How is my Pick 2 team?

[Rondo2287]

Am I missing something or did you just quote yourself without adding anything?

Ah, I am not missing anything.

Sorry I meant to edit and then i realized i did quote by accident and couldn't delete it

[Rondo2287]

Can I ask what makes you say this? have you watched a great deal of film including what happens when Gooden try's to defend other teams centers?  For instance when watching the milwaukee Bucks this year have you scene Gooden try to defend a center and seen him overpowered or not long enough to contest a shot?  Box score watching can only go so far. 

Yes, I have watched him in Milwaukee + the Clippers + the Bulls + Mavericks + Spurs + Cavs + Magic going all the way back to his rookie season in Memphis.

The problem has consistent throughout his career. His main problem in individual defense is his lack of power making him vulnerable against players with bigger size. They push him around, get deep position in the paint and higher percentage shots as a result.

However, the man-to-man defense is not the biggest problem with Gooden. It's his team defense. He is frequently out of position, late on defensive rotations and provides no shot-blocking presence at the basket.

When Gooden is in the game, perimeter players on dribble penetration can frequently get high percentage shots at the rim because he was too late or in an poor position to properly contest the shot. His poor defensive positioning also leads to bountiful opportunities for perimeter slashers to dump the ball off to big men rolling to the basket for easy garbage baskets.

Drew Gooden is wholly inadequate to be a team's last line of defense because of his atrocious team defense. They could live with his weak man-to-man D, especially against lesser offensive threats, if he played solid team defense ... but that is simply not the case.

In order to allow Drew Gooden to be (somewhat) effective, Gooden needs to be kept at the power forward position alongside someone who is an above average defender and is preferably a shot-blocking presence.

I disagree, in every Bucks game I have watched this year I have seen him defend the 5 position well enough. 

[Who]

Drew Gooden's inability to play sufficient defense is the main reason why he has 7 different teams in the past 3 years and why perennial NBA contenders like Dallas and San Antonio parted with him so easily.

Gooden is one of those players who puts up nice per game / per minute numbers is largely ineffective in the way he contributes to his team.

[Rondo2287]

Drew Gooden's inability to play sufficient defense is the main reason why he has 7 different teams in the past 3 years and why perennial NBA contenders like Dallas and San Antonio parted with him so easily.

Gooden is one of those players who puts up nice per game / per minute numbers is largely ineffective in the way he contributes to his team.

I wouldn't say dallas easily parted with him... He was in the Haywood and Caron Butler trade, two superior players.    Also he only signed a deal with the Spurs after getting bought out earlier in the season by the kings.  Can't really imagine the spurs being interested in him if they didnt think he was capable of defending. 

Everything I have seen of him he is a quality man to man defender, serviceable team defender, and not a great weak side shot blocker.

[Rondo2287]

Drew Gooden's inability to play sufficient defense is the main reason why he has 7 different teams in the past 3 years and why perennial NBA contenders like Dallas and San Antonio parted with him so easily.

Gooden is one of those players who puts up nice per game / per minute numbers is largely ineffective in the way he contributes to his team.

I wouldn't say dallas easily parted with him... He was in the Haywood and Caron Butler trade, two superior players.    Also he only signed a deal with the Spurs after getting bought out earlier in the season by the kings.  Can't really imagine the spurs being interested in him if they didnt think he was capable of defending. 

Everything I have seen of him he is a quality man to man defender, serviceable team defender, and not a great weak side shot blocker.

Also, I am a firm believer in the fact that anybody given the right motivation and coaching can play good team defense.  If IP has players and coaches that can motivate the rest of the team to defend there is no reason to believe somebody with all the physical tools that Gooden has wouldn't be an effective defender.

[Who]

Drew Gooden's inability to play sufficient defense is the main reason why he has 7 different teams in the past 3 years and why perennial NBA contenders like Dallas and San Antonio parted with him so easily.

Gooden is one of those players who puts up nice per game / per minute numbers is largely ineffective in the way he contributes to his team.

I wouldn't say dallas easily parted with him... He was in the Haywood and Caron Butler trade, two superior players.    Also he only signed a deal with the Spurs after getting bought out earlier in the season by the kings.  Can't really imagine the spurs being interested in him if they didnt think he was capable of defending. 

Everything I have seen of him he is a quality man to man defender, serviceable team defender, and not a great weak side shot blocker.

Also, I am a firm believer in the fact that anybody given the right motivation and coaching can play good team defense.  If IP has players and coaches that can motivate the rest of the team to defend there is no reason to believe somebody with all the physical tools that Gooden has wouldn't be an effective defender.

This -- your post directly above -- is the reason why Gooden should be used as a PF instead of a C ... in order to play alongside a quality defensive teammates who can put him in a position to play serviceable team defense instead of forcing him to be a defensive anchor where he is unable to provide sufficient help defense.

It allows Gooden be a follower instead of a leader defensively.

Which Milwaukee can easily do with Andrew Bogut and Serge Ibaka.

[indeedproceed]

It should be noted that the biggest reason I chose Gooden over some other 4/5's that are still available is that he was in my opinion the best option for what I needed.

Gooden brings the potential of an inside/outside scorer at the 4 (outside as in 25 feet, not 3pt range) along with quality rebounding. When Bogut is out and Ibaka is at the 5, another able scorer in the paint is a must. On top of that, both Ibaka and Bogut are very good (Ibaka) to elite (Bogut) defenders in the paint, so I didn't need to select a 4/5 here who brought that to the table, even though the best PF/C's left talentwise were primarily defensive guys.

What I needed was a second unit scorer that could take the burden of being a post presence on offense when Bogut wasn't in the game.

[mgent]

It should be noted that the biggest reason I chose Gooden over some other 4/5's that are still available is that he was in my opinion the best option for what I needed.

Gooden brings the potential of an inside/outside scorer at the 4 (outside as in 25 feet, not 3pt range) along with quality rebounding. When Bogut is out and Ibaka is at the 5, another able scorer in the paint is a must. On top of that, both Ibaka and Bogut are very good (Ibaka) to elite (Bogut) defenders in the paint, so I didn't need to select a 4/5 here who brought that to the table, even though the best PF/C's left talentwise were primarily defensive guys.

What I needed was a second unit scorer that could take the burden of being a post presence on offense when Bogut wasn't in the game.

How deep is the 3pt line in this league?!?!

[indeedproceed]

It should be noted that the biggest reason I chose Gooden over some other 4/5's that are still available is that he was in my opinion the best option for what I needed.

Gooden brings the potential of an inside/outside scorer at the 4 (outside as in 25 feet, not 3pt range) along with quality rebounding. When Bogut is out and Ibaka is at the 5, another able scorer in the paint is a must. On top of that, both Ibaka and Bogut are very good (Ibaka) to elite (Bogut) defenders in the paint, so I didn't need to select a 4/5 here who brought that to the table, even though the best PF/C's left talentwise were primarily defensive guys.

What I needed was a second unit scorer that could take the burden of being a post presence on offense when Bogut wasn't in the game.

How deep is the 3pt line in this league?!?!

I'm pretty sure its 45 and a half feet. Unless you're talking womens' basketball..but nobody ever talks women's basketball.

I meant 15 feet...Gooden hits 45% of his shots from 16-23 feet, and is 62% at the rim.

[action781]

Kyle Lowry
Landry Fields/Reggie Williams
Paul Pierce/Reggie Williams
Serge Ibaka/Drew Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Drew Gooden

Last Pick Thoughts: I wanted to add an established post presence that could play the 4 or 5, and could score and rebound. Gooden brings that, and also can defend when his heart is in it.

You're team has been very "meh" in my mind so far with the idea of Bogut and Ibaka starting next to eachother.  I just don't know if they will complement eachother well or not.  I really like the idea of you starting Gooden now (20-25 min), then having Ibaka come off the bench for the 4/5 playing 25-30 total minutes.  Otherwise, that original starting lineup has pretty weak scoring.

[indeedproceed]

Kyle Lowry
Landry Fields/Reggie Williams
Paul Pierce/Reggie Williams
Serge Ibaka/Drew Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Drew Gooden

Last Pick Thoughts: I wanted to add an established post presence that could play the 4 or 5, and could score and rebound. Gooden brings that, and also can defend when his heart is in it.

You're team has been very "meh" in my mind so far with the idea of Bogut and Ibaka starting next to eachother.  I just don't know if they will complement eachother well or not.  I really like the idea of you starting Gooden now (20-25 min), then having Ibaka come off the bench for the 4/5 playing 25-30 total minutes.  Otherwise, that original starting lineup has pretty weak scoring.

Well Gooden and Williams were both meant to give a distinctly different look. Both Williams and Gooden are versatile scorers for their positions, and while they're going to bring the defense down, they'll bring the offense up.

Ibaka and Bogut next to each other, you're right aren't going to score a ton of points. Skill-wise though I think they're a good match. Ibaka is an very solid midrange shooter (47%, same as KG) and athletic finisher at the hoop, while Bogut is a viable post presence around the basket.

I think offensively, they complement each other well.

Gooden though brings something else. While he's not the defensive presence Ibaka and Bogut are, he is the versatile scorer neither of them are.

As long as one of them is in the game to be the primary help defender and shot discourager, Gooden should be allowed to do what he does best (rebound and score) while not being asked to do what he can't (anchor a defense). He can also score in a manner that complements either players' skillset, whether is means providing Bogut room to work (45% on long 2's...KG is only 2% points higher), or work around the basket (62% around the hoop, with a low percentage assisted, meaning they dump and he scores) while Ibaka provides a lethal (47%) jump shooting threat from the elbows.

BWAHAHAAA!!!! BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

[action781]

Kyle Lowry
Landry Fields/Reggie Williams
Paul Pierce/Reggie Williams
Serge Ibaka/Drew Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Drew Gooden

Last Pick Thoughts: I wanted to add an established post presence that could play the 4 or 5, and could score and rebound. Gooden brings that, and also can defend when his heart is in it.

You're team has been very "meh" in my mind so far with the idea of Bogut and Ibaka starting next to eachother.  I just don't know if they will complement eachother well or not.  I really like the idea of you starting Gooden now (20-25 min), then having Ibaka come off the bench for the 4/5 playing 25-30 total minutes.  Otherwise, that original starting lineup has pretty weak scoring.

Well Gooden and Williams were both meant to give a distinctly different look. Both Williams and Gooden are versatile scorers for their positions, and while they're going to bring the defense down, they'll bring the offense up.

Ibaka and Bogut next to each other, you're right aren't going to score a ton of points. Skill-wise though I think they're a good match. Ibaka is an very solid midrange shooter (47%, same as KG) and athletic finisher at the hoop, while Bogut is a viable post presence around the basket.

I think offensively, they complement each other well.

Gooden though brings something else. While he's not the defensive presence Ibaka and Bogut are, he is the versatile scorer neither of them are.

As long as one of them is in the game to be the primary help defender and shot discourager, Gooden should be allowed to do what he does best (rebound and score) while not being asked to do what he can't (anchor a defense). He can also score in a manner that complements either players' skillset, whether is means providing Bogut room to work (45% on long 2's...KG is only 2% points higher), or work around the basket (62% around the hoop, with a low percentage assisted, meaning they dump and he scores) while Ibaka provides a lethal (47%) jump shooting threat from the elbows.

BWAHAHAAA!!!! BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

I don't really like to consider all %'s equally.  I don't know how to find those stats as well as all of you, but what is Rondo's fg% on long 2's?  And what is Paul Pierce's?  I'd actually be willing to guess that they are surprisingly equal.  Yet you still don't want to plan an offense around Rondo taking those long 2's, do you?  His % is where it is because he passes down those shots frequently and only takes them when they are completely uncontested.  In my experience watching OKC, the same is true for Serge on those long 2's.  Yeah, I've definitely seen him knock them down, but every time he does, I say to myself "wow, nice shot there" just like I do every time Rondo hits it.  I don't say to myself the "that's going in" I say when it's in the air like I do with KG and PP when they get wide open shots.

[indeedproceed]

Kyle Lowry
Landry Fields/Reggie Williams
Paul Pierce/Reggie Williams
Serge Ibaka/Drew Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Drew Gooden

Last Pick Thoughts: I wanted to add an established post presence that could play the 4 or 5, and could score and rebound. Gooden brings that, and also can defend when his heart is in it.

You're team has been very "meh" in my mind so far with the idea of Bogut and Ibaka starting next to eachother.  I just don't know if they will complement eachother well or not.  I really like the idea of you starting Gooden now (20-25 min), then having Ibaka come off the bench for the 4/5 playing 25-30 total minutes.  Otherwise, that original starting lineup has pretty weak scoring.

Well Gooden and Williams were both meant to give a distinctly different look. Both Williams and Gooden are versatile scorers for their positions, and while they're going to bring the defense down, they'll bring the offense up.

Ibaka and Bogut next to each other, you're right aren't going to score a ton of points. Skill-wise though I think they're a good match. Ibaka is an very solid midrange shooter (47%, same as KG) and athletic finisher at the hoop, while Bogut is a viable post presence around the basket.

I think offensively, they complement each other well.

Gooden though brings something else. While he's not the defensive presence Ibaka and Bogut are, he is the versatile scorer neither of them are.

As long as one of them is in the game to be the primary help defender and shot discourager, Gooden should be allowed to do what he does best (rebound and score) while not being asked to do what he can't (anchor a defense). He can also score in a manner that complements either players' skillset, whether is means providing Bogut room to work (45% on long 2's...KG is only 2% points higher), or work around the basket (62% around the hoop, with a low percentage assisted, meaning they dump and he scores) while Ibaka provides a lethal (47%) jump shooting threat from the elbows.

BWAHAHAAA!!!! BWAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!

I don't really like to consider all %'s equally.  I don't know how to find those stats as well as all of you, but what is Rondo's fg% on long 2's?  And what is Paul Pierce's?  I'd actually be willing to guess that they are surprisingly equal.  Yet you still don't want to plan an offense around Rondo taking those long 2's, do you?  His % is where it is because he passes down those shots frequently and only takes them when they are completely uncontested.  In my experience watching OKC, the same is true for Serge on those long 2's.  Yeah, I've definitely seen him knock them down, but every time he does, I say to myself "wow, nice shot there" just like I do every time Rondo hits it.  I don't say to myself the "that's going in" I say when it's in the air like I do with KG and PP when they get wide open shots.

I understand your skepticism, and I look forward to demolishing it.

Here is the source:

http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx

Ibaka takes roughly 2 long 2's a game. He takes 3 shots around the rim (mostly layins and dunks), and 1.5 shots outside the circle but less than 10 feet.

As per your Rondo thing..he takes nearly as many long 2 shots as Pierce does, and actually shoots a higher %. Take from that what you will.

Here is what Hollinger says about Ibaka's jumpshot too:

+ Skinny, raw but super-athletic forward. Great shot-blocker but fouls too much.

+ Has solid 15-foot jumper and can finish around basket. Has no post game.

+ Miserably bad ball handler. Needs to develop ball skills and offensive instincts.

Ibaka morphed from "project" to "rotation player" seemingly overnight, as he was too good to keep off the floor despite his rough edges. Ibaka led all power forwards in blocks per minute and ranked ninth overall with nearly three per minute; he also ranked eighth at his position in rebound rate despite his slim build.

A more pleasant surprise was that he could score. Ibaka netted 13.0 points per 40 minutes and ranked 20th among power forwards in TS percent. Better yet he could space the floor decently, making a respectable 40.4 percent of his long 2s.

Now, about those rough edges. Ibaka is purely a finisher at this point -- he stood at the bottom among power forwards in assist ratio and second to last in pure point rating. Only three players at his position were more turnover-prone. Ibaka also fouls with abandon, committing one every 6.8 minutes; he'll need to cut that down if he ever wants to start.

But for a 21-year-old who was playing barefoot outdoors just a few years ago, his progress has been breathtaking.

[indeedproceed]

Kyle Lowry/Jerryd Bayless
Landry Fields/Reggie Williams/Jerryd Bayless
Paul Pierce/Reggie Williams
Serge Ibaka/Drew Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Serge Ibaka

[wdleehi]

Kyle Lowry/Jerryd Bayless
Landry Fields/Reggie Williams/Jerryd Bayless
Paul Pierce/Reggie Williams
Serge Ibaka/Drew Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Serge Ibaka

Need a little more nastiness down low off the bench.