.

[vinnie]

If you want to complain about JG's stat line, why don't you post some of Perks?

Do they keep a count for cheerleading on the sidelines?

tp

Yeah -- TP for the guy who went #5 in the draft and who grabbed a big rebound in 17 minutes last night and has had about 15 minutes of decent play in the playoffs. Can't wait to build a team around the softest, no-charisma player I have ever seen play the game.

[mctyson]

Miami played the final 7 minutes of the fourth and overtime with Mario Chalmers, D-Wade, James Jones, LeBron and Bosh. Except for the last play of the fourth when they brought J.Anthony in for Bosh for a defensive possession.

The Celtics used Rondo, Delonte, Ray, Pierce and Garnett for the final 8 minutes of the fourth. Played the first minute or so of the overtime period with that lineup + then benched Rondo to begin the overtime period for Jeff Green for the next two minutes + then brought Rondo back for Green.

That basically is the lineup Doc should use to counter the lineup the Heat had on the floor; Can't have JO on the floor there and have KG on either James or Jones, that would be a nightmare.  The only other change you could make there is Green for Delonte to go "big", but Delonte played great last night so I can't complain about that.  Doc did wind up sort of following that idea with Green-for-Rondo but that was because Rondo was struggling offensively at that point - can't blame him for that he was toughing out the injury, but you could blame Doc for maybe not trying that in the 4th quarter when the Celtics really struggled on offense.

Earlier in the fourth

Boston used a power lineup for the first minute. Delonte, Pierce, Green, BBD and Jermaine. This was the lineup they also used for the final few minutes of the third quarter. Then Boston swapped out Pierce for Ray. Then brought Rondo in for BBD to settle on a small ball lineup at the two minute mark in the quarter.

As for Miami, they started the quarter with the same lineup as above except they had Mike Miller on the court instead of Wade. Then subbed Miller for LeBron. Decided to go with J.Anthony (two bigs) for about 40 seconds but quickly changed their mind and stayed with their small ball lineup.

If you make the trade for Jeff Green because he can defend Lebron at the 3 or 4, you have to be extremely comfortable with him on Mike Miller or James Jones.  In my opinion - and I am sure I'm in the minority here - Green should have gotten more minutes in the 4th with no option to put JO on the floor.  The C's desperately needed some kind of post scoring and Green had already taken Miller on the post a couple times.  Rondo should have subbed for Delonte or vice versa, with Ray, Pierce, Green, and Garnett (basically the overtime lineup after the first 2 minutes).

When the C's are a jump shooting team only, their offense sucks.  When Rondo is penetrating or, as we learned in Game 3, when the C's get post offense, they are hard to stop.  Garnett was not getting them this in Game 4, BBD was giving nothing on both ends, and Rondo was either gassed or in a lot of pain in the 4th quarter.  So the only interior offense options are JO or Jeff Green, and JO was on the bench because of the matchups.  You HAVE to kepp Green in for longer and get him the ball in the post against Miller or James Jones if the Heat are going to play that lineup.  If you can't trust him to convert or make the skip pass, then Miami should play that lineup all day and wait for C's to keep bricking contested jumpers.

[wdleehi]

Kendrick Perkins is getting eaten alive in the Memphis series while not scoring, he would not help the Celtics in this series.

I would imagine he would grab more then the one rebound that the two guys he was traded for gathered last night.


A night where the Celtics were killed on the boards.  


And those three more points Green got in a game then Perk, huge.




I couldn't help but notice Green was on the bench during crunch time by coaches decision vs. Perk who fouled out playing into the 3 OT.