How many players would you take over James.

[Eja117]

Then why isn't he making Miami great? And don't even bring that weak John McCain "Well they need time to gel" stuff here.

There are 3 reasons

1) No interior defense or rebounding. Andersen Varejao has long been the second most important Cavalier.

2) Poor offensive planning, poor offensive execution, or poor coaching communication of a plan

3) They really do need more time.

Well wait a second.  Isn't Bosh better than Varejao?  And isn't Spoelstra at least as good as Lebron's last coach?


And if they are executing and poorly and need all this time, doesn't that mean they might not be such great players?  I mean what have any of these guys done?  Bosh = horrible teams, Lebron = NO post season success....Wade = Without Shaq slipped to the lottery instantly where they picked 2nd overall

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

How many seasons did Pierce KG and Ray play in the NBA before they were successful by your definition?

The instant they got together, which is what I expected from the Heat more or less

[wdleehi]

Then why isn't he making Miami great? And don't even bring that weak John McCain "Well they need time to gel" stuff here.

There are 3 reasons

1) No interior defense or rebounding. Andersen Varejao has long been the second most important Cavalier.

2) Poor offensive planning, poor offensive execution, or poor coaching communication of a plan

3) They really do need more time.

Well wait a second.  Isn't Bosh better than Varejao?  And isn't Spoelstra at least as good as Lebron's last coach?


And if they are executing and poorly and need all this time, doesn't that mean they might not be such great players?  I mean what have any of these guys done?  Bosh = horrible teams, Lebron = NO post season success....Wade = Without Shaq slipped to the lottery instantly where they picked 2nd overall

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

How many seasons did Pierce KG and Ray play in the NBA before they were successful by your definition?

The instant they got together, which is what I expected from the Heat more or less

So, 10 years, 12years and 13 years?


And when they came together, they were not surrounded by a joke of a team.  And their talent actually fit together. 




And did I miss this years playoffs already?  Who won? 


Hard to be critical of team's playoff run when the playoffs haven't even come close to starting. 



Lebron had more success by himself in the playoffs (made it to the NBA finals) then the  Celtics stars did by themselves. 

He is on a flawed team that is only 3 games behind the Celtics.  That is not a lot. 

[BballTim]

2.  How many times to we have to see LeBron playing exactly the same way he did in Cleveland before we realize that he's the problem on offense?

  Cleveland was 4th in offense in 08-09, 6th in 09-10, and are currently 28th in offense. Are we sure that LeBron is the problem on offense?

[indeedproceed]

Well wait a second.  Isn't Bosh better than Varejao?  And isn't Spoelstra at least as good as Lebron's last coach?

Bosh is a better player than Andersen Varejao, but Andersen Varejao is 2 or 3 times the defender than Chris Bosh is. When Big Z at age 36 playing 17.9 minutes per night, is your best and most physical interior defender, a pretty big hole is exposed. Bigger than anyone thought.

And regarding Spolestra...I wrote this last night:

EDIT: This is also the reason why Spolestra is completely the wrong coach for him. Spolestra might be a very capable and insightful coach in basketball matters, but I will guarantee LeBron will never respect or accept him. It seems like Spolestra's natural inclination is to command LeBron, and that would only work if LeBron thought he was worthy, and Spolestra has neither the track record of success as a coach or as a player to achieve worth in LeBron's eyes.

And that's why I think we'll lose Doc Rivers in the end after the big 3 are gone. Doc is one of only a handful of coaches that could relate to LeBron on a personal level, as well as possessing the track record to prove his example should be followed. Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, and maybe on the outside chance Avery Johnson or Byron Scott are the others.

And if they are executing and poorly and need all this time, doesn't that mean they might not be such great players?  I mean what have any of these guys done?  Bosh = horrible teams, Lebron = NO post season success....Wade = Without Shaq slipped to the lottery instantly where they picked 2nd overall

I'd be interested to see how you think of Karl Malone and John Stockton, or Charles Barkley..oh any other player who never won a chip..than see how good they did ages 18-25 and compare them to LeBron, Wade and Bosh in the same timeframe. These guys are elite talent.

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

Pierce KG and Ray are different stories than Bird and Magic.

I don't have a witty comeback for either, but I also don't think anyone believes (any longer) LeBron is another Bird or Magic.

Of course, LeBron has not had Kareem, Worthys and the solid pieces like Cooper, Scott, etc...the Lakers and the Celtics had the stars AND the pieces...right now the Heat only have the stars. They'll get the team, and they'll figure out how to use their weapons eventually. Hopefully not for another two years..but eventually.

[guava_wrench]

Then why isn't he making Miami great? And don't even bring that weak John McCain "Well they need time to gel" stuff here.

There are 3 reasons

1) No interior defense or rebounding. Andersen Varejao has long been the second most important Cavalier.

2) Poor offensive planning, poor offensive execution, or poor coaching communication of a plan

3) They really do need more time.

Well wait a second.  Isn't Bosh better than Varejao?  And isn't Spoelstra at least as good as Lebron's last coach?

And if they are executing and poorly and need all this time, doesn't that mean they might not be such great players?  I mean what have any of these guys done?  Bosh = horrible teams, Lebron = NO post season success....Wade = Without Shaq slipped to the lottery instantly where they picked 2nd overall

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

No. Pierce, KG and Ray had less success than Lebron until they hit their 30s. You are waaaaaay off.

Lebron brought his team to the finals. What did Pierce, KG and Ray do before the age of 30? And who were Lebron's teammates when he went to the finals?

You are selectively filtering events to jam into your preconceived notions.

You also seem desperate to find a line of reasoning that will work. If Bosh and Wade are as bad as you say they are, then why would you blame Lebron for his failure to win on a team that is barren apart from those 3 players? Add the fact that their 4th and fifth best players, Miller and Haslem, are out injured.

It is pretty obvious that it is easier to integrate a catch and shoot 32 year old, a slashing-scoring 3o year old, and a defensive minded 31 year old than it is to integrate Lebron and Wade, who are best individually utilized by running the offense through them.

More significantly, the Heat are something like 12-8. I'm pretty sure teams have won championships with worse starts.

Magic and Bird had success early. Jordan didn't. So what's the point?

[BballTim]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

[wdleehi]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

[BballTim]

And if they are executing and poorly and need all this time, doesn't that mean they might not be such great players?  I mean what have any of these guys done?  Bosh = horrible teams, Lebron = NO post season success....Wade = Without Shaq slipped to the lottery instantly where they picked 2nd overall

  You can't just throw together any collection of good players and win. You need players who's games complement each other's games, and the Heat don't have that.

[BballTim]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

  The Celts were pretty bad before Bird came, weren't they?

[indeedproceed]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

  The Celts were pretty bad before Bird came, weren't they?

76- won finals
77- lost in semis
78- did poorly, drafted bird
79- did poorly again
80- Bird played

[Eja117]

And if they are executing and poorly and need all this time, doesn't that mean they might not be such great players?  I mean what have any of these guys done?  Bosh = horrible teams, Lebron = NO post season success....Wade = Without Shaq slipped to the lottery instantly where they picked 2nd overall

  You can't just throw together any collection of good players and win. You need players who's games complement each other's games, and the Heat don't have that.

I may agree with your statement you can't just throw together "good" players and win instantly.

But you should be able to throw together elite players and win.  These guys were supposed to be elite.  The world expected instant success. Not the problems they've had. People shouldn't be revisionist about it.   
So I guess I'm saying maybe they aren't elite.  One would think they'd have gone ten games without people saying they need to trade Bosh.  Where were the experts in the summer warning that Bosh is a bad interior defender and the Heat would have a very hard time in the playoffs because of poor depth? They didn't exist.

[Eja117]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

I should have said Pierce, KG, and Ray had instant success as soon as they came together. It's what I meant to say.  Obviously Lebron had way more success than all those guys at the age they were

[LB3533]

Maybe Durant, but that's about it.

Nah, nevermind, my answer is zero.

[indeedproceed]

Where were the experts in the summer warning that Bosh is a bad interior defender and the Heat would have a very hard time in the playoffs because of poor depth? They didn't exist.

Not true

http://cavaliers.basketball-news-update.com/how-does-the-miami-heats-front-line-compare-with-other-elite-nba-teams/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/25/how-good-will-the-heat-be-on-defense/

http://basketballoutsider.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/interior-defense-where-this-super-miami-heat-team-is-still-incredibly-vulnerable/

http://www.docsports.com/2010/maimi-heat-nba-predictions-big-three-defense-013.html

That's just from a 2 min google search.

[Eja117]

Bird and Magic had instant success and so did Pierce, KG, and Ray

  The big three didn't find "instant success" until the were in their 30s. And how many players besides Magic and Bird came into the league in the last 30+ years with skill sets as strong and versatile as those two? I'm thinking zero.

And join teams that had that level of talent?



Duncan is the closest comparison. 

  The Celts were pretty bad before Bird came, weren't they?

76- won finals
77- lost in semis
78- did poorly, drafted bird
79- did poorly again
80- Bird played

Kinda like the Heat, right? Lebron and Bosh are there now. Let's see if they can do at age 26ish what Bird did at about 23