Krstic is being overrated

[BudweiserCeltic]

You really going to use the Bucks game as an example? No one showed up to play in that game, in fact it was Krstic's contributions that kept us in the game in the first half so we could do our thing in the 2nd half.

Not that you're not making good points, but let's wait for a game in where the team actually comes with some intent to play the game. Also, we've always been bad with young athletic teams who are good offensive rebounders. Atlanta quickly comes to mind.

A lot of the problem was Krstic being out of position for rebounds since he had to step up to stop penetration.

What about his entire career? Is that good enough for you? Krstic is just slow leaving the floor, to the point he rarely leaves it. This was evident in the game versus the Bucks.

The scoring doesn't impress me. In the playoffs, this teams needs more defense and rebounding from its role-players, not scoring.

Bigs are supposed to step up to stop penetration, not to stay below the basket waiting for rebounds. Everybody does it, but very few are as bad getting rebounds as Krstic.

I'm not arguing against Krstic's ability or lack thereof to rebound. I'm arguing that too much emphasis for our team's rebounding problem last night was due to Krstic, because Krstic also played most of his minutes with our starters during that portion also, and our starters didn't show up to play.

Krstic is not a good rebounder, but our problem rebounding last night was more of a team wide problem than an individual problem, that's all I'm saying.

For all the making fun of those two midgets, KG only had 11 rebounds. Pierce only 5. Ray only 2. Rondo only 4.

Clearly Krstic was quite bad rebounding last night, but so where the rest of the team and that's why it was lopsided. Not because we had Krstic instead of a better rebounder for example, in the mold of Perkins... because it's teams like these that always give us problems rebounding regardless of it being Krstic in there or Perkins.

My point is that the team is more than capable of rebounding better and covering up a bit for Krstic's limitations. We've constantly seen it when we crash the boards. But if you're going to leave a slow footed center to the mercy of fast athelitic players, then you're going to get toasted.

This same Brockman you're laughing about grabbed 2 offensive rebounds against us earlier this season in just 5 minutes. They grabbed 13 total offensive rebounds, given they had Bogut in there beasting it up, but we also had better depth in our center position.

Last year, with all our starters and Mbah starting. They beat us at the boards 44-35 in one game, with Mbah grabbing 2 offensive rebounds in 29 minutes. They grabbed 14 offensive rebounds in that game.

So yeah, Krstic weak rebounder, but is that going to be a big negative on our team when the rest of our guys pick up that burden as needed? You have less scorers, then someone has to step up. Same here, and we got enough people to step up.

I'm arguing that the biggest problem last night was not Krstic's poor rebounding, but our starters coming to compete.

[Mike-Dub]

So, who will be the next guy to become overrated?  My money is on Arroyo.  It has been so long since we have had a backup PG who is halfway decent, I think he is going to get a lot of love. 

I was in love with the idea of bringing him in before we even did  .

[bbd24]

Krstic was a throw-in.  The trade was Perk for Jeff Green and I think time will show Jeff Green is a far better basketball player than Perk.   I would have done the trade with or without Krstic.   That said, Krstic looks like he'll contribute.  Definitely better on offense than Perk.

I believed the same thing. Green and the 1st rounder was the gold. Krstic was the throw in. Now, I'll take that throw in as our veteran backup center for years to come. Solid 27 yr old starter who now gets to play against backups. He'll fill his role perfectly. I had no clue his hands and 15-17 ft J were as good as they are.

Green and Krstics game get even better when they get to play with the core 4. Not to mention being taught the ropes by Doc and Danny. The people on and around this team make newcomers better. Ask Semih Erden.

[LarBrd33]

Krstic was a throw-in.  The trade was Perk for Jeff Green and I think time will show Jeff Green is a far better basketball player than Perk.   I would have done the trade with or without Krstic.   That said, Krstic looks like he'll contribute.  Definitely better on offense than Perk.

I believed the same thing. Green and the 1st rounder was the gold. Krstic was the throw in. Now, I'll take that throw in as our veteran backup center for years to come. Solid 27 yr old starter who now gets to play against backups. He'll fill his role perfectly. I had no clue his hands and 15-17 ft J were as good as they are.

Green and Krstics game get even better when they get to play with the core 4. Not to mention being taught the ropes by Doc and Danny. The people on and around this team make newcomers better. Ask Semih Erden.

Krstic will bring different positives than Perk.  Perk is strong and tough to move.  Perk is wide enough to set great screens.  And Perk had 8 years to learn this system.  People talk about Perk like he was a roaming giant on defense... a Ben Wallace/Dwight Howard who makes players afraid to drive into the paint for fear of getting blocked.  I never saw Perk like that.  He wasn't quick or athletic enough to be that kind of defensive center.  Oklahoma fans obviously think that's what they are getting, but I think they are going to be surprised.  He was a cog in our defensive system... not a defensive Juggernaut.  If we need a big heavy body to make things tough for Dwight Howard one-on-one... Shaq will probably help.

I think Krstic is "longer" than Perk... if he ever fits into this team's defense, it will be in a different way than Perk.  If he can pick up the rotations, he and KG can cover a lot of ground together and I can see those long limbs getting a lot of deflections.  Jeff Green's length will help as well if he's playing SF.   It will take time for these guys to pick up the system, but the Celtics are a team who has 100% bought into the importance of defense... it's not something they will take lightly... and I'm sure these guys will fit into the system eventually. 

Nobody comes to this squad with a reputation for good defense (other than KG).  Funny everyone who leaves this squad seems to have that reputation though...

[droponov]

Straw men and weasel wording aside, I think that Krstic's personal rebounding numbers aren't as important as the team's rebounding when Krstic is on the floor.  The first thing is a decent predictor of the second, but the second thing is what actually happens and what we ultimately care about (speak up otherwise, those who disagree).

I disagree. Individual rebounding rate is generally a much  better indicator because it's only marginally affected by teammates. Overall team rebounding is greatly affected by teammates though. I like to look at both.

In the last 3 seasons, OKC's rebounding has been -0.3%, -1.6% and -3% worse with Krstic on the floor. They ranked 13th, 15th and 17th in DRR those same years (4th, 3th and 11th in ORR, but diminishing returns aren't relevant for offensive rebounds).

Also, Petro, Wilcox, Ibaka and Collison - Krstic's competition at the 5 during those years - all posted higher rebounding rates than Krstic. In some cases, significantly higher.

I think the conclusion is obvious.

I also like to watch film. To me, amongst the most important things for a rebounder is to be quick leaving the floor, going for the ball. The ability to leap high is hugely overrated. It doesn't matter. Equally important is the ability to read the flight of the ball. Less important but still extremely useful is the ability to find his man and block out. Krstic is very slow reacting, doesn't' position himself well and has poor vertical quickness.

[LarBrd33]

Straw men and weasel wording aside, I think that Krstic's personal rebounding numbers aren't as important as the team's rebounding when Krstic is on the floor.  The first thing is a decent predictor of the second, but the second thing is what actually happens and what we ultimately care about (speak up otherwise, those who disagree).

I disagree. Individual rebounding rate is generally a much  better indicator because it's only marginally affected by teammates. Overall team rebounding is greatly affected by teammates though. I like to look at both.

In the last 3 seasons, OKC's rebounding has been -0.3%, -1.6% and -3% worse with Krstic on the floor. They ranked 13th, 15th and 17th in DRR those same years (4th, 3th and 11th in ORR, but diminishing returns aren't relevant for offensive rebounds).

Also, Petro, Wilcox, Ibaka and Collison - Krstic's competition at the 5 during those years - all posted higher rebounding rates than Krstic. In some cases, significantly higher.

I think the conclusion is obvious.

I also like to watch film. To me, amongst the most important things for a rebounder is to be quick leaving the floor, going for the ball. The ability to leap high is hugely overrated. It doesn't matter. Equally important is the ability to read the flight of the ball. Less important but still extremely useful is the ability to find his man and block out. Krstic is very slow reacting, doesn't' position himself well and has poor vertical quickness.

I have to agree that team rebounding is more important than individual rebounding.  I like to give Glen Davis crap and point out his crappy rebounding, but I imagine that fatty actually causes a lot of rebounds for the rest of our players by boxing out with his obese frame.

I'm sure Perk overall is a better rebounder than Krstic

[LooseCannon]

Krstic was a throw-in.  The trade was Perk for Jeff Green and I think time will show Jeff Green is a far better basketball player than Perk.   I would have done the trade with or without Krstic.   That said, Krstic looks like he'll contribute.  Definitely better on offense than Perk.

I wouldn't exactly call Krstic a throw-in.  He's better than your typical interchangeable journeyman center.  Perkins for Green doesn't happen unless Ainge can bring in a reliable big.

If Krstic had been a free agent and Ainge had split the MLE on him and Shaq last summer instead of signing Jermaine O'Neal, I would have been satisfied.

[Greenbean]

First things first, let me say that Nenad Krstic's offense has been very good.  For a guy who hasn't learned the system yet, he's played very well.  I don't think anybody can criticize him much for what he's done on the offensive end of the floor, and that includes his offensive rebounding, which has been a very pleasant surprise.

However, I'm surprised by the number of fans who have said something along the lines of "even if Shaq or JO are hurt, we'll be fine because we have Krstic".  I think statements like that really overrate Krstic's game, and underrate the importance of defense and rebounding.

Krstic is a VERY weak defensive rebounder.  You know all the criticism that BBD has gotten about his rebounding?  Well, Krstic is quite a bit worse on that end.  He's grabbing 3.7 defensive rebounds per 36 minutes, an absolutely horrific number.  That's 10th among guys who have played for us this year, and is well behind Paul Pierce (5.0 DRB per 36 minutes).  It's only very slightly better than Delonte West and Marquis Daniels -- 3.5 and 3.4 DRB per 36, respectively -- and isn't far off from Rondo's 2.9 or Ray's 2.8.  That's right:  our starting center is closer to Ray Allen as a rebounder than he is to Paul Pierce (let alone KG or Perk).

It's true that Krstic is new here, but I wouldn't expect his defensive numbers to improve drastically; he's been a very poor defensive rebounder since the '08-'09 season, at least, and has really only had one decent half-season in his career in terms of rebounding.  In other words, it's a major weakness.

Why does this matter?  As I'm sure we all remember, failure to secure defensive rebounds was a big part of our loss in last year's Finals.  We are a middle of the road team in terms of rebounding, and replacing Perk with Krstic hurts tremendously in that area.  Additionally, relying too much on Krstic handcuffs Doc in terms of the lineups he can play; you can't effectively play Krstic at center with either BBD or Jeff Green at power forward, as both of those players are poor rebounders as well.

Similarly, Krstic's defense isn't great.  Again, some of this will improve with familiarity, and Krstic isn't terrible on the defensive end.  He's just not as good as Shaq, JO, or Perk defending guys 1-on-1, and he's not as good as JO or Perk defending the pick-and-roll or on help defense.  He may reach the level of "adequate" on defense, but it will never be a strength.  Part of the strength of our defense is that it allows perimeter players to release their man to our big men waiting in the paint.  Krstic just isn't as imposing down there as JO, Shaq, or Perk.

This isn't a thread to "bash" Krstic.  Like I said, I think he's been great on one end of the floor.  However, I do think it's very important that we have either Shaq or JO back; their presence is going to be a very important piece of our championship puzzle.  As Danny said in the Shaughnessy interview, "Now if Shaq and Jermaine [O'Neal] can't play we could be in trouble".  I agree with that sentiment, and don't want to see people disappointed if Krstic doesn't live up to their perhaps unrealistic expectations. 

Totally agree Roy (sometimes I wish I could just say that I disagree but its rare).

No Shaq or JO and no title IMO.

Krstic has been very good on offense but it does not cover up his rebounding troubles. He has even been better than I expected at hedging against the P&R but his one on one post defense is pretty bad. John Brockman scored on Krstic a couple of times last night. He is one of those guys that just puts his hands straight up in the air. The best post defenders are constantly on the line of fouling and blocking a shot. The guys that stick their hands high in the air to show the refs they are not fouling are inviting a player to go up strong.

Last night KG had to shift into Minnesota mode and sky for every defensive rebound late in the game. It was awesome to watch but KG cant do that every game any more and I think he would break down in a deep playoff run if he was depended on to do so. I do love the fact that he can go to the well and find some hops in spurts though.

Krstic is a weapon on offense. He will be awesome in the 2nd unit. He will be exposed and targeted in the playoffs as the starter.

[2short]

Well I figure it this way.  We traded Perk for Jeff Green AND a 1st rd pick (great trade).
We traded Nate for Krstic even up.  I would do the trade all day every day.  Krstic gives us different things.   He is leaps above Perks best offensive game.  These things more than make up for low post defense and shot blocking, perks strong points. 

[KevinConnor]

Strange how a lot of people on this blog are so concerned about Krstic rebounding. Especially compared to Perkins rebounding. How well would Perkins be rebounding for us right now? Considering that he won't be playing the next three weeks his rebounding numbers wouldn't have been that good I guess. And even if he will be able to play after those three weeks I find it hard to believe he would have been that much of an asset in the playoffs as a rebounder. Krstic may be a bad rebounder but the guy he replaced won't be rebounding much either.

[greenpride32]

Many are "overrating" Curly because they didn't even know who he was before the trade.  They assumed he was some garbage time backup center.  But he's actually a CAREER starting center.  So the expectation was he would contribute nothing. I know many even commented our title chances were over w/o Perk. But Kris actually been very effective in one of our weakest areas; rebounding.

My take on the whole situation is our other 4 positions are so talented and work so well together it really doens't matter who plays the 5.  We won early in the year with Shaq.  Then when he was in and out, we still won with Semih.  Heck we even won some games with Chris Johnson at the 5.  The 5 has really been our weak spot during the whole new big 3 era, and we've done just fine.

[Roy H.]

Strange how a lot of people on this blog are so concerned about Krstic rebounding. Especially compared to Perkins rebounding.

Strange how a lot of people on this blog can't acknowledge any of Krstic's weaknesses without a knee jerk reaction where they have to defend Danny's trade.

This thread isn't a rehash of the trade.  It's a discussion of Krstic as a player, and how a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of him, while further pointing out how important it is to get Shaq and JO back.

I mean, seriously, the guy is only slightly better than Ray Allen as a defensive rebounder so far.  I think that's a legit thing to point out.

[Interceptor]

I disagree. Individual rebounding rate is generally a much  better indicator because it's only marginally affected by teammates. Overall team rebounding is greatly affected by teammates though. I like to look at both.

I think that you are disagreeing with something that I didn't argue.  The point that I was making here isn't that individual rebounding numbers are inferior indicators of someone's rebounding ability when compared to team rebounds when said person is on the floor; my point was that those individual numbers just aren't all that important in the grand scheme of things, that team rebounding is what matters most.

In other words, I care about rebounding, but only to the extent that rebound help the Celtics win games.  If Krstic's impact on team rebounding is minor in spite of his low personal numbers, that's something that I am OK with.

[Bankshot]

"Krstic is being overrated"

So is Perk.

Eh, I don't think there are that many people overrating him.  He is awesome.  I think he's wayyyyyyyyy better than Perk offensively though.

[Rondo9dunx]

Strange how a lot of people on this blog are so concerned about Krstic rebounding. Especially compared to Perkins rebounding.

Strange how a lot of people on this blog can't acknowledge any of Krstic's weaknesses without a knee jerk reaction where they have to defend Danny's trade.

This thread isn't a rehash of the trade.  It's a discussion of Krstic as a player, and how a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of him, while further pointing out how important it is to get Shaq and JO back.

I mean, seriously, the guy is only slightly better than Ray Allen as a defensive rebounder so far.  I think that's a legit thing to point out.

shouldnt his defensive rebounding numbers be lower than perk's by design? Perk offered nothing to the team other than stayin down low and waiting for a rebound. Maybe krstic doesnt get as many because he's so useful outside the paint?

idk, I def agree with you for the most part Roy, but I think it's partially by design as well. I also think he'll get better.