Celtics will regret not re-signing Tony

[Witch-King]

I'm sure that come playoff time, maybe even a few times before in the regular season when we face a team with an elite sg or back-up sg because Tony Allen's play-making ability and athleticism was a much needed spark off of our bench. I don't know about y'all, however I'm sort of looking forward to seeing him play with the Grizz next month; Mayo, Conley, Gasol and Gay are an entertaining young group to watch...

[j804]

Agree to disagree everybody?? lol

Its funny lots of people love and think well be missing Tony, while others are on the other side of the fence saying good riddance. No right or wrong the debate is good guess well see midseason or so how everybody stacks up also Roy even u know stats dont measure everything like impact on the game

[LooseCannon]

Some Tony Allen stats, to show you just how bad his jump shot was:

FG% at the rim: 63.5%

FG% inside 10 feet: 28.6%

FG% 10 - 15 feet: 33.3%

FG% 16 - 23 feet: 25.0%

3PT FG%:  0.0%

FT%:  60.5%

Tony's percentage at the rim is respectable enough, but it's hard to express just how horrible all of the other numbers are.

It's easy to express.  Just compare to Rondo.

FG% at the rim: 64.2%

FG% inside 10 feet: 50.4%

FG% 10 - 15 feet: 46.9%

FG% 16 - 23 feet: 33.0%

3PT FG%:  32.0%

FT%:  62.1%

Tony Allen plays elite defense and can make a case that he is the best defender at his position, but his offense is so poor that there that he can only hope to improve to have a jumpshot on par with Rondo's, and if he did improve he would be a starter in the NBA.

Even if we miss Tony Allen, I think he's another Leon Powe-type player whose injury history makes him someone who shouldn't be in the Celtics long-term plans.

[BballTim]

At the end of the day - and there is just no getting around this - the more time TA gets on the court, or the bigger the role he assumes, the more his deficiencies on the offenive end are exposed, and the less he helps.  We can check the numbers, compare percentages and averages all day, but we've watched the games and know this to be true. 

As Red used to say, there are only two parts to the game: offense and defense, and players have to play both.  He's a 15 minute per game player, at most, on a decent team.  It just isn't that hard to replace one-dimensional, 15 minute per game players.  In fact, I think at least 2 of the 3 guys who will compete for his minutes could play a larger role and more minutes than TA is capable of playing, and will help us while doing it.

  It's also true that, at the end of the day, none of the players were offered contracts as long or for as much money as TA, even by the Celts. And saying that he's "a 15 minute per game player, at most, on a decent team" is nonsensical when he was playing 16-17 minutes on a team that went to the finals last year.

As far as the number of minutes, arguing 15 vs. 16-17 is flat-out stupid, unless one is merely looking to argue, which is appearing more and more the case.

As far as arguing the quality of the team, it is irrelevant to the point, which is that TA is only a limited-minute backup in the NBA.

  I wasn't arguing 16-17 vs 15, more that it's idiotic to say that he couldn't get more minutes on a team that didn't have Pierce/Allen/Rondo in their lineup. Saying he couldn't get more minutes on a decent team than he could on a title contender is nonsensical.

[BballTim]

Also, let's not get carried away with this "Tony as SF" idea.  He played some spot minutes there, and held his own defensively, but he's not a full-time backup SF.  Last season, he played only 1% of the available minutes there.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09BOS6.HTM#bypos

  I'd take that number with a grain of salt. In 4 of Tony's top 5 five man units he's listed as the sg while Ray is the sf. The designation seems fairly arbitrary in those cases.

[BballTim]

And it was the numbers that Roy Hobbs posted that became so apparent to me in that LA series. We made it just too easy for Kobe, and he still shot a low percentage against us.

Let's see him work a little with DWest, Wafer and Marquis on the floor.

This current crew will make it tougher for MIA as well. Let's see DWade chase Rondo, West, Nate, Marquis and Ray around the court. He'll be gassed by the third quarter, just like he was back in April.

Same with Lebron - as great a player he is, he can't guard 3 or 4 spots.

Again - we just have better offensive options, now. TA leaving may be a blessing in disguise.

  I think you're overestimating the fear West and Daniels strike in opposing defenses.

[BballTim]

Posey was the defensive stopper for our championship team. He was a much smarter defender who didn't make many mistakes and could actually contribute on offense. That is the type of player we need, not TA.

  Do we have a player like that on our roster? If not, how and where are we going to get him?

[GreenFaith1819]

And it was the numbers that Roy Hobbs posted that became so apparent to me in that LA series. We made it just too easy for Kobe, and he still shot a low percentage against us.

Let's see him work a little with DWest, Wafer and Marquis on the floor.

This current crew will make it tougher for MIA as well. Let's see DWade chase Rondo, West, Nate, Marquis and Ray around the court. He'll be gassed by the third quarter, just like he was back in April.

Same with Lebron - as great a player he is, he can't guard 3 or 4 spots.

Again - we just have better offensive options, now. TA leaving may be a blessing in disguise.

  I think you're overestimating the fear West and Daniels strike in opposing defenses.

Well, see - that's the thing BBall....

When Rondo and TA were both on the floor in that LA series, they did not exactly strike fear in the Lakers Defense.......

[GreenFaith1819]

To Add:

I know that Rondo is a better shooter than TA - but it was so obvious to me that Kobe and DFish were practically daring both of them to shoot during that series.

I know that overall Rondo made LA pay in other various ways (assists, rebs, etc), but TA?

[BballTim]

And it was the numbers that Roy Hobbs posted that became so apparent to me in that LA series. We made it just too easy for Kobe, and he still shot a low percentage against us.

Let's see him work a little with DWest, Wafer and Marquis on the floor.

This current crew will make it tougher for MIA as well. Let's see DWade chase Rondo, West, Nate, Marquis and Ray around the court. He'll be gassed by the third quarter, just like he was back in April.

Same with Lebron - as great a player he is, he can't guard 3 or 4 spots.

Again - we just have better offensive options, now. TA leaving may be a blessing in disguise.

  I think you're overestimating the fear West and Daniels strike in opposing defenses.

Well, see - that's the thing BBall....

When Rondo and TA were both on the floor in that LA series, they did not exactly strike fear in the Lakers Defense.......

  Again, though, I don't think that Delonte being a better shooter than TA will more than offset the offensive advantage for the Lakers if Kobe's guarded by West instead of TA. Getting more production from your top option is generally more important than getting offensive production from your 4th or 5th option.

[BballTim]

Some Tony Allen stats, to show you just how bad his jump shot was:

FG% at the rim: 63.5%

FG% inside 10 feet: 28.6%

FG% 10 - 15 feet: 33.3%

FG% 16 - 23 feet: 25.0%

3PT FG%:  0.0%

FT%:  60.5%

Tony's percentage at the rim is respectable enough, but it's hard to express just how horrible all of the other numbers are.

  Oddly enough, aside from 3pt fg% (38%) and ft% (81%), check out these numbers:

FG% at the rim: 62%

FG% inside 10 feet: 33%

FG% 10 - 15 feet: 20%

FG% 16 - 23 feet: 20%

  Those are from Posey for the Celts in 07-08.

[GreenFaith1819]

Good Point, Bball....I just believe that DWest and the players we have now will offset the losses, though.

And to add: Rondo's and TA's lack of a J were not the only reasons that we lost to LA...just wanted to add that.

I think that us adding Shaq, Semih and J.O will help offset what I think was the Main reason we lost to LA - Rebounds.

But that is a story that's already been discussed.

But overall DWest is a much more well-rounded player than TA is...sure he won't lock a player down, but you have to respect his whole game.

Same with our other additions - Wafer and Marquis. DWest will help us by being able to play the 1 as well.

So in some cases you could have DWest at the 1, Ray at the 2 - more than adequate defense from both positions, PLUS - top -notch offense. That's not even accounting for what Nate brings to the table, too.

And DWest is what 25 years old? So the man that may be our most well-rounded player on the bench is now a guy that could run with Rondo - and one who Rondo is quite familiar with.

I think (IMO) - that right now our team is the most interchangeable from the last 3-4 years, from the 5 spots on down to the 1.

As I've stated before - I love TA, still do. But his J was streaky at best.

I'll never forget the game VS LA in Boston last year - TA played really well...was hitting from all over, too. But that still could not hide the fact that he was streaky.

[LooseCannon]

  Oddly enough, aside from 3pt fg% (38%) and ft% (81%), check out these numbers:

The 3pt% is not an insignificant difference.

In a vacuum, Tony Allen is probably about as useful as a top three-point shooting wing with little else to offer on offense who is a sieve on defense.

[BballTim]

  Oddly enough, aside from 3pt fg% (38%) and ft% (81%), check out these numbers:

The 3pt% is not an insignificant difference.

In a vacuum, Tony Allen is probably about as useful as a top three-point shooting wing with little else to offer on offense who is a sieve on defense.

  People here tend to grossly overrate outside shooting.

[GreenFaith1819]

  Oddly enough, aside from 3pt fg% (38%) and ft% (81%), check out these numbers:

The 3pt% is not an insignificant difference.

In a vacuum, Tony Allen is probably about as useful as a top three-point shooting wing with little else to offer on offense who is a sieve on defense.

  People here tend to grossly overrate outside shooting.

I don't believe so, BBall - just like we don't overrate superior defense, like what TA gave us.

But he is gone now, by his choice. Danny gave him the opportunity to come back, but he wanted more.

We have to go into 2010-11 and take back what LA stole from us, and I think we have the weapons to do that now.