Celtics will regret not re-signing Tony

[GreenFaith1819]

Bball - C'mon Now, let's be serious..

Man to Man? There is no way in the world that I couldn't be any clearer to you than the last couple of days.

You are being facetious, plain and simple. I've ignored it to this point.

I have been one of TA's most vocal supporters on here, even to the point of ridicule. As one who treasures the art of defense, Tony Allen is one of the best players in the NBA to me.

But TA certainly has his deficiencies, which I don't recall you even acknowledging. He is not perfect, even on Defense, by any stretch.

If TA somehow came back to Boston tomorrow, I know I'd welcome him with open arms. But he has his own agenda now, and evidently he had his own agenda back when he talked to DA in July.

[BballTim]

Also, for those who think that Tony was a major factor in containing Kobe, here's his +/- for the Lakers series:

Game 7:  -9
Game 6: -10
Game 5: -1
Game 4: +4
Game 3: -5
Game 2: +3
Game 1: -11

Overall:  -29

Plus-minus isn't a fool-proof stat, but I think that if Tony was as good as some are saying, his positive impact would be a little more apparent.

During the post-season, Tony was by far last on the team in +/-, at -12.  The next lowest was -1.  Tony was also 4th worst on the team in the regular season, at -28 over the course of the season.

Those stats don't mean that Tony is a useless player.  However, I think they do show that his positive impact is not as good as some are suggesting.

  Those stats don't show that TA didn't contain Kobe. By my count, in game 1, Kobe got 12 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in the game, and 18 in his other 22 minutes. In game 6, he got (I think) about 6 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in and 20 in his other 23 minutes. 18 points in 34 minutes against Tony vs 38 points in his other 46 minutes. I don't think "Tony was a -21 in those games" reflects that.

[BballTim]

Mark my post - we won't lose to LA or MIA, just based off of TA choosing to go to MEM.

  SO if we lose to Miami or LA, it won't be because of Kobe or Wade or LeBron?

GF didn't say that, and you know it. 
 

  Apparently not, because he seems to be saying that it makes no difference who guards them, they'll still have the same amount of success on offense.

It seems an awful lot like you're putting words in people's mouth to me.  I see GF saying that Tony didn't have the impact that you think he did, but I don't see GF saying that individual defense is irrelevant.

  IMO "And if Lebron and Wade go off for the point total you are forecasting, then it would've happened with TA, Michael Cooper, or whomever" seems to strongly imply that they'd get their points no matter who was guarding them. You seem to be reading that differently.

[BballTim]

Bball - C'mon Now, let's be serious..

Man to Man? There is no way in the world that I couldn't be any clearer to you than the last couple of days.

You are being facetious, plain and simple. I've ignored it to this point.

But TA certainly has his deficiencies, which I don't recall you even acknowledging. He is not perfect, even on Defense, by any stretch.

  I've agreed that TA has a bad outside shot. I've agreed that he's something of a liability on offense (although I dispute that Delonte will be potent enough on offense to insure that Paul will never be doubled by Delonte's man). I'd even agree that he's been known to bite a little hard on pump fakes.

[kozlodoev]

(although I dispute that Delonte will be potent enough on offense to insure that Paul will never be doubled by Delonte's man)

You're not going to stop teams from double-teaming. Teams doubled off of Ray Allen last season, for what it's worth. The issue here is making them pay, and I think West will definitely be potent enough to do this when defenses sag off of him.

[Witch-King]

(although I dispute that Delonte will be potent enough on offense to insure that Paul will never be doubled by Delonte's man)

You're not going to stop teams from double-teaming. Teams doubled off of Ray Allen last season, for what it's worth. The issue here is making them pay, and I think West will definitely be potent enough to do this when defenses sag off of him.

The Celtics are one of the best teams when it comes to passing the ball so it almost seems unreasonable to try and double-team Paul Pierce while Ray Allen is on the floor since both players are exceptional 3pt shooters and Rondo is near the top of the league in assists. You are also right about Delonte being able to punish the double team as well since he is an above average shooter who passes well.

[More Banners]

Also, for those who think that Tony was a major factor in containing Kobe, here's his +/- for the Lakers series:

Game 7:  -9
Game 6: -10
Game 5: -1
Game 4: +4
Game 3: -5
Game 2: +3
Game 1: -11

Overall:  -29

Plus-minus isn't a fool-proof stat, but I think that if Tony was as good as some are saying, his positive impact would be a little more apparent.

During the post-season, Tony was by far last on the team in +/-, at -12.  The next lowest was -1.  Tony was also 4th worst on the team in the regular season, at -28 over the course of the season.

Those stats don't mean that Tony is a useless player.  However, I think they do show that his positive impact is not as good as some are suggesting.

  Those stats don't show that TA didn't contain Kobe. By my count, in game 1, Kobe got 12 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in the game, and 18 in his other 22 minutes. In game 6, he got (I think) about 6 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in and 20 in his other 23 minutes. 18 points in 34 minutes against Tony vs 38 points in his other 46 minutes. I don't think "Tony was a -21 in those games" reflects that.

You are correct that +/- doesn't show that TA didn't contain Kobe, but it shows with incredible clarity that, in games 1, 6, and 7, while he was on the court (only limited minutes), the team was outscored.  This adds some weight to the argument that his defense, good though it is, does not compensate for his offense, as the team is outscored, sometimes by double digits, in the short time he was on the court.  I don't think we'll have that problem this year, and I think not having TA will be part of the reason why.

[moiso]

Also, for those who think that Tony was a major factor in containing Kobe, here's his +/- for the Lakers series:

Game 7:  -9
Game 6: -10
Game 5: -1
Game 4: +4
Game 3: -5
Game 2: +3
Game 1: -11

Overall:  -29

Plus-minus isn't a fool-proof stat, but I think that if Tony was as good as some are saying, his positive impact would be a little more apparent.

During the post-season, Tony was by far last on the team in +/-, at -12.  The next lowest was -1.  Tony was also 4th worst on the team in the regular season, at -28 over the course of the season.

Those stats don't mean that Tony is a useless player.  However, I think they do show that his positive impact is not as good as some are suggesting.

  Those stats don't show that TA didn't contain Kobe. By my count, in game 1, Kobe got 12 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in the game, and 18 in his other 22 minutes. In game 6, he got (I think) about 6 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in and 20 in his other 23 minutes. 18 points in 34 minutes against Tony vs 38 points in his other 46 minutes. I don't think "Tony was a -21 in those games" reflects that.

You are correct that +/- doesn't show that TA didn't contain Kobe, but it shows with incredible clarity that, in games 1, 6, and 7, while he was on the court (only limited minutes), the team was outscored.  This adds some weight to the argument that his defense, good though it is, does not compensate for his offense, as the team is outscored, sometimes by double digits, in the short time he was on the court.  I don't think we'll have that problem this year, and I think not having TA will be part of the reason why.

True, but to pick 3 random games out of seven doesn't prove much.  I could pick 3 games that make Ray Allen look like Orien Greene.

[BballTim]

Also, for those who think that Tony was a major factor in containing Kobe, here's his +/- for the Lakers series:

Game 7:  -9
Game 6: -10
Game 5: -1
Game 4: +4
Game 3: -5
Game 2: +3
Game 1: -11

Overall:  -29

Plus-minus isn't a fool-proof stat, but I think that if Tony was as good as some are saying, his positive impact would be a little more apparent.

During the post-season, Tony was by far last on the team in +/-, at -12.  The next lowest was -1.  Tony was also 4th worst on the team in the regular season, at -28 over the course of the season.

Those stats don't mean that Tony is a useless player.  However, I think they do show that his positive impact is not as good as some are suggesting.

  Those stats don't show that TA didn't contain Kobe. By my count, in game 1, Kobe got 12 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in the game, and 18 in his other 22 minutes. In game 6, he got (I think) about 6 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in and 20 in his other 23 minutes. 18 points in 34 minutes against Tony vs 38 points in his other 46 minutes. I don't think "Tony was a -21 in those games" reflects that.

You are correct that +/- doesn't show that TA didn't contain Kobe, but it shows with incredible clarity that, in games 1, 6, and 7, while he was on the court (only limited minutes), the team was outscored.  This adds some weight to the argument that his defense, good though it is, does not compensate for his offense, as the team is outscored, sometimes by double digits, in the short time he was on the court.  I don't think we'll have that problem this year, and I think not having TA will be part of the reason why.

  It shows that the team was outscored, but it doesn't show things like who was on the court with him. It also doesn't take into account the fact that Tony's sometimes used as a defensive substitution at the end of a quarter, where he'll be on the court for a defensive possession only. That kind of thing affects you.

[BballTim]

Also, for those who think that Tony was a major factor in containing Kobe, here's his +/- for the Lakers series:

Game 7:  -9
Game 6: -10
Game 5: -1
Game 4: +4
Game 3: -5
Game 2: +3
Game 1: -11

Overall:  -29

Plus-minus isn't a fool-proof stat, but I think that if Tony was as good as some are saying, his positive impact would be a little more apparent.

During the post-season, Tony was by far last on the team in +/-, at -12.  The next lowest was -1.  Tony was also 4th worst on the team in the regular season, at -28 over the course of the season.

Those stats don't mean that Tony is a useless player.  However, I think they do show that his positive impact is not as good as some are suggesting.

  Those stats don't show that TA didn't contain Kobe. By my count, in game 1, Kobe got 12 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in the game, and 18 in his other 22 minutes. In game 6, he got (I think) about 6 points in the 17 minutes Tony was in and 20 in his other 23 minutes. 18 points in 34 minutes against Tony vs 38 points in his other 46 minutes. I don't think "Tony was a -21 in those games" reflects that.

You are correct that +/- doesn't show that TA didn't contain Kobe, but it shows with incredible clarity that, in games 1, 6, and 7, while he was on the court (only limited minutes), the team was outscored.  This adds some weight to the argument that his defense, good though it is, does not compensate for his offense, as the team is outscored, sometimes by double digits, in the short time he was on the court.  I don't think we'll have that problem this year, and I think not having TA will be part of the reason why.

True, but to pick 3 random games out of seven doesn't prove much.  I could pick 3 games that make Ray Allen look like Orien Greene.

  I didn't pick random games. I picked the ones where he had the worst +/- to illustrate that the stat was unrelated to how well he covered Kobe. If I were looking for games to make Tony's defense look good, I'd have started with game 5 when Kobe almost broke the record for points in a quarter against Ray. Looking at those numbers, Kobe scored about 5 of his 38 points with Tony in the game. Think the other games will all be different?

  Saying the team didn't play great when Tony was in the game is probably correct. Saying that they played poorly because of Tony is probably debatable. Saying that he didn't do a good job of containing Kobe is revisionist history.

[BballTim]

(although I dispute that Delonte will be potent enough on offense to insure that Paul will never be doubled by Delonte's man)

You're not going to stop teams from double-teaming. Teams doubled off of Ray Allen last season, for what it's worth. The issue here is making them pay, and I think West will definitely be potent enough to do this when defenses sag off of him.

  This is (obviously) true, and it's a point I've been trying to make for quite a while. KG gets a lot of open looks from the outside as well.

[ScoobyDoo]

True BballTim, and agreed. I don't think TAllen's role behind Gay and Mayo will be much different than behind Pierce and Ray. The only major difference? He might end up playing even less as Gay and mayo are younger and can run much longer and harder at a high level than Pierce and Ray at this point, which means...they'll conceivably need much less rest...

And that's what I mean about TA regretting his decision not re-signing with the celtics. He is likely to experience the following in Memphis:

The same role or less, minus the expectation of getting into the playoffs and getting by the first round, much less about winning an NBA title.

For the same money, his best career move was to stay with the Celtics, continue to grow his defensive reputation and continue to work on his weakness and then hope for a nice payoff at 30, 31 and coming off being a key part of another title or two.

I thought it was a terrible, terrible career move for TA.

If it blows up for him in Memphis with no long ployaff runs, he's got little to no shot at a nice pay day at 30, 31 years old.

He's a key part of two long playoff runs with at least one title in Boston...he'll see money coming for a team that's on the edge of winning it. Let's say Orlando who could use a stopper against Wade and LeBron...   

 

[BballTim]

True BballTim, and agreed. I don't think TAllen's role behind Gay and Mayo will be much different than behind Pierce and Ray. The only major difference? He might end up playing even less as Gay and mayo are younger and can run much longer and harder at a high level than Pierce and Ray at this point, which means...they'll conceivably need much less rest...

And that's what I mean about TA regretting his decision not re-signing with the celtics. He is likely to experience the following in Memphis:

The same role or less, minus the expectation of getting into the playoffs and getting by the first round, much less about winning an NBA title.
 

  It's hard to say why he left. Maybe he thought he'd be more involved in the offense, maybe he thought that they play a style that more suits his game. For all we know he might have been one of the mysterious players that were playing for their own agenda last year.

[BballTim]

(although I dispute that Delonte will be potent enough on offense to insure that Paul will never be doubled by Delonte's man)

You're not going to stop teams from double-teaming. Teams doubled off of Ray Allen last season, for what it's worth. The issue here is making them pay, and I think West will definitely be potent enough to do this when defenses sag off of him.

The Celtics are one of the best teams when it comes to passing the ball so it almost seems unreasonable to try and double-team Paul Pierce while Ray Allen is on the floor since both players are exceptional 3pt shooters and Rondo is near the top of the league in assists. You are also right about Delonte being able to punish the double team as well since he is an above average shooter who passes well.

  For a shooting guard he's probably a little below average as a shooter.

[crownsy]

(although I dispute that Delonte will be potent enough on offense to insure that Paul will never be doubled by Delonte's man)

You're not going to stop teams from double-teaming. Teams doubled off of Ray Allen last season, for what it's worth. The issue here is making them pay, and I think West will definitely be potent enough to do this when defenses sag off of him.

The Celtics are one of the best teams when it comes to passing the ball so it almost seems unreasonable to try and double-team Paul Pierce while Ray Allen is on the floor since both players are exceptional 3pt shooters and Rondo is near the top of the league in assists. You are also right about Delonte being able to punish the double team as well since he is an above average shooter who passes well.

  For a shooting guard he's probably a little below average as a shooter.

From beyond the arch? he's a 37% shooter, I'd say thats pretty good for a SG who's coming off the bench. I mean ray, who in no way, shape or form am i comparing to delonte outside of raw numbers comparison, is a 40% shooter from down town.


I agree he has a very limited mid range game, but for a guard off the bench i think he provides good spot up offense.