Author Topic: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?  (Read 23623 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2010, 03:25:06 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
My bad if this was already mentioned - but what about Xavier Henry? He seems to be available:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/aug/19/griz-get-trade-offers-for-henry/

Number 12 pick for MEM last draft...good height..more youth..full stats from his last season at KAN below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=46115

What could we realistically offer MEM that would allow us to acquire Henry? Would Doc allow him some minutes to grow?

Or are we best served just going with a vet backup for Pierce for the minimum $ allowed?

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2010, 03:38:03 PM »

Offline Snakehead

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6846
  • Tommy Points: 448
My bad if this was already mentioned - but what about Xavier Henry? He seems to be available:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/aug/19/griz-get-trade-offers-for-henry/

Number 12 pick for MEM last draft...good height..more youth..full stats from his last season at KAN below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=46115

What could we realistically offer MEM that would allow us to acquire Henry? Would Doc allow him some minutes to grow?

Or are we best served just going with a vet backup for Pierce for the minimum $ allowed?

Henry would be a good pickup for us, young talent to develop now behind Pierce and then possibly take over once he moves on.  He seems like he could be at least a good defender and shooter, but I think he will probably be a good all around player.

I'd say all we could offer and Memphis would take is two 1st rounders... question is if that is worth it.  We won't be getting low picks for the next 2 years, so it could be.  If we think he's good enough of a prospect it could be a smart move and then once we lose the old vets off the books in a couple years we have room for free agents.  We could rebuild our team more that way, through using up cap space, and losing 2 draft picks for a guy who will be at least pretty solid would not be a bad move.

As for if that is enough for Pierce backup next year... we are mostly then accepting Quis and Wafer as our backups then.  Doc doesn't usually play the rookies.  But if he can be a good defender, he and Bradley could perhaps both get some minutes because they at least would be holding it down on the defensive end.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 03:44:22 PM by Snakehead »
"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2010, 03:56:33 PM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

  • NCE
  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15402
  • Tommy Points: 2785
My bad if this was already mentioned - but what about Xavier Henry? He seems to be available:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/aug/19/griz-get-trade-offers-for-henry/

Number 12 pick for MEM last draft...good height..more youth..full stats from his last season at KAN below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=46115

What could we realistically offer MEM that would allow us to acquire Henry? Would Doc allow him some minutes to grow?

Or are we best served just going with a vet backup for Pierce for the minimum $ allowed?

Henry would be a good pickup for us, young talent to develop now behind Pierce and then possibly take over once he moves on.  He seems like he could be at least a good defender and shooter, but I think he will probably be a good all around player.

I'd say all we could offer and Memphis would take is two 1st rounders... question is if that is worth it.  We won't be getting low picks for the next 2 years, so it could be.  If we think he's good enough of a prospect it could be a smart move and then once we lose the old vets off the books in a couple years we have room for free agents.  We could rebuild our team more that way, through using up cap space, and losing 2 draft picks for a guy who will be at least pretty solid would not be a bad move.

As for if that is enough for Pierce backup next year... we are mostly then accepting Quis and Wafer as our backups then.  Doc doesn't usually play the rookies.  But if he can be a good defender, he and Bradley could perhaps both get some minutes because they at least would be holding it down on the defensive end.

Good Points, SH - especially the last statement (Doc playing rookies). I saw that MEM link off of Hoopshype, and just started wondering.

If we could in fact get this done for a pick or two, then I'm all for it. I think it'd be unfortunate if we did this and Doc didn't give him any PT, though.

The man seems to have at least one advantage over Marquis - and that's his 3pt %.

I'd like to see more youth on the team - someone that can run with Rondo (or Nate on the 2nd unit).

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2010, 05:26:04 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2644
  • Tommy Points: 447
Hang on Bball, that was a long time ago..let me go back and see what kind of BS I was trying to sell you back then...

Ok, yeah, I did say that at the beginning and I still agree with myself that Tony is too small.

He's too small to be an ideal back up small forward, which, but the way, appears to be the equivalent of the the Holy Grail in the NBA.

HOWEVER and BUT...even at his leass than ideal size for a SFe, TAllen brings exponentially more toughness, strength, physical aggression and defense, IMHO, to the back up SF position than Marquis Daniels does. TAllen isn't ideal either but he brings rock solid D and toughness. We don't need him to score much, especially with all the other options we have now. We're going to be a smash mouth team this year on the inside.

Also, I cleary stated "if I could put TAllen and Gody behind Pierce with Marquis and Wafer behind Ray, I'd feel alot better about our rotations.

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe it's not that important but I just simply feel that we need alot more toughness than what Marquis can bring at the back up three post if we want to give Paul a decent chance of being a dominant palyer against what is likely to be our two biggest road blocks to #18:

LeBron / Miller combo in Miami
&
Artest / Barnes / Odom trio in LA

I'm not worried about any of the other match ups against anyone other than this SF back up issue.


 

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2010, 05:43:35 PM »

Offline gar

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2629
  • Tommy Points: 247
  • Strength from Within
Harangody's defense at SF would be a problem. He might be able to get some 3's off and he might be able to muscle his man underneath; but perimeter D'fense is something that we need to be concerned with.

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2010, 09:57:56 PM »

Offline gar

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2629
  • Tommy Points: 247
  • Strength from Within
May have missed this; but is Gaffney even in the discussion here. He has the size and may be able to play matchups that require more length. Not overwhelmed by his summer league play; but wondering if there is any promise there?

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2010, 10:15:36 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Hang on Bball, that was a long time ago..let me go back and see what kind of BS I was trying to sell you back then...

Ok, yeah, I did say that at the beginning and I still agree with myself that Tony is too small.


  At this point you should go back and modify all of your posts to be at least somewhat consistent in your views of size, and what (if anything) it has to do with how tall you are compared to other players at your position. Something that works for any player you want, not one (or more) definition for Quis, different definition(s) for Baby and other meanings for TA. Otherwise it's a little hard to keep up with your "one new definition per post" method of arguing.

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #112 on: August 20, 2010, 09:18:55 AM »

Offline Snakehead

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6846
  • Tommy Points: 448
May have missed this; but is Gaffney even in the discussion here. He has the size and may be able to play matchups that require more length. Not overwhelmed by his summer league play; but wondering if there is any promise there?


I think there is.  He is long and loves to hustle, board, and defend.  Takes some bad shots, but I think that's something he could figure out quickly.  He has athletic ability so he can finish around the rim pretty well and will improve at that, he would benefit from a good PG and passer like Rondo.

But not this upcoming season anyways.  I do think he'd be ready to contribute much, nor would Doc let him since he doesn't play rookies much (and though I like Gaffney, if Avery Bradley or Gody don't get many minutes I don't see how Gaff would).  I'd like to keep him on our D-League roster if possible beacuse I think he could develop into a good defender and rebounder but he is not someone who would make an impact next year.



Also, remember when there was talk of us getting Grant Hill before he resigned for the Suns?  Man I wish that happend.  He would be outstanding coming off the bench for us.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 10:16:32 AM by Snakehead »
"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2010, 02:47:10 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2644
  • Tommy Points: 447
Bball, I actually don't think there si anything confusing whatsoever about my method of argument and there is no need for me to re-phrase any of my arguemnts.

1. I clearly stated I would feel much better about having "TAllen and Harangody" behind Pierce with "Marquis and Wafer" behind Ray. It's right there in my writing. I find it interesting you didn't acknowledge that I had in fact actually "written that out in letters". You don't acknowledge that of course.

2. My entire argument throughout this post and the entire jist of the argument is that Marquis Daniels, even if he were 6'10" is a "MARSH-MELLOW". He will struggle greatly against LeBron or Artes in a back up role. TAllen, Harangody, these two guys will go "to the mat" with guys twice their size and actually, because of their physical toughness and mental aggression, actually have a shot at winning that scuffle.

3. My entire point, distilled into a single statement, which somehow seems impossible to make clear to you is this "there is a pnomenally monumnental difference between TAllen or Big Baby being undersized at their position and Marquis also being undersized at his position. What's the difference? Big baby and TAllen actaully have something called "a sack" between their legs. In their own ways Big baby and TAllen are not guys you want to meet in a dark alley. Marquis, if you met him in a dark alley, you might have some tea and crumpets, talk about the weather...

AND, this toughness, physical strength and mental aggression which Big Baby and TAllen have in spades, allow them to play at the PF and SF positions and get away with , even though they are undersized in some manner. TAllen is a little short but he is at zero disadvantage from a strength standpoint. Same for Big Baby.

Marquis at the SF position is at a disadvantage from a height stanpoint, a strength standpoint and from metnal aggression standpoint. He just is not a tough guy. My grandmother is tougher than this kid. Which isn't a knock against him at all, it's just what it is. I like Marquis' game alot...from the off guard spot.

I dont' knwo what's to hard to understand. We need a larger, tougher back up small forward for Pierce than Marquis. If we can't find that guy at 6'7 to 6'9" than yes, I would bew "ok" with at least having TA there because he is so GD tough abnd strong for his size.

We don't even need to get into Marquis' injury history on top of all his other shortcomings at the back up sf. When you ar playing out of position or against bigger guys every night, you tend to get injured even "more easily" than Marquis already does. TA can get away with it, because, again, he is so physically tough. It;s like Barekely could also get away with it, he's just built tough... Marquis isn't.

GAR, 100% agree with Harangody most likley being a liablity at the three spot on D. Questions...can great team D hide that for 10-15 minutes a night and can he make up on offense wat we lose on Defense by beating guys up in the post, being a power rebounder formt he three spot and hitting some jumpers as you mentioned. Remains to be seen and I think it's a stretch, but somehow I'd feel more comfortable with Gody beating guys at the three spot kind of like a Noicioni type player rather than seeing Marquis trying to manage it and likely getting banged up in the process. I'd definately try Gody against the bigger SF's.   
   

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2010, 02:56:51 PM »

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 63073
  • Tommy Points: -25462
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Marquis, if you met him in a dark alley, you might have some tea and crumpets, talk about the weather...

Wasn't Daniels one of the "Bad Boy Pacers" who got arrested on battery charges?  Wasn't he present at the Stephen Jackson shooting incident?  Isn't his father a career criminal who has done time for murder?

Daniels may be injury prone, but off the court, he's one of the guys I'd probably least like to meet in a dark alley.  I'm not sure that "crumpets" is in his vocabulary.

Of course, I'm also not sure that being tough off the court is a prerequisite for being a small forward in this league.  Lebron seems to lead a pretty soft lifestyle, and yet he's the best small forward, and probably the best defensive small forward, in the NBA.



I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER... AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!

KP / Giannis / Turkuglu / Jrue / Curry
Sabonis / Brand / A. Thompson / Oladipo / Brunson
Jordan / Bowen

Redshirt:  Cooper Flagg

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2010, 03:32:21 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Bball, I actually don't think there si anything confusing whatsoever about my method of argument and there is no need for me to re-phrase any of my arguemnts.

1. I clearly stated I would feel much better about having "TAllen and Harangody" behind Pierce with "Marquis and Wafer" behind Ray. It's right there in my writing. I find it interesting you didn't acknowledge that I had in fact actually "written that out in letters". You don't acknowledge that of course.

2. My entire argument throughout this post and the entire jist of the argument is that Marquis Daniels, even if he were 6'10" is a "MARSH-MELLOW". He will struggle greatly against LeBron or Artes in a back up role. TAllen, Harangody, these two guys will go "to the mat" with guys twice their size and actually, because of their physical toughness and mental aggression, actually have a shot at winning that scuffle.

3. My entire point, distilled into a single statement, which somehow seems impossible to make clear to you is this "there is a pnomenally monumnental difference between TAllen or Big Baby being undersized at their position and Marquis also being undersized at his position. What's the difference? Big baby and TAllen actaully have something called "a sack" between their legs. In their own ways Big baby and TAllen are not guys you want to meet in a dark alley. Marquis, if you met him in a dark alley, you might have some tea and crumpets, talk about the weather...
   

  I thought your original argument wasn't that he was too soft, but too small, as was TA, another unsuitable backup. Daniels is probably closer to average size for a sf than Baby is for a pf. But Daniels is undersized and not Baby because of the way Baby plays. TA seems to share the traits that keep Baby from being undersized, but (obviously) TA is undersized.

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2010, 05:54:16 PM »

Offline gar

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2629
  • Tommy Points: 247
  • Strength from Within
After watching Durant against Spain, there are times (like against Rashard Lewis) where height is important. Gaffney is the only player on the roster who has that kind of length. He is a great shot blocker underneath the basket. The question is if he can play against the Durants, Lewis' and LeBron's of this world. Being an effective is a little awkward garbage / hustle player who can block shots is great if you are actually playing around the basket; but not sure that is where we need him.

Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2010, 09:11:11 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2644
  • Tommy Points: 447
Roy, I know nothing of Marquis' off court experience, I'll take at face value that he comes from the streets and understand all that can entail at it's worst.

But honestly, that doesn't mean anything to me, as you also said, once he steps on a court. I grew up playing agaisnt a bunch of kids who spent their entire youth on scallop dragging boats, digging clams or hauling Lobster traps since they could see over the side of the boat. You want tough, you'll find it there. Toughness isn't where you're from, it's who you are, or aren't. Ask Bill Laimbeer or Michael Jordan how worried they would be about any number of players from whatever rough back ground they came from....Rodman, Barkeley, Bird....not from the mean streets...   

Bball, you win, you're right, Marquis is a stud and a great back up for Pierce. I have no issue whatsoever with Marquis as Pierce's back up. He is tall enough, strong enough, mentally aggressive enough and he never gets injured so I know he will be a great, solid back up for Pierce, especially when Pierce needs rest or is injured himself and Marquis needs to guard the bigger small forwards and hang and bang on the borads with them. He will crush them, they will cower simply due to his presence. I can tell you this, LeBron, Artest, Kobe? They see Daniels coming, they see an appetizer. They  see TAllen coming, they see a mini pitbull. How that difference is lost on anyone is beyond my comprehension. 

Another question: Do you think all lines of argument never deviate whatsoever from an original statement? They all do. If I say Marquis is too samll and you ask me if he's too soft as well, the obvious answer to that question is a resounding yes. If you ask me if there are any other reasons he's inadequate at the position, you get the laundry list.

TAllen is undersized, which is WHY i have stated I'd like
another, BIGGER small forward with TA, like Harangody or anyone with some decent size and physical toughness.

But yes, to answer your question for about the 100th time, if I had a choice between TAllen and Daniels, I'd choose TAllen every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The actual height of the guy doesn't matter to me!!!! That's like asking me if I think Charles Barkeley is too small to play the PF spot? Or Dennis Rodman is too small to guard Shaq. The answer to both is "NO" BECAUSE, they ARE TOUGH, PHYSICAL GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are going to comb over every word I've written, do it right. I STATED Big baby was undersized form a length standpoint but he can MAKE UP for it with his STRENGTH AND PHYSICAL TOUGHNESS, as can TALLEN.

MARQUIS DANIELS CANNOT DO THIS! HE DOES NOT HAVE THAT CALLING CARD!!!

I have said already that TA and Big Baby are both undersized in some way, but they can both make up for it because of some similar traits they both have which are:
1. an actual sack between their legs
2. unusaul physical strength for the size in a pound for pound context.

Christ, watch TAllen play, guys, even big men, go the other way when they meet him in the air or at the rim. Big Baby body slammed Shaquille O'neal in the past for ****. Marquis Daniels couldn't body slam Shirley Temple.

IMHO anyone who doesn't understand why Marquis ( an off guard) is a very subpar back up for Paul Pierce doens't really understand baketball or hasn't played much of it.

I really just don't get what part of my argument you find so difficult to follow.

It seems to me you know it's a losing argument so you're just trying to find any minutia of contradictory statements.

The bottom line is Marquis is a great back up off guard for Ray along with Wafer, but because he's too small, too soft and too weak to be a sufficient Small forward, he blows as Pierce's back up. There, that's my argument.     

   


Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2010, 09:13:16 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2644
  • Tommy Points: 447
...but I get your point Roy...


Re: Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2010, 10:52:11 PM »

Offline gar

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2629
  • Tommy Points: 247
  • Strength from Within
Wow, I can see this thread is going nowhere.