Author Topic: Miami Fans reaction to Shaq signing - Feel this means they'll get Perk next year  (Read 22754 times)

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Offline Mr October

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Agreed.  My point was that its all about the price.  If its at $5-6 million per year, great.  If it is 8-10 million per year, then suddenly he needs to be more than just a "useful piece".  But, hopefully the injury will keep him in the C's range to hold on to him. 
Well, at 5-6 he'll be a steal, at 8-10, a bit of a reach, but 6-8 will probably be a good deal, even towards the upper end of that range.

I think 8 million per year is right on. He's better than an MLE player, but not much. As nice a defender as he is, height wise he is undersized, has extremely limited offensive skill and is injury prone.


Offline kozlodoev

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I think 8 million per year is right on. He's better than an MLE player, but not much. As nice a defender as he is, height wise he is undersized, has extremely limited offensive skill and is injury prone.
I wouldn't say he's injury-prone, but leg and foot injuries are especially problematic for players who weight 250+ lbs. I didn't care much about the shoulder, but I'm worried about the knee, since all those pounds will be coming down on it night in and night out for ~100 games per season.
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Offline Mr October

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I think 8 million per year is right on. He's better than an MLE player, but not much. As nice a defender as he is, height wise he is undersized, has extremely limited offensive skill and is injury prone.
I wouldn't say he's injury-prone, but leg and foot injuries are especially problematic for players who weight 250+ lbs. I didn't care much about the shoulder, but I'm worried about the knee, since all those pounds will be coming down on it night in and night out for ~100 games per season.

same difference... injury / injuries are a concern going forward.

Offline Who

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Perkins is not worth more than the full MLE. The fact is that he has barely improved, if at all, since he signed his last contract. If Miami signs him, I can't say I'll be disappointed. Perkins is not rebuilding material.

  Of course he's improved since he signed his contract. That's nonsense. Put him on the Heat and their biggest weakness goes away. They'd be much less vulnerable than they are (or might be) now.

I agree completely.  While I am not sure he is the best fit as a building block for the C's going forward (beyond the next 1-2 years), because his next contract will likely be too big to fit in their plans (may not be the case after the injury though)
 

  Perk isn't a building block but he's a useful piece, if you  know what I mean. When we're rebuilding around Rondo and we still have PP for 2 years we'll need to replace Ray and KG. That's *much* easier than trying to replace Ray, KG and Perk.

Agreed.  My point was that its all about the price.  If its at $5-6 million per year, great.  If it is 8-10 million per year, then suddenly he needs to be more than just a "useful piece".  But, hopefully the injury will keep him in the C's range to hold on to him.  

Which asks another question.

Do you open negotiations with Perk this summer for an extension?  Perk may be more amenable to taking a reasonably contract extension now (something like 3/$20M).  While he's rehabbing, the value of long-term security may be more valuable to Perk than a couple extra million per year.

If he comes back and plays well, I don't see how he signs for anything less than $8M or $9M annually.  I wouldn't be shocked to see him get something like 5/$50M.  He may not be WORTH that much, but if there's one thing you can guarantee is that NBA GMs will overpay for big men.

I don't think Danny wants to even go there - he wants as much 2012 flexibility as he can get - but do you take a chance on re-signing Perk when his value might be depressed?  

Or, are they planning on watching him walk?
I would rather wait to see if Perkins can make a full recovery from his injury.

Being stuck with a less effective Perk at $7 million per year + Pierce's contract would make rebuilding overly difficult.

I think the downside -- if Perk can't get back to his best -- outweighs the advantage of getting him at a lower price.

Offline LooseCannon

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If Perk's comeback is delayed until March and his play is such that he doesn't get back his starting job for the rest of the season, how much would you be willing to give Perkins?

If some other team is willing to massively overpay Perkins, what is the price point where you would just let him walk away?  You can put a different dollar figure on the cases of Perkins being full recovered and Perk appearing to have lost a step and making you think that he won't be as good as he was before the injury, but you're not sure how much he has declined.
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Offline Chris

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Perkins is not worth more than the full MLE. The fact is that he has barely improved, if at all, since he signed his last contract. If Miami signs him, I can't say I'll be disappointed. Perkins is not rebuilding material.

  Of course he's improved since he signed his contract. That's nonsense. Put him on the Heat and their biggest weakness goes away. They'd be much less vulnerable than they are (or might be) now.

I agree completely.  While I am not sure he is the best fit as a building block for the C's going forward (beyond the next 1-2 years), because his next contract will likely be too big to fit in their plans (may not be the case after the injury though)
 

  Perk isn't a building block but he's a useful piece, if you  know what I mean. When we're rebuilding around Rondo and we still have PP for 2 years we'll need to replace Ray and KG. That's *much* easier than trying to replace Ray, KG and Perk.

Agreed.  My point was that its all about the price.  If its at $5-6 million per year, great.  If it is 8-10 million per year, then suddenly he needs to be more than just a "useful piece".  But, hopefully the injury will keep him in the C's range to hold on to him.  

Which asks another question.

Do you open negotiations with Perk this summer for an extension?  Perk may be more amenable to taking a reasonably contract extension now (something like 3/$20M).  While he's rehabbing, the value of long-term security may be more valuable to Perk than a couple extra million per year.

If he comes back and plays well, I don't see how he signs for anything less than $8M or $9M annually.  I wouldn't be shocked to see him get something like 5/$50M.  He may not be WORTH that much, but if there's one thing you can guarantee is that NBA GMs will overpay for big men.

I don't think Danny wants to even go there - he wants as much 2012 flexibility as he can get - but do you take a chance on re-signing Perk when his value might be depressed?  

Or, are they planning on watching him walk?
I would rather wait to see if Perkins can make a full recovery from his injury.

Being stuck with a less effective Perk at $7 million per year + Pierce's contract would make rebuilding overly difficult.

I think the downside -- if Perk can't get back to his best -- outweighs the advantage of getting him at a lower price.

I agree. Unless he is willing to take a huge discount (like 4-5 million per year)...which I doubt he is...the best bet is to wait it out.  Chances are his agent is not going to let him take a huge discount this summer, and given the possibility of the lockout next summer, and the new CBA, there just is too much risk to sign him now. 

Worst case scenario, they sign and trade him and get a large trade exception. 

Most likely though, I think he will come back, and not have enough time to fully prove his worth, so he will resign to a 2-3 year deal at reasonable money (5-6 million per), hoping to make big money on his next deal.

Offline Celtics4ever

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One reason is that Shaq hurt CLE is CLE had no reliable jump shooters.  King James can't shoot his FG rarely is above 50% with tons of dunks and layups.  Shaq need guys who can shoot the rock to spread the floor with him.   We have that , CLE did not.

Offline the_Bird

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Perkins is not worth more than the full MLE. The fact is that he has barely improved, if at all, since he signed his last contract. If Miami signs him, I can't say I'll be disappointed. Perkins is not rebuilding material.

  Of course he's improved since he signed his contract. That's nonsense. Put him on the Heat and their biggest weakness goes away. They'd be much less vulnerable than they are (or might be) now.

I agree completely.  While I am not sure he is the best fit as a building block for the C's going forward (beyond the next 1-2 years), because his next contract will likely be too big to fit in their plans (may not be the case after the injury though)
 

  Perk isn't a building block but he's a useful piece, if you  know what I mean. When we're rebuilding around Rondo and we still have PP for 2 years we'll need to replace Ray and KG. That's *much* easier than trying to replace Ray, KG and Perk.

Agreed.  My point was that its all about the price.  If its at $5-6 million per year, great.  If it is 8-10 million per year, then suddenly he needs to be more than just a "useful piece".  But, hopefully the injury will keep him in the C's range to hold on to him.  

Which asks another question.

Do you open negotiations with Perk this summer for an extension?  Perk may be more amenable to taking a reasonably contract extension now (something like 3/$20M).  While he's rehabbing, the value of long-term security may be more valuable to Perk than a couple extra million per year.

If he comes back and plays well, I don't see how he signs for anything less than $8M or $9M annually.  I wouldn't be shocked to see him get something like 5/$50M.  He may not be WORTH that much, but if there's one thing you can guarantee is that NBA GMs will overpay for big men.

I don't think Danny wants to even go there - he wants as much 2012 flexibility as he can get - but do you take a chance on re-signing Perk when his value might be depressed?  

Or, are they planning on watching him walk?
I would rather wait to see if Perkins can make a full recovery from his injury.

Being stuck with a less effective Perk at $7 million per year + Pierce's contract would make rebuilding overly difficult.

I think the downside -- if Perk can't get back to his best -- outweighs the advantage of getting him at a lower price.

I agree. Unless he is willing to take a huge discount (like 4-5 million per year)...which I doubt he is...the best bet is to wait it out.  Chances are his agent is not going to let him take a huge discount this summer, and given the possibility of the lockout next summer, and the new CBA, there just is too much risk to sign him now. 

Worst case scenario, they sign and trade him and get a large trade exception. 

Most likely though, I think he will come back, and not have enough time to fully prove his worth, so he will resign to a 2-3 year deal at reasonable money (5-6 million per), hoping to make big money on his next deal.

I'm fine either way - extend him, or wait it out - but I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Perk signs next summer for something like 3/$18.  That's basically what Brad Miller and Darko got this summer. 

Perk (and his agent) aren't going to be waiting for his big payday any longer.  Perk's young, but he's been in the league a while, he's solidly in his prime.  He's had enough injury concerns (with things like knees, that can be problematic long-term) where I'm not sure he can count on still being an effective player well into his thirties.  Kind of makes me think of JO, who came right from high school even though he didn't play a lot initially, but had some injury issues and now he's seen his career slow down in his early 30s.  THIS is the contract for Perk to get paid.

Unless Perk comes back and is totally ineffective, I just think the numbers you're bandying about are extremely optimistic. 

Of course, with the new CBA, all bets are off. 

Offline Chris

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Perkins is not worth more than the full MLE. The fact is that he has barely improved, if at all, since he signed his last contract. If Miami signs him, I can't say I'll be disappointed. Perkins is not rebuilding material.

  Of course he's improved since he signed his contract. That's nonsense. Put him on the Heat and their biggest weakness goes away. They'd be much less vulnerable than they are (or might be) now.

I agree completely.  While I am not sure he is the best fit as a building block for the C's going forward (beyond the next 1-2 years), because his next contract will likely be too big to fit in their plans (may not be the case after the injury though)
 

  Perk isn't a building block but he's a useful piece, if you  know what I mean. When we're rebuilding around Rondo and we still have PP for 2 years we'll need to replace Ray and KG. That's *much* easier than trying to replace Ray, KG and Perk.

Agreed.  My point was that its all about the price.  If its at $5-6 million per year, great.  If it is 8-10 million per year, then suddenly he needs to be more than just a "useful piece".  But, hopefully the injury will keep him in the C's range to hold on to him.  

Which asks another question.

Do you open negotiations with Perk this summer for an extension?  Perk may be more amenable to taking a reasonably contract extension now (something like 3/$20M).  While he's rehabbing, the value of long-term security may be more valuable to Perk than a couple extra million per year.

If he comes back and plays well, I don't see how he signs for anything less than $8M or $9M annually.  I wouldn't be shocked to see him get something like 5/$50M.  He may not be WORTH that much, but if there's one thing you can guarantee is that NBA GMs will overpay for big men.

I don't think Danny wants to even go there - he wants as much 2012 flexibility as he can get - but do you take a chance on re-signing Perk when his value might be depressed?  

Or, are they planning on watching him walk?
I would rather wait to see if Perkins can make a full recovery from his injury.

Being stuck with a less effective Perk at $7 million per year + Pierce's contract would make rebuilding overly difficult.

I think the downside -- if Perk can't get back to his best -- outweighs the advantage of getting him at a lower price.

I agree. Unless he is willing to take a huge discount (like 4-5 million per year)...which I doubt he is...the best bet is to wait it out.  Chances are his agent is not going to let him take a huge discount this summer, and given the possibility of the lockout next summer, and the new CBA, there just is too much risk to sign him now. 

Worst case scenario, they sign and trade him and get a large trade exception. 

Most likely though, I think he will come back, and not have enough time to fully prove his worth, so he will resign to a 2-3 year deal at reasonable money (5-6 million per), hoping to make big money on his next deal.

I'm fine either way - extend him, or wait it out - but I would be absolutely flabbergasted if Perk signs next summer for something like 3/$18.  That's basically what Brad Miller and Darko got this summer. 

Perk (and his agent) aren't going to be waiting for his big payday any longer.  Perk's young, but he's been in the league a while, he's solidly in his prime.  He's had enough injury concerns (with things like knees, that can be problematic long-term) where I'm not sure he can count on still being an effective player well into his thirties.  Kind of makes me think of JO, who came right from high school even though he didn't play a lot initially, but had some injury issues and now he's seen his career slow down in his early 30s.  THIS is the contract for Perk to get paid.

Unless Perk comes back and is totally ineffective, I just think the numbers you're bandying about are extremely optimistic. 

Of course, with the new CBA, all bets are off. 


You are right.  The more I think about it, if Perk does not get the longterm deal he wants, it may be more like 1 year/$6 million.

Perk is looking for his big deal.  I think he will take a short deal to prove his health, if no one is willing to shell out the big money for a longterm deal this summer.

Offline BballTim

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One reason is that Shaq hurt CLE is CLE had no reliable jump shooters.  King James can't shoot his FG rarely is above 50% with tons of dunks and layups.  Shaq need guys who can shoot the rock to spread the floor with him.   We have that , CLE did not.

  Cleveland was 2nd in the league in 3 point fg% last year.

Offline Celtics4ever

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Maybe in regular season what were they in the playoffs, BballTim?  They shot a woeful .28% against us.  King James shot .44 % fg and .27% from the trey line.  Mo Williams shot .40% fg and .20% from 3p land.  Delonte shot .37 % from FG.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2009/conf_semi_stats.html

No good outside shooters killed them in the playoffs.   They had shooters when it didn't matter, well didn't they?  We were able to stop them and they could not bust the outside shots.  Midrange jumpers are where you break a defense's back not treys.  Teams with good mid range jumpshooters do well.  Look at Jordan and Kobe, both better mid range jumpers than trey shooters.  Look at LeBron classic no mid range jumper and classic easy out in the playoffs or sweep.   The mid range jumper makes a team pay.  Most teams will give you a three now and again and dare you to make them.  Good teams will challenge them sure, but if you can pull up and shoot , they don't know if your driving or shooting and you are master of your basketball fate.

The best way to beat a poor shooter like LeBron is to let him jumpers.  Sure he might get hot once in a while, but he will own you with penetration.  He will beat himself with his jumper which is very mediocre.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 11:10:30 PM by Celtics4ever »

Offline BballTim

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Maybe in regular season what were they in the playoffs, BballTim?  They shot a woeful .28% against us.  King James shot .44 % fg and .27% from the trey line.  Mo Williams shot .40% fg and .20% from 3p land.  Delonte shot .37 % from FG.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2009/conf_semi_stats.html

No good outside shooters killed them in the playoffs.   They had shooters when it didn't matter, well didn't they?  We were able to stop them and they could not bust the outside shots.  Midrange jumpers are where you break a defense's back not treys.  Teams with good mid range jumpshooters do well.  Look at Jordan and Kobe, both better mid range jumpers than trey shooters.  Look at LeBron classic no mid range jumper and classic easy out in the playoffs or sweep.   The mid range jumper makes a team pay.  Most teams will give you a three now and again and dare you to make them.  Good teams will challenge them sure, but if you can pull up and shoot , they don't know if your driving or shooting and you are master of your basketball fate.

The best way to beat a poor shooter like LeBron is to let him jumpers.  Sure he might get hot once in a while, but he will own you with penetration.  He will beat himself with his jumper which is very mediocre.

  They shot 40% on threes vs the Bulls. They couldn't hit them against us because of our great defense, not because they had no shooters. Most teams try and avoid taking longer 2 point jump shots because it's a much less efficient way to score than a 3 or an inside shot. The Celts try and run players off the three point shot even if it means an open shot from 20 feet because it's better for the defense to give up that shot. And forcing LeBron to take jumpers is much easier said than done. It's kind of like saying the easiest way to defend Dwight Howard is to force him to take jump shots.

Offline Celtics4ever

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LeBron is a very unreliable shooter.  His fg % is vastly inflated by his dunks and layups.   You have to stay in front of him, which is what Tony Allen did so well.  That is the key to LeBron.  I still think making LeBron shoot will be the key to beating MIA, that and Bosh.  Force them out and clog the lane. 

One could make Dwight shoot jumpers easy with a double team.  We won't do that as we can play him straight up.   But all it takes is a front post defender and a help post defender.  Hasleem we can double when he is playing Z would make you pay with his jumper.

Shaq will be fine with our shooters.  I hope Doc uses him in the high post because his passing is superb.  He could toss it out to the wing and drop low or pick for Rondo.   If we use a scheme like that he won't be a hindrance.

Offline BballTim

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LeBron is a very unreliable shooter.  His fg % is vastly inflated by his dunks and layups.   You have to stay in front of him, which is what Tony Allen did so well.  That is the key to LeBron.  I still think making LeBron shoot will be the key to beating MIA, that and Bosh.  Force them out and clog the lane. 


  Of course all you have to do is stay in front of LeBron. The problem is that very few players in the league can accomplish this.

Offline Snakehead

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LeBron is a very unreliable shooter.  His fg % is vastly inflated by his dunks and layups.   You have to stay in front of him, which is what Tony Allen did so well.  That is the key to LeBron.  I still think making LeBron shoot will be the key to beating MIA, that and Bosh.  Force them out and clog the lane.  


  Of course all you have to do is stay in front of LeBron. The problem is that very few players in the league can accomplish this.

Nevermind that he will be playing with another of the leagues top 3 players and maybe it's second best slasher in Wade (next to LeBron himself) and he will be playing with one of the leagues best pick and roll big men.

That's the problem.  As the Celtics proved in the playoffs we can stop these one man teams but when both LBJ and Wade are out there with Bosh... it gets so much harder.  How can you really provide help?  You can try to clog the lane but you can't camp out and these guys can exploit any opening to the rim.
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