How many players would you take over James.

[indeedproceed]

And even if one of them were to become a very good outside shooter it would free up the other player but the outside shooter would go from being a top 5 or so player to a top 20 or so player. It's not a puzzle with a simple solution.

Yes. Maybe they just need to start at the corners and tune everyone else out.

It is true though that we unquestionably saw last season Pierce turn into a drastically different player, yes? Pierce went to the cup maybe 3 times a game last season, before he would go 5 or 6, up to 10 before KG came. I don't know if Pierce changing his game was for Rondo/Perkins or for himself to preserve his body, but it bears noting.

  But PP was able to change his game and still be an effective part of the offense because he's always been a very good outside shooter. He didn't just pick up that skill over the summer.

Jason Kidd turned into a viable 3pt shooter..you don't think one of LeBron or Dywane can do that?

EDIT: That's distracting to the argument actually, you're completely right about Pierce. My point was that his game was put the ball on the floor first, and use the shot when they overcompensate for that. Now his game is look for the shot, than put the ball on teh floor when they're playing up on him.

[Fafnir]

Through eight seasons LeBron isn't that much worse than Paul Pierce at three point shooting. He could easily improve that aspect of his game.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as Paul at the step back or pull up jumpers but who knows. He's only 26 years old.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=lqe1b

[MBunge]

If LeBron is supposed to be such a willing and eager distributor of the ball, he should be playing as a true point-foward.  That means setting up at the top of the key or extended elbow and getting his team to run plays that get other guys open shots, focusing on defense and rebounding after that and his own offense last of all.

If LeBron doesn't really have the game to play point-forward, then accept that making the best use of his, Wade's and Bosh's talents is to get the ball in the hand of somebody else to orchestra the offense.

Wade and Bosh have to adjust as well, but I can't see them doing it (especially Wade) unless LeBron leads the way.  And even if they do all that, it's still not going to change the fact their bigs stink on ice.

Mike

  So you're taking your best scorer and having him focus on passing, defense and rebounding and looking for his own offense last. You're taking your second best scorer, who's great at scoring when he has the ball in his hands and he's driving to the hoop, and have him run plays to get open and shoot the ball when LeBron passes it to him? It's highly unlikely that will be a top 20 offense in the nba.

Here's a newsflash for ya.  Sometimes a team's success depends on more than individual players getting their own stats.  And running plays doesn't mean only getting guys jumpshots.

Again, the only interpretation of your comments is that you think Dwyane Wade needs to remake himself into Mo Williams and Chris Bosh needs to become Anderson Varejao.  If that's what has to happen, if the mighty and glorious LeBron can't frickin' function on the basketball court any other way, then he's as much a problem as anything else in Miami.

Mike

[BballTim]

Through eight seasons LeBron isn't that much worse than Paul Pierce at three point shooting. He could easily improve that aspect of his game.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as Paul at the step back or pull up jumpers but who knows. He's only 26 years old.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=lqe1b

  Paul's numbers picked up quite a bit when he was around 30 and that's hardly a rare phenomenon. Do the Heat have a few years to wait for LeBron to improve? I honestly don't see LeBron scoring 24 a game for more than 2 years if it doesn't get him any hardware.

[Fafnir]

Through eight seasons LeBron isn't that much worse than Paul Pierce at three point shooting. He could easily improve that aspect of his game.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as Paul at the step back or pull up jumpers but who knows. He's only 26 years old.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=lqe1b

  Paul's numbers picked up quite a bit when he was around 30 and that's hardly a rare phenomenon. Do the Heat have a few years to wait for LeBron to improve? I honestly don't see LeBron scoring 24 a game for more than 2 years if it doesn't get him any hardware.

We'll see how it goes, but the Heat signed up to create a dynasty. Most teams go through some losing and struggles before they win it all. Even if they don't win in the next two years doesn't mean they can't win a bunch after that.

[BballTim]

If LeBron is supposed to be such a willing and eager distributor of the ball, he should be playing as a true point-foward.  That means setting up at the top of the key or extended elbow and getting his team to run plays that get other guys open shots, focusing on defense and rebounding after that and his own offense last of all.

If LeBron doesn't really have the game to play point-forward, then accept that making the best use of his, Wade's and Bosh's talents is to get the ball in the hand of somebody else to orchestra the offense.

Wade and Bosh have to adjust as well, but I can't see them doing it (especially Wade) unless LeBron leads the way.  And even if they do all that, it's still not going to change the fact their bigs stink on ice.

Mike

  So you're taking your best scorer and having him focus on passing, defense and rebounding and looking for his own offense last. You're taking your second best scorer, who's great at scoring when he has the ball in his hands and he's driving to the hoop, and have him run plays to get open and shoot the ball when LeBron passes it to him? It's highly unlikely that will be a top 20 offense in the nba.

Here's a newsflash for ya.  Sometimes a team's success depends on more than individual players getting their own stats.  And running plays doesn't mean only getting guys jumpshots.

  A little touchy? I'm not talking at all about individual players getting their own stats. I'm questioning the wisdom of trying to win by taking two of the best players in the game and devising an offense where neither of them are utilizing their greatest talents.

Again, the only interpretation of your comments is that you think Dwyane Wade needs to remake himself into Mo Williams and Chris Bosh needs to become Anderson Varejao.  If that's what has to happen, if the mighty and glorious LeBron can't frickin' function on the basketball court any other way, then he's as much a problem as anything else in Miami.

Mike

  How would Bosh becoming Varejao help the situation? I don't know how the only way to interpret my comment is to come to that conclusion because I've never said or implied anything of the sort.

[BballTim]

Through eight seasons LeBron isn't that much worse than Paul Pierce at three point shooting. He could easily improve that aspect of his game.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as Paul at the step back or pull up jumpers but who knows. He's only 26 years old.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=lqe1b

  Paul's numbers picked up quite a bit when he was around 30 and that's hardly a rare phenomenon. Do the Heat have a few years to wait for LeBron to improve? I honestly don't see LeBron scoring 24 a game for more than 2 years if it doesn't get him any hardware.

We'll see how it goes, but the Heat signed up to create a dynasty. Most teams go through some losing and struggles before they win it all. Even if they don't win in the next two years doesn't mean they can't win a bunch after that.

  Those guys signed up to create a dynasty that would start with a title in year one. think back to Bosh and the other two preening around on that stage during their introduction. They had no plans whatsoever of building towards a title push in year 3 or 4.

[Fafnir]

Through eight seasons LeBron isn't that much worse than Paul Pierce at three point shooting. He could easily improve that aspect of his game.

I don't think he'll ever be as good as Paul at the step back or pull up jumpers but who knows. He's only 26 years old.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=lqe1b

  Paul's numbers picked up quite a bit when he was around 30 and that's hardly a rare phenomenon. Do the Heat have a few years to wait for LeBron to improve? I honestly don't see LeBron scoring 24 a game for more than 2 years if it doesn't get him any hardware.

We'll see how it goes, but the Heat signed up to create a dynasty. Most teams go through some losing and struggles before they win it all. Even if they don't win in the next two years doesn't mean they can't win a bunch after that.

  Those guys signed up to create a dynasty that would start with a title in year one. think back to Bosh and the other two preening around on that stage during their introduction. They had no plans whatsoever of building towards a title push in year 3 or 4.

No they didn't, but they signed long term deals so they'll be sticking together for three years at least before it gets blown up imo.

[MBunge]

 A little touchy? I'm not talking at all about individual players getting their own stats. I'm questioning the wisdom of trying to win by taking two of the best players in the game and devising an offense where neither of them are utilizing their greatest talents.

  How would Bosh becoming Varejao help the situation? I don't know how the only way to interpret my comment is to come to that conclusion because I've never said or implied anything of the sort.

1.  It gets frustrating arguing with someone who never says anything more substantive than "they need to build around LeBron" and then craps all over anything else.  "Building around LeBron" is not a strategy.  It's not even a philosophy.  It's just aimless wankery.  What Miami is doing is not working right now.  I'm suggesting how they might make it work.  You're just kissing LeBron's butt.

2.  Thanks for acknowledging you DO think Dwyane Wade, a scoring champion and a guy who's led his team to an NBA title, needs to become Mo Williams in order to accomodate the mighty and glorious LeBron.

Mike

[KobeGotRondoD]

i would trade our big 3 for LBJ.  having a team of rondo-nate-lebron-JO-shaq will do enough damage.

[More Banners]

Thinking back over the last few years, I'm amazed at how many players in various versions of a "supporting cast" were shuffled in and out of Cleveland in a continuous effort to "build around Lebron." 

Some were better than others, but it always seemed to me that whatever player when there, he got worse.  Playing next to Lebron not only didn't make them better, they seemed worse.  I haven't looked at numbers, but I thought it was true from day one.

And that's why I'd take quite a few players over Lebron.  He has the talent to be the #1 guy, but it just hasn't worked with multiple combinations of players over multiple years.  If I'm on to something, it's a pattern not to be ignored.

[Fafnir]

Some were better than others, but it always seemed to me that whatever player when there, he got worse.  Playing next to Lebron not only didn't make them better, they seemed worse.  I haven't looked at numbers, but I thought it was true from day one.

This isn't true at least in one area, 3 point shooting. A lot of players have posted career shooting years when feasting on the open looks LeBron gave them.

[Prof. Clutch]

Honestly, I enjoy disliking Lebron as much as the next guy, but you'd be crazy to not take him as one of the first players to start a team with.

He may be egotistical, but he's one of the top three most talented players in the league.

[More Banners]

Some were better than others, but it always seemed to me that whatever player when there, he got worse.  Playing next to Lebron not only didn't make them better, they seemed worse.  I haven't looked at numbers, but I thought it was true from day one.

This isn't true at least in one area, 3 point shooting. A lot of players have posted career shooting years when feasting on the open looks LeBron gave them.

This is true, but it is also a symptom of the main problem:

Players that were talented triple-threat players became stand-around, spot-up shooters.  They eventually found a way to win in the regular season, but (it shouldn't be a surprise) seemed completely unprepared and inadequate when the playoffs rolled around.  Lebron didn't bring out the talents in other players, he minimized them.  That's my take, though I'd love to see numbers.

[BballTim]

 A little touchy? I'm not talking at all about individual players getting their own stats. I'm questioning the wisdom of trying to win by taking two of the best players in the game and devising an offense where neither of them are utilizing their greatest talents.

  How would Bosh becoming Varejao help the situation? I don't know how the only way to interpret my comment is to come to that conclusion because I've never said or implied anything of the sort.

1.  It gets frustrating arguing with someone who never says anything more substantive than "they need to build around LeBron" and then craps all over anything else.  "Building around LeBron" is not a strategy.  It's not even a philosophy.  It's just aimless wankery.  What Miami is doing is not working right now.  I'm suggesting how they might make it work.  You're just kissing LeBron's butt.

  "Building around LeBron" is a strategy, just like "Building around Jordan" or "Building around Howard" or "Building around Iverson" was. It must be upsetting that not everyone agrees with your "Have LeBron do something that minimizes his skillset" plan, but really. You're suggesting how it might work, and I'm explaining to you why your suggestion will make them worse. Having James and Wade both play away from their strengths isn't likely to work better than what you're seeing now.

2.  Thanks for acknowledging you DO think Dwyane Wade, a scoring champion and a guy who's led his team to an NBA title, needs to become Mo Williams in order to accomodate the mighty and glorious LeBron.

Mike

  Sadly, this one one of those times where what I posted was what I meant, not what you're pretending I said. You said "the only interpretation of your comments is that you think Dwyane Wade needs to remake himself into Mo Williams and Chris Bosh needs to become Anderson Varejao". I don't know that I've said anything in Bosh's role in the offense, and I'm positive that I never said that having someone play like Varejao would help anything. How that is the only way to interpret my comments is beyond me.

  Also, I didn't say "I DO think Dwyane Wade, a scoring champion and a guy who's led his team to an NBA title, needs to become Mo Williams in order to accomodate the mighty and glorious LeBron". In fact, I'd say that your master plan (have LeBron dribble while players run plays to get open shots) would make Wade into Mo Williams as much as anything I've written.