Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?

[ScoobyDoo]

Correct, BBD didn't sign a 3 year deal, it was a two year deal. It's semantic details; my point is that one way or another, Ainge has managed to keep a decent PF back up behind KG for four years. Baby is no superstar but he is a legit backup player who can start on occasion, when necessary and give KG at least 10-15 minutes a night rest.

But somehow, over four years time, we haven't been able to find some "half-scrub" like Barnes who can just do a half decent job at giving Pierce and Ray a break. I'd argue over the last four years there have probably been 10-15 guys who would've worked. We're not talking about a superstar here, we're talking about a basic scrub back up that can walk and chew gum for 10-15 mintues a night like Barnes does.

To be honest, and I really mean it when I say it, if Doc would promise that Harahgody or baby will be used at Small forward for 15 minutes a night if Marquis goes down with an injury and he delivered on that promise, I'd end my complaints.

I am just so sick of seeing a beaten up Paul Pierce at the 3/4 mark of every season for the plain and simple reason that he hasn't had a legit back up behind him going on three years now!

Teh year he had Posey, the guy was an animal, he dominated Lebron and Kobe and we won a title.

Should we expect him to guard LEbron and Kobe at playoff intensity after logging heavy minutes all season? It it wany wonder he didn't look like himself often times during the last two years in the plyaoffs. Why don't we just lay him on the ground and kick him all season too.

At least Ray has had Tony behind him.

I love Marquis but he's not enough behind Pierce for several reasons.

To his credit, Ainge finally got Rondo a legit back up at the beginning of the season in Nate) for once in his career as a Celtic.

I'm a big Ainge supporter, always have been. But not getting decent hacks behind both Rondo and Pierce these last three seasons has been a major flaw, because it has affected those players ability to consistently dominate ( Pierce more than Rondo, because of age ).

If I'm coaching and I've got nothing lese but Marquis and he goes down, I'm playing Harangody or Baby at the three sport for 15-18 minutes a night this season to keep Pierce's minutes down.   

[Tai]

How is Marquis not enough? He used to be a starter. Now he's not even a "half-scrub"? What about Wafer? He's only an inch shorter and about 10 pounds bigger than Daniels. I think we're fine. 

[Brendan]

I think it's just hard to find a guy that can do what the C's would want out of a Pierce backup (play good D, shoot the ball, possibly be able to play a small ball PF) - who is playing at a high level - and fits with the rest of the bench. If they cannot get that guy, they won't make a big commitment, and so they are stuck looking for minimum guys or guys available in a trade - which as discussed aren't so talented or necessarily good fits.

[Fan from VT]

I think it's just hard to find a guy that can do what the C's would want out of a Pierce backup (play good D, shoot the ball, possibly be able to play a small ball PF) - who is playing at a high level - and fits with the rest of the bench. If they cannot get that guy, they won't make a big commitment, and so they are stuck looking for minimum guys or guys available in a trade - which as discussed aren't so talented or necessarily good fits.

...and is AVAILABLE and WANTS to play for the C's over 29 other teams. You need all the right circumstances. It's hard.

[LooseCannon]

Correct, BBD didn't sign a 3 year deal, it was a two year deal. It's semantic details; my point is that one way or another, Ainge has managed to keep a decent PF back up behind KG for four years. Baby is no superstar but he is a legit backup player who can start on occasion, when necessary and give KG at least 10-15 minutes a night rest.

But somehow, over four years time, we haven't been able to find some "half-scrub" like Barnes who can just do a half decent job at giving Pierce and Ray a break. I'd argue over the last four years there have probably been 10-15 guys who would've worked. We're not talking about a superstar here, we're talking about a basic scrub back up that can walk and chew gum for 10-15 mintues a night like Barnes does.

There's a difference between drafting a bench role player and finding one via free agency.  BBD is not a guy the Celtics could ever have acquired as a free agent.

It's not as if Ainge hasn't tried to get a Pierce backup.  He tried to re-sign Posey, but the guy wanted to much money.  He tried to rely on Tony Allen and bought Bill Walker, but TA couldn't seem to step up his game until last season and Walker could never play defense to Doc's specifications.  Then, when TA seemed to figure out his role, he chose to leave for what seemed to be other than purely financial reasons.  Ainge took a gamble on Marquis Daniels, an injury-prone player with the talent to start in the NBA, but it didn't work out.  Maybe Daniels this season will be like TA last season.

All these were at least as reasonable as taking a wing off the vet min scrap heap.  I generally approve, because I think the team really needs to take some risks rather than take on proven mediocrity.

Matt Barnes was never going to be on that list.  The best bet is an older ring hunter (and Barnes is a guy who wants to get paid) or a young underachiever who a team chose not to extend a qualifying offer to.

[ScoobyDoo]

Maybe I'm just wrong on this, which is quite possible. It's not that I don't like Marquis, I like him alot actually.

I just see him as "an injury prone and smallish SF who's really a shooting guard that can't shoot very well from distance that can also play a little point in a pickle." To me he's more of a off guard / point than a SF / off guard.

Somehow, oddly enough and even though it doesn't make sense really, I'd almost feel better if Ainge and Doc said Harangody's our small forward back up for Pierce. Better becasue I'd feel like he could be a small forward who could bang with anyone and help on the boards.

Just a better physical fit at SF. Course he'd get torched on D...

Heres' hoping Marquis stays healthy the entire season and plays to the level we have all seen and know he is capable of playing at.

[BballTim]

Correct, BBD didn't sign a 3 year deal, it was a two year deal. It's semantic details; my point is that one way or another, Ainge has managed to keep a decent PF back up behind KG for four years. Baby is no superstar but he is a legit backup player who can start on occasion, when necessary and give KG at least 10-15 minutes a night rest.

But somehow, over four years time, we haven't been able to find some "half-scrub" like Barnes who can just do a half decent job at giving Pierce and Ray a break. I'd argue over the last four years there have probably been 10-15 guys who would've worked. We're not talking about a superstar here, we're talking about a basic scrub back up that can walk and chew gum for 10-15 mintues a night like Barnes does.

  First of all, it's a little odd that you're complaining about undersized backup small forwards and praising Davis, who is an undersized backup pf. Secondly, just because a player signs somewhere else doesn't mean Danny didn't look into him.

[Fan from VT]

Additionally, it seems like true SF is one of the harder positions to fill these days. I think it goes like this, in terms of easiest to hardest:

1a. Combo guard pg/sg
1b. PF
3. SF
4. Center


The old mantra that "wings are a dime a dozen" I think is not so true any more. It seems that off-guards that can handle a little are everywhere (Delonte still can't find a home, his position is so easy to find), perhaps because the hand-check rules mean that formerly undersized sg's can now shake defenders well enough to play pg off the bench and PG is deeper than ever because the rules mean pg's can be undersized and quick because they don't have to shake physical defenders.  and for whatever reason there's been an explosion of formerly considered undersized PF's such that I've seen numerous writers say that PF is now the easiest to replace. I think a lot of it has to do with new contact rules making 6'7-6'8 PFs truly viable options, so that guys like David West, carl landry and Milsap are now  borderline stars while Powes, Craig Smiths, and Glen Davises are all legit rotation players. True Centers are still hard to find, and it seems that legit SFs are harder to find and have a steeper dropoff than other positions in terms of talent

[LooseCannon]

A bench player is more valuable if he can play multiple positions, so you want your backup SF to be able to play either SG or PF.  Both would be even better.  Everyone has been saying wing, wing, wing and suggesting SG/SF combos who can backup both Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.  I've been saying that is the wrong mentality and what the Celtics need is are two players who allow for both starting wings to rest on the bench at the same time.

If you had a shortened 8-man rotation for the Celtics, I think the ideal bench would be a PG/SG combo guard, a 3/stretch 4, and a 4/5 who can play against bigger power forwards who the stretch 4 has problems with.  Other people seem to want a "true" PG behind Rondo, a 2/3 wing player, and BBD.  Thus, some of them go a bit nuts because neither Nate Robinson or Avery Bradley strike them as real point guards or because no one on the roster fits their ideal of a 2/3 sixth man who could start on other teams.

The problem is that tweener forwards usually seem badly mismatched at at least one of the foward positions.

[Celtics18]

Tony Gaffney was an excellent defender at UMass.  He really blossomed in his senior year, after having transferred and then sitting out a year.  I actually think being a late bloomer could be a good thing in his case.  Conventional thinking will say that a 25 year old undrafted rookie from a medium-sized conference will have no chance to ever be a legit NBA player.  I say this is a young man who started to grow into his frame late and, therefore, has gone relatively undetected as a good talent. 

I am somewhat shocked that there are 5 pages about how hard it is to find a big, athletic small forward who can guard multiple positions from guards up to bigs, and nobody has, at least, mentioned Tony Gaffney. 

Chances are he won't play alot early on, but I think that Gaffney has loads of potential to be exactly the multi-positional defender that everyone seems to be clamoring for. 

[Roy Hobbs]

Tony Gaffney was an excellent defender at UMass.  He really blossomed in his senior year, after having transferred and then sitting out a year.  I actually think being a late bloomer could be a good thing in his case.  Conventional thinking will say that a 25 year old undrafted rookie from a medium-sized conference will have no chance to ever be a legit NBA player.  I say this is a young man who started to grow into his frame late and, therefore, has gone relatively undetected as a good talent. 

I am somewhat shocked that there are 5 pages about how hard it is to find a big, athletic small forward who can guard multiple positions from guards up to bigs, and nobody has, at least, mentioned Tony Gaffney. 

Chances are he won't play alot early on, but I think that Gaffney has loads of potential to be exactly the multi-positional defender that everyone seems to be clamoring for. 

The problem is that Gaffney would probably instantly become the worst offensive player in the NBA, almost certainly the worst offensive small forward.  Guys like that generally can't make it in the league unless they absolutely dominate on defense, and Gaffney hasn't shown that he's on that level.

[guava_wrench]

Correct, BBD didn't sign a 3 year deal, it was a two year deal. It's semantic details; my point is that one way or another, Ainge has managed to keep a decent PF back up behind KG for four years. Baby is no superstar but he is a legit backup player who can start on occasion, when necessary and give KG at least 10-15 minutes a night rest.

But somehow, over four years time, we haven't been able to find some "half-scrub" like Barnes who can just do a half decent job at giving Pierce and Ray a break. I'd argue over the last four years there have probably been 10-15 guys who would've worked. We're not talking about a superstar here, we're talking about a basic scrub back up that can walk and chew gum for 10-15 mintues a night like Barnes does.

  First of all, it's a little odd that you're complaining about undersized backup small forwards and praising Davis, who is an undersized backup pf. Secondly, just because a player signs somewhere else doesn't mean Danny didn't look into him.

Great first point.

[action781]

Tony Gaffney was an excellent defender at UMass.  He really blossomed in his senior year, after having transferred and then sitting out a year.  I actually think being a late bloomer could be a good thing in his case.  Conventional thinking will say that a 25 year old undrafted rookie from a medium-sized conference will have no chance to ever be a legit NBA player.  I say this is a young man who started to grow into his frame late and, therefore, has gone relatively undetected as a good talent. 

I am somewhat shocked that there are 5 pages about how hard it is to find a big, athletic small forward who can guard multiple positions from guards up to bigs, and nobody has, at least, mentioned Tony Gaffney. 

Chances are he won't play alot early on, but I think that Gaffney has loads of potential to be exactly the multi-positional defender that everyone seems to be clamoring for. 

The problem is that Gaffney would probably instantly become the worst offensive player in the NBA, almost certainly the worst offensive small forward.  Guys like that generally can't make it in the league unless they absolutely dominate on defense, and Gaffney hasn't shown that he's on that level.

Did I hear "worst offensive player in the NBA"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtPuFG014Gc

LOL

[Celtics18]

Tony Gaffney was an excellent defender at UMass.  He really blossomed in his senior year, after having transferred and then sitting out a year.  I actually think being a late bloomer could be a good thing in his case.  Conventional thinking will say that a 25 year old undrafted rookie from a medium-sized conference will have no chance to ever be a legit NBA player.  I say this is a young man who started to grow into his frame late and, therefore, has gone relatively undetected as a good talent. 

I am somewhat shocked that there are 5 pages about how hard it is to find a big, athletic small forward who can guard multiple positions from guards up to bigs, and nobody has, at least, mentioned Tony Gaffney. 

Chances are he won't play alot early on, but I think that Gaffney has loads of potential to be exactly the multi-positional defender that everyone seems to be clamoring for. 

The problem is that Gaffney would probably instantly become the worst offensive player in the NBA, almost certainly the worst offensive small forward.  Guys like that generally can't make it in the league unless they absolutely dominate on defense, and Gaffney hasn't shown that he's on that level.

Why so dismissive?  The kid can run, fill the lanes, and finish on the break. He can also get some garbage points off offensive rebounds. In addition, he actually has a decent looking shooting touch.  He doesn't need to be a ball handler or a creator.  I think if he works on the long ball, he could easily be a Posey or Barnes type player.

[KungPoweChicken]

Tony Gaffney was an excellent defender at UMass.  He really blossomed in his senior year, after having transferred and then sitting out a year.  I actually think being a late bloomer could be a good thing in his case.  Conventional thinking will say that a 25 year old undrafted rookie from a medium-sized conference will have no chance to ever be a legit NBA player.  I say this is a young man who started to grow into his frame late and, therefore, has gone relatively undetected as a good talent. 

I am somewhat shocked that there are 5 pages about how hard it is to find a big, athletic small forward who can guard multiple positions from guards up to bigs, and nobody has, at least, mentioned Tony Gaffney. 

Chances are he won't play alot early on, but I think that Gaffney has loads of potential to be exactly the multi-positional defender that everyone seems to be clamoring for. 

The problem is that Gaffney would probably instantly become the worst offensive player in the NBA, almost certainly the worst offensive small forward.  Guys like that generally can't make it in the league unless they absolutely dominate on defense, and Gaffney hasn't shown that he's on that level.

Why so dismissive?  The kid can run, fill the lanes, and finish on the break. He can also get some garbage points off offensive rebounds. In addition, he actually has a decent looking shooting touch.  He doesn't need to be a ball handler or a creator.  I think if he works on the long ball, he could easily be a Posey or Barnes type player.

Gaffney was a ridiculous play maker in high school. However, he was never known for his three point shooting. I think he has potential to be a nice defender, but I'm really skeptical about him ever having range. I think he could be a Lou Amundson type with more skill.