The trade has killed this team

[Vermont Green]

In terms of KG's comments, it is hard to really take them too much to heart when we were 34-9 without Perk.  We managed to have chemistry and a physical presence then so how could it be that now we can't "play tough" without Perk?  KG is saying what he feels but he is a player and an emotional one at that, not a coach or GM.  I am not sure "disregard" is the right word, but I am certainly not accepting KG's comments as gospel.

First, does it matter if the fans believe KG's words, if KG believes them?  He's the one on the court, and if he feels the team is less physical, and that Perk's presence is missed, shouldn't his actual feelings mean more than the theoretical arguments of fans (or even the arguments of Danny)?

Second, it's important to remember that Perk might not have been playing games, but he was still on the team.  He was working hard, he was leading by example, he was cheering on the guys at practice.  The team was keeping his spot warm for him; he might have not been playing on the court, but he was there psychologically.  Trading him was unquestionably an emotional hit, and sometimes those emotions translate negatively on the court.

re First: I think it is important for players to be emotional and have heart but just the opposite for coaches and GM's.  If KG believes this and it is affecting his game, then it is the coach's job work that out.  That really has nothing to do with the accuracy.  So the team is not playing tough because it believes it can't play tough without Perk even though it did play tough without Perk in the line up for several months?  That sounds like something a good coach should be able to fix but doesn't mean that the team can't play the way it needs to (at least when/if Shaq is back).

re Second:  Yeah, I get the whole motivational warrior thing but I don't buy that Perk would have that affect on a veteran team much less this particular team.  If that is the problem, again the coach should fix it.  This team should be able to play to their full potential whether Perk is on the bench or not.  I think the gap right now is Shaq.  We have a back-up quality center playing as a starter.  Earlier in the year, Erden started some games so this is actually an upgrade from that but not an upgrade from Shaq or Perk.

As I said above, if Shaq doesn't come back, this trade looks bad for Danny and I will join you in criticizing him.  If Shaq does come back, the only difference between the 34-9 team and now will be Perk's motivational impact vs. upgrades at back up center (Krstic vs. Erden) and back up SF (Green vs. Daniels).

If at that point, if KG or anyone else comes out and says we are not playing to our full potential because Perk isn't here to motivate us, I will call an offensive foul.

[nba is the worst]

And let's not kid ourselves, Perkins hasn't exactly been a shining star in OKC.  He is playing 24 minutes and averaging less then 6 points and just over 7 boards a game since the trade and is one knee bump away from missing the rest of the season.

Here's OKC's starting lineup with Perk:

108.9 points scored/100 possessions, 98.94 points allowed/100 possessions

... and OKC's starting lineup with Krstic:

108.5 points scored/100 possessions, 109.5 points allowed/100 possessions

I don't know, you tell me:  has Perk helped OKC?  They've gone from being a very poor defensive unit to one that plays at a league-leading pace.  (That 98.9 DefRtg would be higher than Chicago's current #1 defense.)

Players contribute more than their stats.  I'm just surprised that so many fans seem to be arguing the opposite.  If we want stats, why don't we trade KG for Zach Randolph, for instance?  

I'm sure that difference has nothing to do with the fact that OKC has played Washington, Miami, Charlotte, Toronto, Utah, and Minnesota, it was all Perkins not the fact that OKC has played pretty much garbage teams (Miami being the exception).

Well let's see - the Bobcats are garbage, but beat the C's last night, the jazz are garbage, despite their better record than all but 6 east teams...

That doesn't explain the head-to-head change:

Vs the Twolves in 3 pre-trade games, Twolves avg 112.3 ppg, post trade 103.

Raptors, pre 111, post 95
Miami pre 103, post 85
Washington pre 117, post 89
Jazz pre 111, post 94
Bcats pre 81, post 82
 

[dtrader]

And let's not kid ourselves, Perkins hasn't exactly been a shining star in OKC.  He is playing 24 minutes and averaging less then 6 points and just over 7 boards a game since the trade and is one knee bump away from missing the rest of the season.

Here's OKC's starting lineup with Perk:

108.9 points scored/100 possessions, 98.94 points allowed/100 possessions

... and OKC's starting lineup with Krstic:

108.5 points scored/100 possessions, 109.5 points allowed/100 possessions

I don't know, you tell me:  has Perk helped OKC?  They've gone from being a very poor defensive unit to one that plays at a league-leading pace.  (That 98.9 DefRtg would be higher than Chicago's current #1 defense.)

Players contribute more than their stats.  I'm just surprised that so many fans seem to be arguing the opposite.  If we want stats, why don't we trade KG for Zach Randolph, for instance?  

I'm sure that difference has nothing to do with the fact that OKC has played Washington, Miami, Charlotte, Toronto, Utah, and Minnesota, it was all Perkins not the fact that OKC has played pretty much garbage teams (Miami being the exception).

Well let's see - the Bobcats are garbage, but beat the C's last night, the jazz are garbage, despite their better record than all but 6 east teams...

That doesn't explain the head-to-head change:

Vs the Twolves in 3 pre-trade games, Twolves avg 112.3 ppg, post trade 103.

Raptors, pre 111, post 95
Miami pre 103, post 85
Washington pre 117, post 89
Jazz pre 111, post 94
Bcats pre 81, post 82
 

Comparing one game played before to one game played recently isn't a large enough sample size to determine anything, but even if it was...OKCs recent games were cake even compared to their matchups vs. the same teams earlier

Raptors...Toronto was @home+ OKC didn't have Durant
Washington...Had Rashard lewis 1st game. no Lewis recently
Jazz..Dwill went off 1st game...No dwill(or harris) recently
Bcats...Same
Miami...Ibaka plays 9 mins, Miami scores 103. He plays 30 they get 85.

If you want to see 1 player whose role on the team has changed, and led to OKCs defensive shift, I'd look at Ibaka...not Perkins.

[BASS_THUMPER]

we're practically undefeated in games where Shaq played playoff minutes... We'll be fine. 

Really? A 39 year old, Kind of fat guy is going to be our savior? Fine to me isn't making it to the Finals. I don';t care about making it out of the east unless we win it all.  And as it stands right now I don't even see us coming out of the east.

Anything less then #18 this year is a failure.

lol..haha..

imma tell shaq fu what u said..

he maybe older and a lil outta shape but im not gonna talk about shaq...he could still shatter the board while dunkin on you..

I'd hope he could dunk on me. I'm 37 years old and only 6'4" and not paid like an NBA player.

Now lets see what he can do to the Magic, Heat, Bulls or Lakers. If dunking over me would win the Celtics a Championship then I'd let him swing on the rim with his jung knocking me down.

They don't hand out rings for that.

all im sayin is dont clown someone you aint better than..

[SHAQATTACK]

If Red Auerbach was a GM genius - and he was - and if Red's greatest strength was his innate ability to understand people and what motivated them and helped them be the best athlete they could be within their abilities - and it was - and if Red made one brilliant personnel decision after another throughout his glorious career with the Celtics - and he did - then Danny Ainge just made possibly the stupidest and most destructive trade to ruin a Celtics championship team, just weeks away from starting their playoff run, in the history of professional basketball.

What were you trying to prove Danny - that you were the smartest guy in the room ? That you knew all along that Red was too loyal to his players and should have traded Larry Bird or Kevin McHale back in the 80's, so you just had to show everyone how you know better than he did how to manage a championship team ? You just overanalyzed, outsmarted and micromanaged the Celtics out of their 18th banner. Hope you are happy when the Lakers tie us for the most NBA titles later this year.

Thanks for posting the speech a gave my wife after I heard the full trade , 1/2 the team shipped out.  I was mad and D%^$^ I'm still PO'D

Without a banner, the only way this will ever save DA, this should go down in history as the biggest destruction to a team in professional sports by one man.

Danny  made sports history , we'll have to watch this DEMISE over and over , and over the next 50 years replayed  and I wouldn't doubt somebody might make a movie on the destruction of the Celtics.

I would have rather take a chance with what we had , add Leon Powe to replace MD , just get what we need.

It was looking like OUR BANNER to loose .

Now its our cross to bare for the next 50 years . 

[Green Hell]

If Red Auerbach was a GM genius - and he was - and if Red's greatest strength was his innate ability to understand people and what motivated them and helped them be the best athlete they could be within their abilities - and it was - and if Red made one brilliant personnel decision after another throughout his glorious career with the Celtics - and he did - then Danny Ainge just made possibly the stupidest and most destructive trade to ruin a Celtics championship team, just weeks away from starting their playoff run, in the history of professional basketball.

What were you trying to prove Danny - that you were the smartest guy in the room ? That you knew all along that Red was too loyal to his players and should have traded Larry Bird or Kevin McHale back in the 80's, so you just had to show everyone how you know better than he did how to manage a championship team ? You just overanalyzed, outsmarted and micromanaged the Celtics out of their 18th banner. Hope you are happy when the Lakers tie us for the most NBA titles later this year.

Thanks for posting the speech a gave my wife after I heard the full trade , 1/2 the team shipped out.  I was mad and D%^$^ I'm still PO'D

Without a banner, the only way this will ever save DA, this should go down in history as the biggest destruction to a team in professional sports by one man.

Danny  made sports history , we'll have to watch this DEMISE over and over , and over the next 50 years replayed  and I wouldn't doubt somebody might make a movie on the destruction of the Celtics.

I would have rather take a chance with what we had , add Leon Powe to replace MD , just get what we need.

It was looking like OUR BANNER to loose .

Now its our cross to bare for the next 50 years . 

Lump it in with Game 7, 18-1, 2003 ALCS, Bruins/Flyers, Bill Buckner, Magic's sky hook, you get the point.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

we're practically undefeated in games where Shaq played playoff minutes... We'll be fine. 

Really? A 39 year old, Kind of fat guy is going to be our savior? Fine to me isn't making it to the Finals. I don';t care about making it out of the east unless we win it all.  And as it stands right now I don't even see us coming out of the east.

Anything less then #18 this year is a failure.

lol..haha..

imma tell shaq fu what u said..

he maybe older and a lil outta shape but im not gonna talk about shaq...he could still shatter the board while dunkin on you..

I'd hope he could dunk on me. I'm 37 years old and only 6'4" and not paid like an NBA player.

Now lets see what he can do to the Magic, Heat, Bulls or Lakers. If dunking over me would win the Celtics a Championship then I'd let him swing on the rim with his jung knocking me down.

They don't hand out rings for that.

all im sayin is dont clown someone you aint better than..

What does getting "paid like and NBA player" have to do with whether someone should be able to dunk on you? Bill Gates money wouldn't make a difference. I know a bum (crackhead) who is 41 that could probably dunk on you. Shaq could dunk on any guy in the league even at 39 and while weighing infinity (a close estimate lol)! So you being shorter is not the only reason Shaq could dunk on you (I wouldn't put my age if I were you, Shaq is 39 so that is not a reason), getting paid a lot isn't a reason either, if it is, then let Jerry Lewis give me some of that MDA money and I'll make sure to jump out this wheelchair and dunk on you too!



I dunno what the cause for this bad play is so I'm just gonna stay ticked when we lose, while "knowing" we can/will be better in the playoffs!

[Onslaught]

we're practically undefeated in games where Shaq played playoff minutes... We'll be fine. 

Really? A 39 year old, Kind of fat guy is going to be our savior? Fine to me isn't making it to the Finals. I don';t care about making it out of the east unless we win it all.  And as it stands right now I don't even see us coming out of the east.

Anything less then #18 this year is a failure.

lol..haha..

imma tell shaq fu what u said..

he maybe older and a lil outta shape but im not gonna talk about shaq...he could still shatter the board while dunkin on you..

I'd hope he could dunk on me. I'm 37 years old and only 6'4" and not paid like an NBA player.

Now lets see what he can do to the Magic, Heat, Bulls or Lakers. If dunking over me would win the Celtics a Championship then I'd let him swing on the rim with his jung knocking me down.

They don't hand out rings for that.

all im sayin is dont clown someone you aint better than..

Clown? I didn't put big red shoes on him and a nose.

If I can't "clown" someone better then me then I can't talk bad (is that what clown means?) about ANY NBA player. And none else on this site can say anything bad about any other NBA player either. All of them are better then us.

Shaq wouldn't be a good clown anyway. He's to old, fat and hurt. And he was a Laker. They don't have souls

[Rondo9dunx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICdXAmd1TWA
Good ol Pitino

[winsomme]

It seems as if the point that the C's were the number one defensive team before Perkins returned is being completely ignored. Were they playing harder before Perkins came back?  Was the chemistry disrupted then? Were they thinking "Yeah, let's be the number one defensive team, but the only way to maintain this is if Perkins comes back. We can't possibly do this without him."

I love that someone brought up Anthony Parker as a viable SF option for a back up. Paul would pretty much play 48 minutes a game in the playoffs.

The Big 3 (4) have been in the league long enough where they should be grown-ups about this.

  Pretty sure the defense was #2 before Perk came back, Chicago was #1.

  And it's not just the trade, it's also the FA signings and getting West back from injury. Doc's integrating a lot of new guys into the lineup and it's bound to throw off our rhythm.

how's our rhythm going to be affected by Shaq and JO coming back? Two players who haven't played in a really long time in their FIRST season with the team...

The whole plan here is just totally off kilter. It's pretty clear the trade not only threw off chemistry but took away essential skills to our systems not replaced in the trade and to be filled by injured players who are also new to the team and having no guarantee of even returning.

A healthy JO and Shaq can turn the tide here because they replace the skills, but relying on them just seems like a wild gamble or a lack of appreciation for the importance of the elements lost in the move.

[Mazingerz]

we are overreacting. When the Cs lost to the bobcats i also felt mad. But come on, the season aint over, we have the playoffs to look forward to. Look on the positives, shaq coming back, jo coming back.

Im tired of all the finger pointing. I did not want to post today, but browsing thru the threads blaming this and blaming that person isnt going help.

And by the way, Perk is not coming back. Wake up and smell the coffee fanbois.

[kozlodoev]

we are overreacting. When the Cs lost to the bobcats i also felt mad.

This has nothing to do with the Bobcats. We're 4-6 in our last 10 games.

[kozlodoev]

If Red Auerbach was a GM genius - and he was - and if Red's greatest strength was his innate ability to understand people and what motivated them and helped them be the best athlete they could be within their abilities - and it was - and if Red made one brilliant personnel decision after another throughout his glorious career with the Celtics - and he did - then Danny Ainge just made possibly the stupidest and most destructive trade to ruin a Celtics championship team, just weeks away from starting their playoff run, in the history of professional basketball.

What were you trying to prove Danny - that you were the smartest guy in the room ? That you knew all along that Red was too loyal to his players and should have traded Larry Bird or Kevin McHale back in the 80's, so you just had to show everyone how you know better than he did how to manage a championship team ? You just overanalyzed, outsmarted and micromanaged the Celtics out of their 18th banner. Hope you are happy when the Lakers tie us for the most NBA titles later this year.

Thanks for posting the speech a gave my wife after I heard the full trade , 1/2 the team shipped out.  I was mad and D%^$^ I'm still PO'D

Without a banner, the only way this will ever save DA, this should go down in history as the biggest destruction to a team in professional sports by one man.

Danny  made sports history , we'll have to watch this DEMISE over and over , and over the next 50 years replayed  and I wouldn't doubt somebody might make a movie on the destruction of the Celtics.

I would have rather take a chance with what we had , add Leon Powe to replace MD , just get what we need.

It was looking like OUR BANNER to loose .

Now its our cross to bare for the next 50 years . 

So, the slump is now somehow because of the 1 guy who left, and not because of the 4 who stayed?

I'm sorry, but if 4 All-Stars can't figure out how to win under these circumstances, we don't deserve the title. And it will be entirely on them.

[Onslaught]

If Red Auerbach was a GM genius - and he was - and if Red's greatest strength was his innate ability to understand people and what motivated them and helped them be the best athlete they could be within their abilities - and it was - and if Red made one brilliant personnel decision after another throughout his glorious career with the Celtics - and he did - then Danny Ainge just made possibly the stupidest and most destructive trade to ruin a Celtics championship team, just weeks away from starting their playoff run, in the history of professional basketball.

What were you trying to prove Danny - that you were the smartest guy in the room ? That you knew all along that Red was too loyal to his players and should have traded Larry Bird or Kevin McHale back in the 80's, so you just had to show everyone how you know better than he did how to manage a championship team ? You just overanalyzed, outsmarted and micromanaged the Celtics out of their 18th banner. Hope you are happy when the Lakers tie us for the most NBA titles later this year.

Thanks for posting the speech a gave my wife after I heard the full trade , 1/2 the team shipped out.  I was mad and D%^$^ I'm still PO'D

Without a banner, the only way this will ever save DA, this should go down in history as the biggest destruction to a team in professional sports by one man.

Danny  made sports history , we'll have to watch this DEMISE over and over , and over the next 50 years replayed  and I wouldn't doubt somebody might make a movie on the destruction of the Celtics.

I would have rather take a chance with what we had , add Leon Powe to replace MD , just get what we need.

It was looking like OUR BANNER to loose .

Now its our cross to bare for the next 50 years . 

So, the slump is now somehow because of the 1 guy who left, and not because of the 4 who stayed?

I'm sorry, but if 4 All-Stars can't figure out how to win under these circumstances, we don't deserve the title. And it will be entirely on them.

It wasn't just one guy. We have a whole new bench. That on paper looked good but now to me anyway isn't looking that good at all.

Danny had to do something with MD getting hurt. I'm not mad about that at all. But I'm not sure he had to go as far as he did.

[Mazingerz]

we are overreacting. When the Cs lost to the bobcats i also felt mad.

This has nothing to do with the Bobcats. We're 4-6 in our last 10 games.

But were you able see that they went on a nice winning streak prior to this? It takes time to make a cohesive unit from new personnel.

The trade was necessary in my opinion. Perk wanted max money. Money which the celtics could not afford given the situation. It all boils down to managing how we could be a better team with him or without him.

I loved perk, hell I really loved how he handled himself during our title run, but come on he wanted more since the hype surrounding his defensive prowess grew bigger and bigger.

It a rollercoaster ride my friends. We are fortunate that we do have more ups than downs. Imagine being a Wolves or Cavs fan - we would have died of stress by now.