How many players would you take over James.

[BballTim]

the Celtics went away to some faraway land called "Italy" for their training camp.

  Lol.

[Larry Pistol]

For all of who you say LBJ is the best player in the game, you are plain and simply, wrong. As Michael Felger would say, that is fact not opinion." He's in the top 3 players in the NBA but he's not the best. And in terms of a team player, he might not even be in the top 5. I personally Put Kobe at #1. That is almost undeniable. And then it's a toss-up between Lebron and Durant.

The reason he gets so many points is because he runs AT the basket and coincidentally INTO the defensive players. In the past 6 years, he has been in the top three players in terms of free throw attempts per game every year. CALL ME WHEN HE GETS A MIDRANGE JUMP SHOT. He is a swingman after all, right?

Guys I would not trade straight up for LBJ:
Kobe
Durant
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Deron Williams
Pau Gasol
Dwayne Wade (I'd rather start a team with Wade over LBJ)

[MBunge]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

By problem on offense I mean he forces the team to play a certain way, regardless of whether or not that's the most effective use of its talent.  Playing that way worked spectactularly well in Cleveland the last two seasons, but forcing Dwyane Wade to be Mo Williams and Chris Bosh to Be Anderson Varejao isn't working that well in Miami.

Mike

[BballTim]

Indeed.... I think my basic assertion or point here is that these guys should have had instant success and were expected to win multiple rings and leave no doubt. They were elite guys. Elite guys dominate. They aren't.  

Therefore I question if they are elite.

You made a good point about Malone, Stockton and Barkey at age 25, but I actually think if those guys had played together in this league (just swap out the current little 3 for those guys on the Heat) and I think they'd be crushing a lot of good teams.

  When teams get elite players they build teams around those players that complement those players. The Heat have two elite players and the team isn't comprised of a roster that allows either of them to do what they do best on the court. It's not that James and Wade aren't elite, but they aren't so elite that they can succeed no matter the skillset of the other players on the court.

[indeedproceed]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

By problem on offense I mean he forces the team to play a certain way, regardless of whether or not that's the most effective use of its talent.  Playing that way worked spectactularly well in Cleveland the last two seasons, but forcing Dwyane Wade to be Mo Williams and Chris Bosh to Be Anderson Varejao isn't working that well in Miami.

Mike

That is a judgement I can agree with.

[BballTim]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

By problem on offense I mean he forces the team to play a certain way, regardless of whether or not that's the most effective use of its talent.  Playing that way worked spectactularly well in Cleveland the last two seasons, but forcing Dwyane Wade to be Mo Williams and Chris Bosh to Be Anderson Varejao isn't working that well in Miami.

Mike

  Should LeBron be Mo Williams though? You keep saying that LeBron's forcing Miami to play a certain way. As if Lebron can just play a little differently and everything will mesh. How do you envision Lebron (and/or Wade) changing their games to make things click?

[BballTim]

For all of who you say LBJ is the best player in the game, you are plain and simply, wrong. As Michael Felger would say, that is fact not opinion." He's in the top 3 players in the NBA but he's not the best. And in terms of a team player, he might not even be in the top 5. I personally Put Kobe at #1. That is almost undeniable. And then it's a toss-up between Lebron and Durant.

  I don't think it's undeniable that Kobe's #1. And, while you're putting him on that pedestal, don't forget that he wasn't really seen as a winner until 2009. Before then he was getting a lot of the criticism LeBron is because he'd never led a team to a title, he'd just rode Shaq's coattails.

[indeedproceed]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

By problem on offense I mean he forces the team to play a certain way, regardless of whether or not that's the most effective use of its talent.  Playing that way worked spectactularly well in Cleveland the last two seasons, but forcing Dwyane Wade to be Mo Williams and Chris Bosh to Be Anderson Varejao isn't working that well in Miami.

Mike

  Should LeBron be Mo Williams though? You keep saying that LeBron's forcing Miami to play a certain way. As if Lebron can just play a little differently and everything will mesh. How do you envision Lebron (and/or Wade) changing their games to make things click?

I don't know the answer for that. Think about our (often sputtering and inefficient) offense. Ballhanders go Rondo>KG>Pierce or Rondo>Pierce>KG (in terms of who handles the ball most)...than we have a spot up shooter runnin around like an 11 yr old with ADD trying to avoid lava on the floor and a jolly green giant in the paint waiting to eat.

In Miami LeBron and Wade both only know how to play 1 way...they get the ball, than they try to create. Wade is a more talented scorer than LeBron, but LeBron is a far better passer, so skew the word "create" however you want for the two of them.

Right now that's how the offense goes..one of the two of them gets the ball, and they try t make something happen.

Somehow, they both need to get better with moving without the ball, and they both need to accept that sometimes they're just a cog in the machine, and move the ball along. Without fluidity, that offense won't improve.

[BballTim]

if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

  Because he now has those three locked up for years to come and he has time to make whatever trades and/or free agent acquisition are necessary to build a contender. How would he be better off if he'd refused to sign those players?

[MBunge]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

By problem on offense I mean he forces the team to play a certain way, regardless of whether or not that's the most effective use of its talent.  Playing that way worked spectactularly well in Cleveland the last two seasons, but forcing Dwyane Wade to be Mo Williams and Chris Bosh to Be Anderson Varejao isn't working that well in Miami.

Mike

  Should LeBron be Mo Williams though? You keep saying that LeBron's forcing Miami to play a certain way. As if Lebron can just play a little differently and everything will mesh. How do you envision Lebron (and/or Wade) changing their games to make things click?

If LeBron is supposed to be such a willing and eager distributor of the ball, he should be playing as a true point-foward.  That means setting up at the top of the key or extended elbow and getting his team to run plays that get other guys open shots, focusing on defense and rebounding after that and his own offense last of all.

If LeBron doesn't really have the game to play point-forward, then accept that making the best use of his, Wade's and Bosh's talents is to get the ball in the hand of somebody else to orchestra the offense.

Wade and Bosh have to adjust as well, but I can't see them doing it (especially Wade) unless LeBron leads the way.  And even if they do all that, it's still not going to change the fact their bigs stink on ice.

Mike

[BballTim]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

By problem on offense I mean he forces the team to play a certain way, regardless of whether or not that's the most effective use of its talent.  Playing that way worked spectactularly well in Cleveland the last two seasons, but forcing Dwyane Wade to be Mo Williams and Chris Bosh to Be Anderson Varejao isn't working that well in Miami.

Mike

  Should LeBron be Mo Williams though? You keep saying that LeBron's forcing Miami to play a certain way. As if Lebron can just play a little differently and everything will mesh. How do you envision Lebron (and/or Wade) changing their games to make things click?

I don't know the answer for that. Think about our (often sputtering and inefficient) offense. Ballhanders go Rondo>KG>Pierce or Rondo>Pierce>KG (in terms of who handles the ball most)...than we have a spot up shooter runnin around like an 11 yr old with ADD trying to avoid lava on the floor and a jolly green giant in the paint waiting to eat.

In Miami LeBron and Wade both only know how to play 1 way...they get the ball, than they try to create. Wade is a more talented scorer than LeBron, but LeBron is a far better passer, so skew the word "create" however you want for the two of them.

Right now that's how the offense goes..one of the two of them gets the ball, and they try t make something happen.

Somehow, they both need to get better with moving without the ball, and they both need to accept that sometimes they're just a cog in the machine, and move the ball along. Without fluidity, that offense won't improve.

  If Pierce was a poor spot up shooter and excelled in isolations, how would things work between him and Rondo? Answer: it wouldn't, and Danny would have had to have traded one of them by now. Accepting that they're just cogs in the machine and moving the ball along won't turn either of them into great outside shooters. And even if one of them were to become a very good outside shooter it would free up the other player but the outside shooter would go from being a top 5 or so player to a top 20 or so player. It's not a puzzle with a simple solution.

[Finkelskyhook]

It depends on whether your goal is to win championships or to sell jerseys and fill stands...

The messiah is the modern day Iverson.  A more talented, dynamic, and better marketed version...But the same result.  It's a safe bet that he'll always have a substantial following regardless of how his team does.  It's also a safe bet that like Iverson, he'll always fall short.

Durant, Kobe, Rondo, Williams, and Howard are among several on my list that I'd take over the messiah if my goal was to win a championship.

  If your goal is to win titles, why would you pick Howard over James?

Or Williams for that matter. Has Lebron been surrounded by more talent in Clev than Deron in Utah? I'm skeptical of that. Lebron made those Clev team great on his own.

Then why isn't he making Miami great? And don't even bring that weak Obama "Well they need time to gel" stuff here.

.....lol....With some of the stuff that comes out of the messiah's mouth, you'd think he's reading Obama's teleprompter.

[indeedproceed]

And even if one of them were to become a very good outside shooter it would free up the other player but the outside shooter would go from being a top 5 or so player to a top 20 or so player. It's not a puzzle with a simple solution.

Yes. Maybe they just need to start at the corners and tune everyone else out.

It is true though that we unquestionably saw last season Pierce turn into a drastically different player, yes? Pierce went to the cup maybe 3 times a game last season, before he would go 5 or 6, up to 10 before KG came. I don't know if Pierce changing his game was for Rondo/Perkins or for himself to preserve his body, but it bears noting.

[BballTim]

If LeBron is supposed to be such a willing and eager distributor of the ball, he should be playing as a true point-foward.  That means setting up at the top of the key or extended elbow and getting his team to run plays that get other guys open shots, focusing on defense and rebounding after that and his own offense last of all.

If LeBron doesn't really have the game to play point-forward, then accept that making the best use of his, Wade's and Bosh's talents is to get the ball in the hand of somebody else to orchestra the offense.

Wade and Bosh have to adjust as well, but I can't see them doing it (especially Wade) unless LeBron leads the way.  And even if they do all that, it's still not going to change the fact their bigs stink on ice.

Mike

  So you're taking your best scorer and having him focus on passing, defense and rebounding and looking for his own offense last. You're taking your second best scorer, who's great at scoring when he has the ball in his hands and he's driving to the hoop, and have him run plays to get open and shoot the ball when LeBron passes it to him? It's highly unlikely that will be a top 20 offense in the nba.

[BballTim]

And even if one of them were to become a very good outside shooter it would free up the other player but the outside shooter would go from being a top 5 or so player to a top 20 or so player. It's not a puzzle with a simple solution.

Yes. Maybe they just need to start at the corners and tune everyone else out.

It is true though that we unquestionably saw last season Pierce turn into a drastically different player, yes? Pierce went to the cup maybe 3 times a game last season, before he would go 5 or 6, up to 10 before KG came. I don't know if Pierce changing his game was for Rondo/Perkins or for himself to preserve his body, but it bears noting.

  But PP was able to change his game and still be an effective part of the offense because he's always been a very good outside shooter. He didn't just pick up that skill over the summer.