How many players would you take over James.

[Eja117]

Where were the experts in the summer warning that Bosh is a bad interior defender and the Heat would have a very hard time in the playoffs because of poor depth? They didn't exist.

Not true

http://cavaliers.basketball-news-update.com/how-does-the-miami-heats-front-line-compare-with-other-elite-nba-teams/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/25/how-good-will-the-heat-be-on-defense/

http://basketballoutsider.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/interior-defense-where-this-super-miami-heat-team-is-still-incredibly-vulnerable/

http://www.docsports.com/2010/maimi-heat-nba-predictions-big-three-defense-013.html

That's just from a 2 min google search.

I said experts.  Not random bloggers.

[indeedproceed]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

  The Celts were pretty bad before Bird came, weren't they?

76- won finals
77- lost in semis
78- did poorly, drafted bird
79- did poorly again
80- Bird played

Kinda like the Heat, right? Lebron and Bosh are there now. Let's see if they can do at age 26ish what Bird did at about 23

LeBron's already did what Bird did at age 23. He's lost in the conference finals before.

On a side note, why are you doing this? You think I like this? You think I enjoy defending LeBron? What's your game here, hasBRO?

They're 12-8 through 20 games, and 4 of their top 6 rotation players from last season are gone. On top of that, they have had little to no practice time as a unit coming into the season.

The 2005-2006 Heat were 10-10 through 20 games and they still won a chip, these guys have PLENTY of time to turn it around, and any judgements besides "It makes my tummy happy when the Heat lose" are incredibly premature.

[indeedproceed]

Where were the experts in the summer warning that Bosh is a bad interior defender and the Heat would have a very hard time in the playoffs because of poor depth? They didn't exist.

Not true

http://cavaliers.basketball-news-update.com/how-does-the-miami-heats-front-line-compare-with-other-elite-nba-teams/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/25/how-good-will-the-heat-be-on-defense/

http://basketballoutsider.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/interior-defense-where-this-super-miami-heat-team-is-still-incredibly-vulnerable/

http://www.docsports.com/2010/maimi-heat-nba-predictions-big-three-defense-013.html

That's just from a 2 min google search.

I said experts.  Not random bloggers.

Look, everyone said the Heat would do well..nobody, and I mean nobody with any kind of credential thought they'd do this bad, but everyone agreed their biggest flaw was interior defense. They just thought that the Heat's perimeter players would be good enough to compensate.

Charlie Rosen (who I would never call an expert on anything), 7/23/2010

Miami’s overall defense is full of holes — especially in the middle. Ilgauskas, Magloire and Anthony add up to 21 feet of nothing. If Haslem is forced to play too many minutes at center, he’ll be ground down to guard-size by the playoffs.

But Miami didn't trade for a KG, and on the current roster, only James and Wade ever made the All-Defensive team (both made it twice, with Wade being named to the second team). Bosh was a member of some atrocious defensive teams in Toronto.

What the Heat could use is a Bruce Bowen-type, someone handed the responsibility of doing the dirty work and being a tough guy and enforcer. But only Udonis Haslem comes close to that definition. Does Joel Anthony become that player? Mike Miller? (Just kidding.) And with the possible exception of Anthony, there's no shot blocker anywhere. You hardly expect such senior citizens as Juwan Howard and Zydrunas Ilgauskas to get enough minutes to be a defensive presence, let alone make a defensive impact.

Defense will come into play when the rivalry between Miami and Orlando hikes up a few hundred degrees. Sure, the Magic will certainly scramble to find ways to play the Big Three straight up. Just the same, who's going to do anything against Dwight Howard, except collect fouls? (Answer: nobody.)

The topic of interior defense might crop up a time or two in games against the Celtics (KG) and Lakers (Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol), perhaps the only other teams standing in the way between Miami and the Larry O'Brien trophy.

In reality, until the Heat luck into a Ben Wallace-type down the line, defense will be conducted by committee, each player doing his part to cover for one of the few Heat concerns this season.

"It's about how we perform as a team," Bosh said, "despite all the attention given to individuals."

We'll remember that when Orlando is spoon feeding Howard in the low post, and Kobe is licking his lips.

[Eja117]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison.  

  The Celts were pretty bad before Bird came, weren't they?

76- won finals
77- lost in semis
78- did poorly, drafted bird
79- did poorly again
80- Bird played

Kinda like the Heat, right? Lebron and Bosh are there now. Let's see if they can do at age 26ish what Bird did at about 23

LeBron's already did what Bird did at age 23. He's lost in the conference finals before.

On a side note, why are you doing this? You think I like this? You think I enjoy defending LeBron? What's your game here, hasBRO?

They're 12-8 through 20 games, and 4 of their top 6 rotation players from last season are gone. On top of that, they have had little to no practice time as a unit coming into the season.

The 2005-2006 Heat were 10-10 through 20 games and they still won a chip, these guys have PLENTY of time to turn it around, and any judgements besides "It makes my tummy happy when the Heat lose" are incredibly premature.

Before the season, how good of an idea did it

Bird's first year in the league the Celts went from 29-53 to the league's best regular season record and went to the Conference finals.  Did Lebron do that his first year in the league?

True that Lebron was 18ish in comparison. He was also playing in an expanded watered down league.  

Did Bird ever join the top two other players in the league and go 12-8.

What do you think would have happened if Bird had joined Magic and whoever the 3rd best guy in the league was?  Dominique? McHale?  They'd have gone undefeated.

I agree they have time to turn it around, but they shouldn't have to.

And these guys have had plenty of time to get to know each other. They had the summer just like the Big 3 Celts.  They also had time on the Olympic team and time on all star teams.

[Eja117]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

Duncan is also and excellent comparison.  And Shaq isn't far off either

[BballTim]

But you should be able to throw together elite players and win.  These guys were supposed to be elite.  The world expected instant success. Not the problems they've had. People shouldn't be revisionist about it.   

  This isn't revisionism, it was fairly predictable. There are probably a lot more from me and plenty from others, but here are a few of the things I said over the summer:

  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=39904.msg803038#msg803038

  "It's also worth noting that the games of PP/RA/KG worked well together, while James and Wade are too similar to complement each other on the offensive end."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=40243.msg809439#msg809439

  "I don't think that it's a lock that the team won't have chemistry issues. It's one thing to say that James and Wade are great players. It's another thing to say that their games complement each other's well. When one of them has the ball on offense the value of the other is significantly diminished. They might  (and probably will) be great together but there's a good possibility the sum will be less than the parts."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41922.msg853040#msg853040

  "It's not so much whether there's friction between Wade and James as whether their styles of play work well together. They're both used to having the ball in their hands almost every play, and creating their own offense off of the dribble. If LeBron dominates the ball Wade is much less effective. If Wade dominates the ball LeBron is less effective."

[Eja117]

Indeed.... I think my basic assertion or point here is that these guys should have had instant success and were expected to win multiple rings and leave no doubt. They were elite guys. Elite guys dominate. They aren't.  

Therefore I question if they are elite.

You made a good point about Malone, Stockton and Barkey at age 25, but I actually think if those guys had played together in this league (just swap out the current little 3 for those guys on the Heat) and I think they'd be crushing a lot of good teams.

[BballTim]

Where were the experts in the summer warning that Bosh is a bad interior defender and the Heat would have a very hard time in the playoffs because of poor depth? They didn't exist.

Not true

http://cavaliers.basketball-news-update.com/how-does-the-miami-heats-front-line-compare-with-other-elite-nba-teams/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/25/how-good-will-the-heat-be-on-defense/

http://basketballoutsider.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/interior-defense-where-this-super-miami-heat-team-is-still-incredibly-vulnerable/

http://www.docsports.com/2010/maimi-heat-nba-predictions-big-three-defense-013.html

That's just from a 2 min google search.

I said experts.  Not random bloggers.

  You said experts, but you probably meant idiots that work for espn or other outlets.

[Eja117]

But you should be able to throw together elite players and win.  These guys were supposed to be elite.  The world expected instant success. Not the problems they've had. People shouldn't be revisionist about it.   

  This isn't revisionism, it was fairly predictable. There are probably a lot more from me and plenty from others, but here are a few of the things I said over the summer:

  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=39904.msg803038#msg803038

  "It's also worth noting that the games of PP/RA/KG worked well together, while James and Wade are too similar to complement each other on the offensive end."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=40243.msg809439#msg809439

  "I don't think that it's a lock that the team won't have chemistry issues. It's one thing to say that James and Wade are great players. It's another thing to say that their games complement each other's well. When one of them has the ball on offense the value of the other is significantly diminished. They might  (and probably will) be great together but there's a good possibility the sum will be less than the parts."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41922.msg853040#msg853040

  "It's not so much whether there's friction between Wade and James as whether their styles of play work well together. They're both used to having the ball in their hands almost every play, and creating their own offense off of the dribble. If LeBron dominates the ball Wade is much less effective. If Wade dominates the ball LeBron is less effective."

Hey even I made the top ten list of why they might not win...but I'm not an expert and if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

[Eja117]

Where were the experts in the summer warning that Bosh is a bad interior defender and the Heat would have a very hard time in the playoffs because of poor depth? They didn't exist.

Not true

http://cavaliers.basketball-news-update.com/how-does-the-miami-heats-front-line-compare-with-other-elite-nba-teams/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/25/how-good-will-the-heat-be-on-defense/

http://basketballoutsider.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/interior-defense-where-this-super-miami-heat-team-is-still-incredibly-vulnerable/

http://www.docsports.com/2010/maimi-heat-nba-predictions-big-three-defense-013.html

That's just from a 2 min google search.

I said experts.  Not random bloggers.

  You said experts, but you probably meant idiots that work for espn or other outlets.

EXACTLY!!!! I remember the greatest former players criticising what they did, but not saying it wouldn't work

[PosImpos]

Nobody, guys.  If any of us are truly being honest, the answer is nobody.  LeBron is the best player on the planet and will be for the foreseeable future.

[BballTim]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

Duncan is also and excellent comparison.  And Shaq isn't far off either

  Duncan and Shaq were dominant players and among the best of all time, but to suggest either of them had the wide variety of skills that Bird had is silly.

[indeedproceed]

Bird's first year in the league the Celts went from 29-53 to the league's best regular season record and went to the Conference finals.  Did Lebron do that his first year in the league?

No, but he went to the Finals before he was 23. Also, who is comparing LeBron to Bird (actually funny story..Daily Dime at ESPN did just that a year ago)?

True that Lebron was 18ish in comparison. He was also playing in an expanded watered down league.  

I'm not sure how this was relevant. Bird was playing in a league that was in real danger of going under, with stars that looked like anyone in Boogie Nights in the last 45 mins of the movie because of all the cocaine use, and he played in a league that lacked the machine that is AAU ball and modern college athletics. The door, like a lot of people towards the end of boogie nights, swings both ways.

Did Bird ever join the top two other players in the league and go 12-8.

What do you think would have happened if Bird had joined Magic and whoever the 3rd best guy in the league was?  Dominique? McHale?  They'd have gone undefeated.

Actually, bringing up Nique is a great point. LeBron James is like Nique's ego with Magic's talents...he cannot fathom sharing the spotlight or the ball.

I agree they have time to turn it around, but they shouldn't have to.

And these guys have had plenty of time to get to know each other. They had the summer just like the Big 3 Celts.  They also had time on the Olympic team and time on all star teams.

I don't think any of this holds any water. the Celtics went away to some faraway land called "Italy" for their training camp..got out of the spotlight because they needed instant chemistry. The Heat filmed a TV special..and Wade still isn't 100% healthy from the injury he had that forced him to miss the entire preseason. On top of that they're without their 4th and 5th best players.

[indeedproceed]

Indeed.... I think my basic assertion or point here is that these guys should have had instant success and were expected to win multiple rings and leave no doubt. They were elite guys. Elite guys dominate. They aren't. 

Therefore I question if they are elite.

You made a good point about Malone, Stockton and Barkey at age 25, but I actually think if those guys had played together in this league (just swap out the current little 3 for those guys on the Heat) and I think they'd be crushing a lot of good teams.

Well I mean..what we're arguing is completely subjective. LeBron's track record is pretty unimpeachable that he is both a successful and elite talent. He's done more with less than anyone in the NBA consistently for the last 4 years.

It is boggling why he is now doing so much less with so much more, but think about what you're saying...either you're saying the team that the Heat beat by almost 30 points last night is a heck of a lot better than anyone ever realized, or what I'm saying is true..that they're kind of sitting around in Miami confused and frustrated..but that it will be a temporary state.

Its kinda like if you handed a monkey a handgun and waited. It'll be a while before he figures out where the safety is and how to fire it, but eventually he'll decide how to point and make it go boom.

[BballTim]

But you should be able to throw together elite players and win.  These guys were supposed to be elite.  The world expected instant success. Not the problems they've had. People shouldn't be revisionist about it.   

  This isn't revisionism, it was fairly predictable. There are probably a lot more from me and plenty from others, but here are a few of the things I said over the summer:

  http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=39904.msg803038#msg803038

  "It's also worth noting that the games of PP/RA/KG worked well together, while James and Wade are too similar to complement each other on the offensive end."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=40243.msg809439#msg809439

  "I don't think that it's a lock that the team won't have chemistry issues. It's one thing to say that James and Wade are great players. It's another thing to say that their games complement each other's well. When one of them has the ball on offense the value of the other is significantly diminished. They might  (and probably will) be great together but there's a good possibility the sum will be less than the parts."

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=41922.msg853040#msg853040

  "It's not so much whether there's friction between Wade and James as whether their styles of play work well together. They're both used to having the ball in their hands almost every play, and creating their own offense off of the dribble. If LeBron dominates the ball Wade is much less effective. If Wade dominates the ball LeBron is less effective."

Hey even I made the top ten list of why they might not win...but I'm not an expert and if it was so predictable why did the Heat pursue this?   Why wasn't Pat Riley like "IIII don't knooowww.  Putting these guys together might be a mistake. I'm not sure this combination can really win"

  You seem to have gone from "the world expected instant success, don't try to be revisionist" to "I'm no expert and even I knew they might not win" in the blink of an eye.