Ongoing NFL draft chat

[Chris]

Unless they think Ingram is a franchise RB, no point in taking him in the first. I personally like Ryan Williams just as much, and he will be there in the 2nd. You can get good RB's in the 2nd/3rd round, so i'm fine with passing up Ingram. It's likely they can get the same defensive player at 33, that they could have gotten at 28.

Now they have three 2nd's this year, and two firsts next year.

Yeah.  I think Ingram is going to be very good, but I just don't think in todays NFL, and particularly the Pats system, he is a guy you can't pass on.

And again, there is a reason he dropped so far.  Now, unlike some of the D-linemen (who I just think were dramatically overrated), I think this is just a clear indication of the way the league has gone.  It is a passing league, and a RB by committee league.  

[Cman]

Carimi to the Bears.  I'm very happy with that pick.  He was who I was hoping for, outside of Castonzo.

yes, solid.

[Big_Matt34]

So the Pats got the Saints second round pick this year?

Yep, now they have the following picks tomorrow alone.

33, 56, 60, 74 & 90.

And honestly, there's not a huge difference between the late first guys, and the guys you can get in the 2nd/early 3rd. I'm a fan of the trade personally.

[Cman]

jets up next.  can't stand them.

[birdwatcher]

Not a sexy first round, but day 2 will net us something. Gotta say it must be hard going into the draft without having the free agency period first. Especially where Bill likes to have some veterans and our team is already quite young, especially on defense.

[Roy H.]

also, I don't understand why the Pats keep getting hit on not selecting Clay Matthews.  If you redo that draft, no way he slips out of top 5.  So it wasn't just BB that missed on Clay, it was like 20 other teams....
But because he was selected in the spot the Pats traded out of, it was somehow this huge miss for them, but not anyone picking before them.

I think a lot of the criticism is because Matthews was projected to go to the Pats by so many pundits.  He was the best player at a perceived position of need, and the Pats passed on him to trade out.

It's sort of like when the Celtics picked Joe Forte over Tony Parker.  It hurts because everybody and their brother had Parker slotted for the Celts, and they passed on him.

[KungPoweChicken]

Looks like the Jets defense gets richer.

[Cman]

gosh darn it, i was really hoping that would be the pick #33.

[PosImpos]

What the eff?  The Patriots could have taken Mark Ingram at 28 and they traded the pick?  Seriously?

[crownsy]

But BB *has* taken shots with his draft picks.

the one thing you guys are over looking is that the picks can be used in trades.

e.g.: when thinking back to the 2007 draft, you have to factor in that the Pats got Wes Welker via the 2 #2 picks.

This year, if trades are allowed starting tomorrow, one of the three #2 picks could turn into WR Steve Smith.

and he's missed cman, look at this:

2006, a draft where we had been sold the year before what a great tactition bill was for stockpiling picks

21   1   Laurence   Maroney   RB   Minnesota
2006   36   2   Chad   Jackson   WR   Florida
2006   86   3   David   Thomas   TE   Texas
2006   118   4   Stephen   Gostkowski   K   Memphis
2006   106   4   Garrett   Mills   RB   Tulsa
2006   136   5   Ryan   O'Callaghan   T   California
2006   191   6   Jeremy   Mincey   LB   Florida
2006   206   6   Le Kevin   Smith   DL   Nebraska
2006   205   6   Dan   Stephenson   G   Notre Dame
2006   229   7   Willie   Andrews   DB   Baylor

Sweet kicker we got there

lets take a look at 2007, another value year

2007   24   1   Brandon   Meriweather   S   Miami (Fla.)
2007   127   4   Kareem   Brown   DL   Miami (Fla.)
2007   171   5   Clint   Oldenburg   T   Colorado State
2007   208   6   Justise   Hairston   RB   Central Connecticut
2007   202   6   Mike   Richardson   CB   Notre Dame
2007   180   6   Justin   Rogers   LB   Southern Methodist
2007   247   7   Mike   Elgin   G/C   Iowa
2007   211   7   Oscar   Lua   LB   Southern California

Sweet huh? other than the vastly overated merriweather, stop me when you see a contributor

2008 time!

2008   10   1   Jerod   Mayo   LB   Tennessee
2008   62   2   Terrence   Wheatley   CB   Colorado
2008   78   3   Shawn   Crable   LB   Michigan
2008   94   3   Kevin   O'Connell   QB   San Diego State
2008   129   4   Jonathan   Wilhite   CB   Auburn
2008   153   5   Matthew   Slater   WR   UCLA
2008   197   6   Bo   Ruud   LB   Nebraska

look at all that 2nd and 3rd round value huh? seriously, aside from mayo (stud) what did all that value get us?

2009 anyone?

2009   40   2   Ron   Brace   DT   Boston College
2009   41   2   Darius   Butler   CB   Connecticut
2009   34   2   Patrick   Chung   S   Oregon
2009   58   2   Sebastian   Vollmer   OL   Houston
2009   97   3   Tyrone   McKenzie   LB   South Florida
2009   83   3   Brandon   Tate   WR   North Carolina
2009   123   4   Rich   Orhnberger   OL   Penn State
2009   170   5   George   Bussey   OL   Louisville
2009   198   6   Jake   Ingram   LS   Hawaii
2009   207   6   Myron   Pryor   DT   Kentucky
2009   232   7   Julian   Edelman   WR   Kent State
2009   234   7   Darryl   Richard   DT   Georgia T

I like chung, but he's unproven, Volmer is a stud. other than that, why was the value in that draft a good thing?


now, 2010, bill obviously hit on the TE picks and devon.

But can someone who argues that Bill's so great because he always trades down for value explain to me why, given what he has done with that "value" above he used?

(remember, merriweather, mayo and mccourty arguably don't count, they actually kept those 1st round picks)

Giving bill value is overated, because, while i know i'll get my patriots card pulled for this...he's not that good of a drafter. not sure why everyone goes nuts when he acquires picks.

Bill's ability to use this "value" he acquires is so overrated it hurts. eventually you have to admit that mabey the scouts are right to have guys rated high and pick one of them instead of going basement diving. Especially when you kinda suck at it like bill does.

[Chris]

Especially where Bill likes to have some veterans and our team is already quite young, especially on defense.

I think this is something that a lot of people are missing.  This team has been developing a ton of defensive players over the last couple of years, and you would have to expect that some more of them are going to continue to step up.

Guys like Cunningham, McCourty, Spikes, Brace, Butler, Chung, Deadrick are all developing young guys.

Many of those guys are going to be better next year.  

I agree that the Pats still need more elite talent, but I just don't think you get that very often late in the first round.  

[crownsy]

So the Pats got the Saints second round pick this year?

Yep, now they have the following picks tomorrow alone.

33, 56, 60, 74 & 90.

And honestly, there's not a huge difference between the late first guys, and the guys you can get in the 2nd/early 3rd. I'm a fan of the trade personally.

see my post below, thats false.

Bill's track record shows he'll likely miss on 2/3 of the 2nd round picks.

[Mean Gerald Green]

Unless they think Ingram is a franchise RB, no point in taking him in the first. I personally like Ryan Williams just as much, and he will be there in the 2nd. You can get good RB's in the 2nd/3rd round, so i'm fine with passing up Ingram. It's likely they can get the same defensive player at 33, that they could have gotten at 28.

Now they have three 2nd's this year, and two firsts next year.

Matt is right. They got solid value and like he says, Ryan Williams is a monster. Trust me, I wanted Ingram too, but this isn't a bad move.

[crownsy]

Especially where Bill likes to have some veterans and our team is already quite young, especially on defense.

I think this is something that a lot of people are missing.  This team has been developing a ton of defensive players over the last couple of years, and you would have to expect that some more of them are going to continue to step up.

Guys like Cunningham, McCourty, Spikes, Brace, Butler, Chung, Deadrick are all developing young guys.

Many of those guys are going to be better next year.  

I agree that the Pats still need more elite talent, but I just don't think you get that very often late in the first round.  

Bill doesn't often get that talent in the later rounds period, and it wasen't to long ago that all those guys above in the 06 and 07 draft were developing guys.

most of them are out of the league now.

I think this current group of young pats has much more potential, obviously, but they could have gotten alot of help and they didn't.

Hopefully Bill has a knock out round tomorrow, but based on his history as a drafter with the browns and jets, and his recored without scotty P, i'll believe it when i see it.

[Chris]

So the Pats got the Saints second round pick this year?

Yep, now they have the following picks tomorrow alone.

33, 56, 60, 74 & 90.

And honestly, there's not a huge difference between the late first guys, and the guys you can get in the 2nd/early 3rd. I'm a fan of the trade personally.

see my post below, thats false.

Bill's track record shows he'll likely miss on 2/3 of the 2nd round picks.

What's your definition of "miss"?

Jackson, and Wheatley were misses, but Chung and Vollmer have been very good, Brace showed a lot more last year, and Butler has been up and down, but certainly hasn't busted.  

edit: also, not sure what your argument is with 2007.  They got a pro bowler at the end of the first round, traded their second and third rounders for pro bowl recievers, and 4th rounders and below are always crap shoots. 

I'll give you 2006 though, no defending that draft.