Why has it been so difficult to find a back up for Pierce?

[BballTim]

If you don't like Baby, there's not much credit you're going to give him anyway Bball.

Baby is not undersized from a weight or strength standpoint. And I'm not sure I'd say Baby is fat. He's built like Shaq, Shaq never looked cut in his career. Neither has Pierce for that matter in the last 5-6 years. Ray Allen looks cut, Pierce looks pudgy to me.

Baby could stand to get more cut, but I don't know if I'd say he's "fat". The guys moves better than most guys his size.

He is undersized from a length standpoint but his strength hel;ps amke up for that.

Comparing Baby to Marquis at their positions is a riduclous comparison as you've put it.

Not only is Marquis smallish, height wise at small forward, he's a wafe at the small forward position as well.

To make the comparison you're suggesting would be like saying that no only is baby on the short side for the PF spot, he also only ways 210 lbs.

  Baby moves well for players his size, but not for players his height. So he's going against power forwards that are taller and better jumpers, but not as strong. But he's still undersized. I'd also like to point out that I don't really hate Davis as a backup pf. And I'm not convinced that 6'6 is smallish height wise for a sf.

The bottom line and the only question that needs to be answered, without getting into all kinds of numbers about how many **** times Baby gets blocked without giving him credit for what he does well at all, is:

Are you comfortable with going up against LeBron and Miller or Artest / Barnes / Odom with Pierce and Marquis?

I am not. But I am completely confortable with a PF rotation of KG and Big Baby as his back up. Becasue even with his limitations, Baby is at least a guy who can get under the rim and hold his own. He WILL STRUGGLE some nights but he is a far more comptetant back up at the PF position than Marquis Daniels is at the SF position.
 

 So you'd be comfortable with your backup guarding LeBron if he was a little taller than Quis? I would personally still be uncomfortable. And are you that happy with Baby guarding Bosh? How about Lewis, who killed Davis in the playoffs when KG was injured? And what if Miami goes with a lineup like Chalmers/Miller/Wade/James/Bosh? Are you expecting Davis to do that much better against LeBron than Daniels?

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, don't get hooked on stats..BBD plays alot of garbage time too, which make the stats look different, to his advantage. We all know bbd, his plus and his minus. He can hustle, he can get rebounds, when he is the "off" guy. He is a bench player. Does he want to be more..? Well, he has the potential, what he does from here, is up to him.

  His shot and attempts are blocked too much for an inside, "go to" guy. Which he could be. He has to improve his jump, his explosiveness, and his conditioning. He could improve his 10 footer too. That would help, and give him some working space.

   He has done some good things, but NOT consistantly. His worst enemy, is if he doesn't imp[rove, and the other tesm starts covering him for real. Putting a big on him. You know what will happen then.

   As for MD...i don't see him as a backup for anyone. Maybe he will turn it on..?I have seen a lot of desire, and potential that doc has overlooked, but not in md...i have seen nothing from him. Lucky for him, he gets another big chance anyway. Now, we'll see. BBD is in the contract year, md has to play to live, so, we'll see. It is up to them. The past, and past stats matter not at all.

[ScoobyDoo]

Yeah Loose cannon, if Marquis, at 6'6", had the physical toughness, strength and aggression of TAllen, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd basically be "ok" with him as Pierce's "back up". But to me Marquis is "soft", even at the off guard position...

Bball - Fair enough about Baby, I don't think Baby is the "ideal" back up at this point becasue he still struggles with understanding how to use his body and the rim to create more space to prevent his shot from getting blocked so often. But he's at least adequate. And that's my argument, based on size, strength, mental aggression, toughess and injury history, I just don't think Marquis is an "adequate" back up for Pierce, espeically when the big dogs start getting nasty around the rim in the playoffs. 

Again, if Marquis were TA tough and strong, I wouldn't complain about him as Pierce's back up at 6'6". But he's a marshmellow. He's like a mini version of Pervis Ellison with dreads...

I'm not necessarily happy with Baby guarding Bosh, but for small spurts I'll live with it and try to have Baby muscle him and beat him up. Bosh, by the way, would also do major damage against other bench guys like Taj, Speights, etc. But that's why we have KG as a starter.  Baby is a nice rotation guy but it is also nice to now have J'O'neal as well when we need more height at the back up spot for KG. But I'd live with Baby. I'd still take a Big Baby / KG combo against any other PF combo in the league, we'll come out on top most of the time.

Re the Chalmers/Wade/Miller /James/Bosh lineup..
I wouldn't play Baby in that lineup.
I'd go..
Rondo/Ray/Marquis/Pierce/KG or J. O'Neal

Meadowlark: agreed re baby - big potential - if he ever gets really cut, drops about 15 more lbs - which will help his quickness and lift AND contiues to learn how to use his body and the rim to create space for his shot - he has big upside. We will see.

Agreed with your assessment of Marquis. Ideally I see him as a decent guy to go with Ray and Wafer in the off guard rotation. An off guard with different skills than Ray or Wafer


To conclude, I think Pierce's comments yesterday speak volumes(article attached at the bottom of my post below): He thinks the Celtics need one more piece...someone off the bench to back him up. Did he miss the memo that the Celtics re-signed Marquis Daniels?

And this begs the question, why, in three years time, have we not been able to get some "adequate" back up for Pierce? He's arguably the most important player on our team, he's our money man in crunch time, that is, at least when he's not exhausted like the last two years...
Pierce is a warrior for sure, but he needs adeqaute help behind him.
If Bobby Simmon could grab a few boards, push a few people around and hit a few shots, not kill us on D, I'd be happy with that, and then Marquis as well...maybe Gody can play the role, I would "love" to see that. A real bruiser coming in behind Pierce to lay some major smack on some people while Pierce is getting a breather. My only concern there is that he's get killed on D... 

Pierce thinks Celtics need one more 'piece'
E-mail|Link|Comments (3) Posted by Gary Washburn Globe Staff August 17, 2010 07:19 PM
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Paul Pierce spoke to reporters at his annual camp at the Basketball City facility in Boston and said he pushed for the acquisition of Shaquille O'Neal and confirmed that the big man nicknamed him "The Truth."

Pierce (pictured right guarding one of his camp employees) isn't satisfied, however. He believes the Celtics need one more player, preferably someone to relieve him off the bench.

[ScoobyDoo]

Just saw Harangody's pics on the home page rookie shots...they said he lost about 15 lbs between the end of the college season and the summer league, from 250 down to 235 or something.

In those pictures he looks like he's lost even mor eweight. Is it possible they are slimming him down, given the depth at power forward...so he can play some minutes at the three? We know he can hit a few shots...

If he gets light enough so he doens't get "destroyed on D" but still has a bull in a china closet mentality on offense...can he play some three?

[BballTim]

Yeah Loose cannon, if Marquis, at 6'6", had the physical toughness, strength and aggression of TAllen, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd basically be "ok" with him as Pierce's "back up". But to me Marquis is "soft", even at the off guard position...

Bball - Fair enough about Baby, I don't think Baby is the "ideal" back up at this point becasue he still struggles with understanding how to use his body and the rim to create more space to prevent his shot from getting blocked so often. But he's at least adequate. And that's my argument, based on size, strength, mental aggression, toughess and injury history, I just don't think Marquis is an "adequate" back up for Pierce, espeically when the big dogs start getting nasty around the rim in the playoffs. 

Again, if Marquis were TA tough and strong, I wouldn't complain about him as Pierce's back up at 6'6". But he's a marshmellow. He's like a mini version of Pervis Ellison with dreads...

  So basically you're saying that Marquis isn't a good backup for a variety of reasons (which many people probably agree with) but you're losing people when you try and lump all of his flaws into "undersized". Likewise, you're trying to say that Baby is a decent backup (which, again, many might agree with) while claiming that, despite the fact that he's shorter and can't jump as high as most PFs, he's not undersized.

To conclude, I think Pierce's comments yesterday speak volumes(article attached at the bottom of my post below): He thinks the Celtics need one more piece...someone off the bench to back him up. Did he miss the memo that the Celtics re-signed Marquis Daniels?

And this begs the question, why, in three years time, have we not been able to get some "adequate" back up for Pierce? He's arguably the most important player on our team, he's our money man in crunch time, that is, at least when he's not exhausted like the last two years...

  Here's what Pierce said: "I think we could use another wingman off the bench after losing Tony Allen. I think he was real valuable what he brought in the playoffs..." So last year we had two backup wings, Daniels and Allen. This year we lost Allen and Paul's saying that because TA left we need another wing. I doubt that he missed the Daniels signing, but he didn't seem to do any complaining about the roster until after Tony left, which doesn't seem to jibe with your point that we didn't have a decent backup for Pierce last year.

[Assassin70]

Just saw Harangody's pics on the home page rookie shots...they said he lost about 15 lbs between the end of the college season and the summer league, from 250 down to 235 or something.

In those pictures he looks like he's lost even mor eweight. Is it possible they are slimming him down, given the depth at power forward...so he can play some minutes at the three? We know he can hit a few shots...

If he gets light enough so he doens't get "destroyed on D" but still has a bull in a china closet mentality on offense...can he play some three?

Maybe...

I don't think you can pencil him in @ the 3 as PPs backup.  But I am sure with the right lineup on the floor he could play minutes at that position.  But I think we are expecting a bit much.

I think what we will see from him this year is a poor man's Charles Oakley (late in his career version).  Get a few rebounds hit the open show a little toughness.  Wont wow you but will be solid.

[ScoobyDoo]

BballTim - points understood where I might be losing people on the undersized part of the argument, that's valid, I get that.

I'll put it a differnt way then.

While Big Baby does struggle due to a lack of length from a "size perspective", I am fairly confident that "overall" he can "basically" handle himself with the biggest of the big men in the league and do an adequate job.

Will he struggle against Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, guys that have significant size advantage over him in terms of length? Absolutely, 100%. But you knwo what, everyone in the league struggles with those guys, even our own KG.

He will take some lumps ( guys shooting over him 0 but he will dish out some lumps ( beating up on guys with his weight and strength). He wins some and looses some...

To the contrary, I have very little confidence that Marquis Daniels can "basically" handle the back up SF position from a "size perspective" in all sorts of manners;
1. I don't think he can defend the stronger SF's ( LeBron and Artest, even a Barnes )
2. I don't think he can rebound with them
3. I don't think he can score inside on them and I don't think he can shoot for crap from the outside

I don't think Marquis Daniels can physically hang with them at any level. Baby, on the other hand, can.

Baby wins some and loses some in his back up role as a PF.
Daniels to me will lose the majority of the time at the SF position. The main reason is that he's really an off guard.

Baby, while it's true he's undersized length wise at his position, he has the physical ability to make up for it in another way, basically by hammering people and sticking his wide body in the middle of everything. Marquis can't do that at the SF position.

The only reason TAllen was able to get away with it at his size is because he's one of those guys who's incedibly strong, tough and aggressive, lb for lb for his size.

I've played against guys like TAllen plenty. They're smaller than you but they're tossing you all over the place.

Marquis is a marshmellow. He's soft at the off guard position, let alone the SF position. He has no way to make up his size disadvantage with strength or toughness like Baby and TAllen do, which allows them to be at least "adequate" back ups in their roles. Marquis doesn't have theat card to call on.

Pierce isn't stupid, he knows Marquis cannot bring the physical toughness required to play in the SF spot around the rim like Tony can. That's what he's referring to about getting a player who can support him like that, something he knows Marquis cannot do. That's not a knock against Marquis, it's just a realistic observation. If Marquis had Tony's toughness or if Marquis was Michael Pietrus or Matt Barnes, I don't think you'd hear that comment from Pierce.

Assassin70 - agreed, i do think its a stretch as well re Gody. However, if he could play 10-15 minutes a night and not get killed D. Hit a couple shots, grab a few boards and smack a few people from the three spot, this team will be rolling.

The weak spot in this team form a physciall standpoint, is at the three spot, after Pierce.


But I have a sneaky feeling about Gody, same as I had about Gomes. He's smart, tough as nails, fearless, great motor and a guy who probably heard he couldn't play at every level after high school.

2nd leading scorer all time in the big east, 3rd all time rebounder...

Does well at the next jump, the summer pro league, makes the Celtics...

He's not a guy I would bet against. Like a Gomes or a Steve Blake type, these guys figure out how to get it done. They're "players"...


 

[OmarSekou]

I really feel as though we've traded them away. Gomes and Bill Walker. Paul is as unique a SF as they come. The only guy I can compare him to is Melo.

So if you're saying why can't we find someone to replicate what Paul does...not many of those guys exist.

Marquis can be a solid SF, he just has a different game than Paul. He's a fine defender.

[DinTN]

Found this article published today that might be of interest:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/438787-the-boston-celtics-face-a-moment-of-truth

Some highlights:

This also brings up the question as to why Tony Allen has not signed with his new team yet.  One would think after he basically said he preferred playing time to ubuntu that he would sign his new contract already

Was there a pre-draft deal made between Chris Wallace and Danny Ainge that will only come to fruition once Allen signs his new deal?


I thought TA had signed with Memphis.

[gar]

Tp. Great Thread - aside from some diversions. Much has been covered before; but very timely topic. Should be clear if you check Marquis' numbers that he is much more effective as a SG than as a SF for many of the reasons already mentioned. Is hard to go against history. He is a very versatile player. If he can gell with Nate and Von Wafer could be a nice Lineup - especially if you can put some height at PF and Center. Of course can also look at the juicy poss. of Bradley, MD and VW - three slashers with decent outside shooting and monster dunk potential. JO and BBD may be OK for the regular season; but will need Perk back in the mix for the playoffs.

As for the height digression, it is simply a matter of reach and leaping ability. BBD has neither. TA had both. Charles Barkley had both and a big booty to boot. Look at the number of dunks. BBD also has small hands.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I thought TA signed with Memphis. Maybe....what..? Get him back..!!! Make my day..! I doubt it, but I would take him back. TA is tough, for two reasons, one, he has heart, plays or tries hard, makes mistakes, yes, still sticks his neck out/in there. And, his "rough neighbor-hood" past keeps other players from really hitting him ...unlike what they did to the rest of our guys.

  As for MD, well, we seem to be stuck with him, so we will have to see if he can do anything. Maybe Luke will have the FORCE with him, or Avery, IF doc will ever play them (maybe in their 3rd year).

[Fan from VT]

Found this article published today that might be of interest:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/438787-the-boston-celtics-face-a-moment-of-truth

Some highlights:

This also brings up the question as to why Tony Allen has not signed with his new team yet.  One would think after he basically said he preferred playing time to ubuntu that he would sign his new contract already

Was there a pre-draft deal made between Chris Wallace and Danny Ainge that will only come to fruition once Allen signs his new deal?


I thought TA had signed with Memphis.

According to NBA Archives he has signed:

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=tony+allen&Team=&BeginDate=&EndDate=&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&submit=Search

And ESPN has him on the Memphis Roster:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=mem


So I don't know.

But, Would Memphis want a simple swap of Bradley for Henry? Would we do that?

Honestly, I have no idea what Memphis is doing with Henry, it's really bizarre.

[Roy H.]

Found this article published today that might be of interest:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/438787-the-boston-celtics-face-a-moment-of-truth

Some highlights:

This also brings up the question as to why Tony Allen has not signed with his new team yet.  One would think after he basically said he preferred playing time to ubuntu that he would sign his new contract already

Was there a pre-draft deal made between Chris Wallace and Danny Ainge that will only come to fruition once Allen signs his new deal?


I thought TA had signed with Memphis.

According to NBA Archives he has signed:

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=tony+allen&Team=&BeginDate=&EndDate=&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&submit=Search

And ESPN has him on the Memphis Roster:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=mem


So I don't know.

But, Would Memphis want a simple swap of Bradley for Henry? Would we do that?

Honestly, I have no idea what Memphis is doing with Henry, it's really bizarre.

Yeah, regarding Tony Allen, I'm not sure how the rumor started that he hadn't signed (which I've heard multiple times).  Memphis issued a press release announcing the signing on July 14:

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=327483

[ScoobyDoo]

Good points Gar and defiantely interesting re TAllen, if in fact he has not yet signed with Memphis. If he hasn't signed and we could resign him, I would.

If hea has signed but there is some deal hinging between the Celts and Memphis based on that signing that we are all unaware of...that may explain why Ainge has not yet signed another SF.

If I could put
TAllen and Gody behind Pierce
Marquis and Wafer behind Ray...
I'd feel alot better.

I think it makes sense that Marquis' number are best at the off guard spot because that's where he's ;hysically suited to play. It's hard to be effective if you are at a physical disadvantage from the gun...

I like Marquis' game quite a bit actually, just not from the three spot. I like him slashing mostly from the two and maybe playign a little point here and there, if necessary...

Agreed re Big Baby on lack of reach or leaping ability, but he still can at least manage there and brings value with his tough D on big guys and using his body to put muscle on people. He did board 7 a game with 15 points as a starter...

[BballTim]

Good points Gar and defiantely interesting re TAllen, if in fact he has not yet signed with Memphis. If he hasn't signed and we could resign him, I would.

If hea has signed but there is some deal hinging between the Celts and Memphis based on that signing that we are all unaware of...that may explain why Ainge has not yet signed another SF.

If I could put
TAllen and Gody behind Pierce
Marquis and Wafer behind Ray...
I'd feel alot better.

I think it makes sense that Marquis' number are best at the off guard spot because that's where he's ;hysically suited to play. It's hard to be effective if you are at a physical disadvantage from the gun...

I like Marquis' game quite a bit actually, just not from the three spot. I like him slashing mostly from the two and maybe playign a little point here and there, if necessary...

Agreed re Big Baby on lack of reach or leaping ability, but he still can at least manage there and brings value with his tough D on big guys and using his body to put muscle on people. He did board 7 a game with 15 points as a starter...

  If you bring back TA and you're playing Daniels and Allen as your backup wings you'd feel a lot better. But in your original post you were claiming that TA was a poor backup for Paul.