My final thread on the trade

[Chris]

If the celtics play their best when they play big, then that is on Doc. Because we have a big that is healthy and playing well, and if he isn't getting more minutes (only 22 a night) that is on Doc.

"hey, our coach is too stubborn to play our best line up because he doesn't trust the center we have, so we should make moves to placate his stubborness" doesn't strike me as a legitimate argument.

I agree.  Doc made a conscious decision to go small the last few games, and it had nothing to do with not having Shaq.  He felt that they couldn't have big men chasing around James Jones (and losing him) on the perimeter.  

Perhaps if the C's big men were more talented at scoring in the post, Doc would have considered taking that risk and punishing them down low, but unfortunately, the Heat were able to force his hand.

This is the problem when you are facing a team that has a 6'9" 280lb guy who is quicker than nearly every guard on your team, let alone big man.  If the other team puts that guy at PF, it is really difficult not to be forced into matching them, since he can handle just about anyone in the post defensively, and he cannot be covered by a big man.

[angryguy77]

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[Chris]

Show me where I mention another trade option? 

This season was about this season.  The moves in the offseason was about this season.  The moves in season should have been about this season. 

The Celtics play their best when they play big. 


Celtics traded away one of the bigs in the hope that two other bigs will be healthy in the playoffs.  They got one.


And how is Green rebounding like a PG helping this team?  And I saw one game where he played some decent to good defense on Lebron. 

If the celtics play their best when they play big, then that is on Doc. Because we have a big that is healthy and playing well, and if he isn't getting more minutes (only 22 a night) that is on Doc.

"hey, our coach is too stubborn to play our best line up because he doesn't trust the center we have, so we should make moves to placate his stubborness" doesn't strike me as a legitimate argument.

Giving him more bigs he trust allows him to play big.


If Shaq was healthy, the Celtics would have played big more.


If Perk was here, the Celtics would have played big more.  

So, who covers Lebron, Wade, Chalmers, or James Jones when all of those guys are on the floor together, and the C's go "Big"?

We saw what happens in game 1 and 2 when James Jones is being covered by a big man.  Either Jones is left wide open for 3's (which he doesn't miss), or, there is not proper help inside for the drives.

[angryguy77]

Show me where I mention another trade option? 

This season was about this season.  The moves in the offseason was about this season.  The moves in season should have been about this season. 

The Celtics play their best when they play big. 


Celtics traded away one of the bigs in the hope that two other bigs will be healthy in the playoffs.  They got one.


And how is Green rebounding like a PG helping this team?  And I saw one game where he played some decent to good defense on Lebron. 

If the celtics play their best when they play big, then that is on Doc. Because we have a big that is healthy and playing well, and if he isn't getting more minutes (only 22 a night) that is on Doc.

"hey, our coach is too stubborn to play our best line up because he doesn't trust the center we have, so we should make moves to placate his stubborness" doesn't strike me as a legitimate argument.

Giving him more bigs he trust allows him to play big.


If Shaq was healthy, the Celtics would have played big more.


If Perk was here, the Celtics would have played big more.  

He had other bigs on the bench. It would have been worth giving them a shot after he saw Davis get abused in the first 2 games. Can anyone really say that Murphy would have been worse than Davis?

[dlpin]

You have to take TS% with a huge grain of salt. It doesn't really translate across positions and doesn't account for the kinds of shots that are available to different players--Green and D West are getting way more open looks than, say, Pierce is.

But that is the point. You keep going to your most efficient guys until the opponent is forced to adjust and not leave them open anymore.

Giving him more bigs he trust allows him to play big.


If Shaq was healthy, the Celtics would have played big more.


If Perk was here, the Celtics would have played big more.  

There is no knowing if he would have played big more. He could have played big more as it is, and chose not to. All Ainge can do is give Doc the pieces he needs to the team. Doc has the option of playing big for at least another 10 minutes a game (JO is playing 22 a game and I am sure he could play at least 32 if needed).

In the period we had Shaq+Perkins, Perkins+Erden, or even Shaq+Perkins+Erden (or earlier in the season when we had Shaq+JO+Erden), Davis still got his 25 minutes a night (with the exception of the suns blowout). Which to me is a pretty solid indication that Perkins on this team would mostly take away JO's minutes, not Davis'.


But, again, that is all ultimately on Doc, not Ainge or the trade. He could have gone big yesterday for much longer periods of time if he chose to, and he simply did not choose to.

[Chris]

Can anyone really say that Murphy would have been worse than Davis?

Yeah, I can. 

[bbd24]

This series isn't over by any stretch of the imagination.  The C's can win 3 straight on anybody, anytime.  With or without Perkins.

Don't use a great trade (in your favor) as an excuse.  Especially when Perks only 65%, Shaq is like 25%, and the rest of the roster has been beat up left and right. You can't gamble on Perk giving you minutes with the shape he's in. Flat out, KG got outplayed by Bosh last night and Ray's defense has been non existent vs Wade & Co (easy paths to the rim) since the beginning.  JO has been great.

My boy BBD can't rebound, can't defend, hasn't been able to use his big frame to his advantage, and hasn't been able to hit a shot since mid season maybe ?

Thats not cutting it.  The only thing that he can cut into right now is spaghetti and waffles.  He needs to wake up soon or game 6 could be his last in beantown.

[bbd24]

Show me where I mention another trade option? 

This season was about this season.  The moves in the offseason was about this season.  The moves in season should have been about this season. 

The Celtics play their best when they play big. 


Celtics traded away one of the bigs in the hope that two other bigs will be healthy in the playoffs.  They got one.


And how is Green rebounding like a PG helping this team?  And I saw one game where he played some decent to good defense on Lebron. 

If the celtics play their best when they play big, then that is on Doc. Because we have a big that is healthy and playing well, and if he isn't getting more minutes (only 22 a night) that is on Doc.

"hey, our coach is too stubborn to play our best line up because he doesn't trust the center we have, so we should make moves to placate his stubborness" doesn't strike me as a legitimate argument.

Giving him more bigs he trust allows him to play big.


If Shaq was healthy, the Celtics would have played big more.


If Perk was here, the Celtics would have played big more.  

So, who covers Lebron, Wade, Chalmers, or James Jones when all of those guys are on the floor together, and the C's go "Big"?

We saw what happens in game 1 and 2 when James Jones is being covered by a big man.  Either Jones is left wide open for 3's (which he doesn't miss), or, there is not proper help inside for the drives.

Sasha covers them and Perk is out in 3 minutes with 3 quick fouls trying to help off his man to stop Wade and Bron's drives.

[quidinqui33]

For me, it was not the trade of specifically Perk that did us in, but it was the fact that Danny traded away half of the team during the mid-season.

Of course, the injuries to Perk, Quis, and Nate probably forced Danny's hand to do something as well as off season financial reasons, but the Gody and Erdin trade to sign Murphy was a total failure no matter how you slice it.

This team was tight.  The chemistry of our bench cannot be understated.  Nate, as frustrating as he can be, was an awesome guy to have on the bench and brought it a spirit and an energy.  Sure, Gody and Semih were rookies and would not have played in the playoffs, but they were the celtic's rookies and having them warming the benches right now would have meant a lot more to them and to the team rather then having a bunch of players other teams didn't want.  The fact that three of the new guys have english as a second language probably affects comrodery on the bench as well (I don't mean that in a mean way, but it is true since they are new and language barriers can be an issue when trying build relationships in a short amount of time).  We used to have a bench that was fired up at all times, playing or not. 

We no longer have that and it does matter to the guys on the court.

We can still win this series.  Regardless, for this season, the trades (not just perk but everyone of them) made us a worse team than we were before the deadline. 

[angryguy77]

Can anyone really say that Murphy would have been worse than Davis?

Yeah, I can. 

I'm not trying to pick on the kid that much, but I believe Murphy's length would have given us more than what Davis contributed this series.

Problem is, we won't know for sure because of Doc's misplaced loyalty.

[Chris]

This series isn't over by any stretch of the imagination.  The C's can win 3 straight on anybody, anytime.  With or without Perkins.

Don't use a great trade (in your favor) as an excuse.  Especially when Perks only 65%, Shaq is like 25%, and the rest of the roster has been beat up left and right. You can't gamble on Perk giving you minutes with the shape he's in. Flat out, KG got outplayed by Bosh last night and Ray's defense has been non existent vs Wade & Co (easy paths to the rim) since the beginning.  JO has been great.

My boy BBD can't rebound, can't defend, hasn't been able to use his big frame to his advantage, and hasn't been able to hit a shot since mid season maybe ?

Thats not cutting it.  The only thing that he can cut into right now is spaghetti and waffles.  He needs to wake up soon or game 6 could be his last in beantown.

I hope you're right.  I just wonder if these guys are going to have enough left in their legs to carry the offense over 3 more games like this.  

I think the C's played great defense last night, but if KG and Ray can't get their shots over the front rim, they just can't win these games.  

This is exactly what happened in game 7 last year.  Everyone points to the rebounds and bad calls, but what really killed the C's is that what got them to that point, their ability to knock down shots, disappeared.

My one hope for this series is that the bench can step it up enough on the offensive end to take some of the pressure off the starters, and even carry them to a win or two.  If that happens, then I think they have a chance.  But if it is coming down to a battle of their big 3 versus our big 4, I just don't think the C's legs are going to hold up.

[dlpin]

We don't even need to argue Murphy vs Davis. Jermaine O'neal is healthy, 2nd on the team in rebounds per minute, first in blocks by a very wide margin, and is only getting 22 minutes a game.

If Doc wanted to, he could go big for much longer. Whether or not that is the best option is beside the point. The fact is that Doc HAS that option, and if he chooses not to use it, it is on him, not the trade.

For me, it was not the trade of specifically Perk that did us in, but it was the fact that Danny traded away half of the team during the mid-season.

Of course, the injuries to Perk, Quis, and Nate probably forced Danny's hand to do something as well as off season financial reasons, but the Gody and Erdin trade to sign Murphy was a total failure no matter how you slice it.

This team was tight.  The chemistry of our bench cannot be understated.  Nate, as frustrating as he can be, was an awesome guy to have on the bench and brought it a spirit and an energy.  Sure, Gody and Semih were rookies and would not have played in the playoffs, but they were the celtic's rookies and having them warming the benches right now would have meant a lot more to them and to the team rather then having a bunch of players other teams didn't want.  The fact that three of the new guys have english as a second language probably affects comrodery on the bench as well (I don't mean that in a mean way, but it is true since they are new and language barriers can be an issue when trying build relationships in a short amount of time).  We used to have a bench that was fired up at all times, playing or not.  

We no longer have that and it does matter to the guys on the court.

We can still win this series.  Regardless, for this season, the trades (not just perk but everyone of them) made us a worse team than we were before the deadline.  

I am sorry, but unless "chemistry" is fast and big enough to defend Lebron hitting fade away 3s, that is not the reason we are losing.

If this team needs two rookies for "chemistry" to win a series, or if the team is affected by the fact that 3 of the players not being native English speakers (though they have lived here for long and are very fluent), then this team was doomed from the start.

[Chris]

Can anyone really say that Murphy would have been worse than Davis?

Yeah, I can. 

I'm not trying to pick on the kid that much, but I believe Murphy's length would have given us more than what Davis contributed this series.

Problem is, we won't know for sure because of Doc's misplaced loyalty.

It is not misplaced loyalty.  I think Doc would LOVE to get Davis out of there.  The problem is, when Murphy played this season, he made Mikki Moore look like KG defensively, couldn't grab rebounds, and couldn't even knock down the shots that made him a valuable player in this league.

Every second Murphy was on the floor, the one thing I saw was a guy who was completely cooked.  And, Doc can't completely ignore that evidence to put him out there, no matter how poorly Davis was playing (and while he hasn't been great, Davis was at least passable).

[dlpin]

It is not misplaced loyalty.  I think Doc would LOVE to get Davis out of there.  The problem is, when Murphy played this season, he made Mikki Moore look like KG defensively, couldn't grab rebounds, and couldn't even knock down the shots that made him a valuable player in this league.

Every second Murphy was on the floor, the one thing I saw was a guy who was completely cooked.  And, Doc can't completely ignore that evidence to put him out there, no matter how poorly Davis was playing (and while he hasn't been great, Davis was at least passable).

The misplaced loyalty to me isn't Davis vs Murphy, but Davis vs JO and Green. JO could easily play another 5 minutes at the 5, and Green could easily play another 5 minutes at the 4, and Davis would be reduced to 10 minutes a game.

[angryguy77]

Can anyone really say that Murphy would have been worse than Davis?

Yeah, I can. 

I'm not trying to pick on the kid that much, but I believe Murphy's length would have given us more than what Davis contributed this series.

Problem is, we won't know for sure because of Doc's misplaced loyalty.

It is not misplaced loyalty.  I think Doc would LOVE to get Davis out of there.  The problem is, when Murphy played this season, he made Mikki Moore look like KG defensively, couldn't grab rebounds, and couldn't even knock down the shots that made him a valuable player in this league.

Every second Murphy was on the floor, the one thing I saw was a guy who was completely cooked.  And, Doc can't completely ignore that evidence to put him out there, no matter how poorly Davis was playing (and while he hasn't been great, Davis was at least passable).

Then he should have played JO big minutes, because Davis contributed 0.