Paul is better than Rondo

[BballTim]

One other thing people might not be aware of:  Rondo is only nine months younger than Paul.  For people who say that Rondo can improve...  so can Paul.

  While this is true, I'd expect more improvement from Rondo because IMO he was farther from his ceiling last year than Paul was. A lot of it depends on how well the big three play, however. Rondo's clearly capable of scoring at least 16-18 points a game but he'd just as soon keep the big three involved in the game as carve out a bigger role on offense for himself.

what are CPs and Rondo's ceilings based on for you?

  First of all, CP came into the league a lot more polished and nba ready than Rondo (hence their spots in their drafts) so IMO CP has improved a lot less since he came into the league than Rondo has. There's no real way to put a value on their exact ceilings. But what if you chose the Cavs series for Rondo? Think of the improvement from Rondo's game last season (14/5/10) to that player. Would you expect Paul (pre-injury, of course) to improve anywhere near that much?

[wiley]

Rondo is a grittier player, and by virtue of his incredible basketball brain does a lot of things that Paul will never do.  Paul has always had more overall talent.  But he has less of a basketball brain, and has yet to show Rondo's level of grit imo (some of the grit is a result of the off-charts bbIQ, staying in a play when other fall asleep, etc).  When Paul inspires awe it's not because of his amazing smarts, it's because he can take over a game offensively while still providing excellent PG play, quite a package.

I think a lot of people are overrating Rondo's BBIQ.  Didn't we all just watch the playoffs, where for entire games Rondo refused to penetrate, and would simply dribble to the top of the key before bringing the ball back out?  Didn't we see other games where he failed to get the ball to Paul Pierce, who at times was the hottest player on the court?   Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times?  Didn't we see a play break down at the end of a half in the playoffs because Rondo refused to run the play to Pierce as directed by Doc?

I guess I'm just not seeing the tremendous BBIQ that he possesses but that CP3 doesn't.  Both are excellent point guards, but both make their share of mistakes, as well.  

IQ in that sense, I guess you're right.....including the occasional wild pass, etc...

But I'm trying to get at something different, maybe it's what people call "it" factor.  I'd like to call it "grit plus brains" or something along those lines.

For example, Rondo's near-steal at the end of game 7 against the Lakers?  Can Paul make that play?  I know Chris Paul is a good thief, but what about in those particular kinds of situations?
Rondo, to me, has the kind of basketball brain that allows him to routinely make plays like that one....(granted it was a near great play).  This quality I'm talking about that he possesses is the quality responsible for Rondo entering the Celtic record books in a few categories, including that amazing game in Cleveland.  Basically, I think people are underrating Rondo's "it" factor, tossing it off as "flair" or "occasional brilliance" or something like that.  To me it's not flair or occasional brilliance, it's his modus operandi and routine brilliance, all due to "it" factor, which I'm calling grit plus brains.....

In this area  I think Rondo is #1 in the league today.  I don't think any player today is as switched on as Rondo.  That's why it's not a slam on Chris Paul that I'm rating Rondo higher in that area.  So the argument to me is whether or not Chris Paul's outside game and free throw shooting can make up for the area I described above, in which I give Rondo a huge edge.  

I don't have the answer to that.  But if Chris Paul and Rondo had to play each other every night on team's with equal talent, I think it would come out very even.  When Paul's shot is falling (or Rondo's layups aren't falling), he'd end up with the edge.  When it's not,  Rondo would have the edge.....IMO over the course of a year's worth of head to head games, however, Rondo's "it" factor would put him in front because he'd be affecting more areas of the game.

[Bankshot]

One other thing people might not be aware of:  Rondo is only nine months younger than Paul.  For people who say that Rondo can improve...  so can Paul.

  While this is true, I'd expect more improvement from Rondo because IMO he was farther from his ceiling last year than Paul was. A lot of it depends on how well the big three play, however. Rondo's clearly capable of scoring at least 16-18 points a game but he'd just as soon keep the big three involved in the game as carve out a bigger role on offense for himself.

what are CPs and Rondo's ceilings based on for you?

  First of all, CP came into the league a lot more polished and nba ready than Rondo (hence their spots in their drafts) so IMO CP has improved a lot less since he came into the league than Rondo has. There's no real way to put a value on their exact ceilings. But what if you chose the Cavs series for Rondo? Think of the improvement from Rondo's game last season (14/5/10) to that player. Would you expect Paul (pre-injury, of course) to improve anywhere near that much?

Whose fault is that?  Rondo went to college just like Paul.  It's not like Rondo came straight out of high school.

[BballTim]

I think a lot of people are overrating Rondo's BBIQ.  Didn't we all just watch the playoffs, where for entire games Rondo refused to penetrate, and would simply dribble to the top of the key before bringing the ball back out?  Didn't we see other games where he failed to get the ball to Paul Pierce, who at times was the hottest player on the court?   Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times?  Didn't we see a play break down at the end of a half in the playoffs because Rondo refused to run the play to Pierce as directed by Doc?

I guess I'm just not seeing the tremendous BBIQ that he possesses but that CP3 doesn't.  Both are excellent point guards, but both make their share of mistakes, as well.  

  I think a lot more people blame Pierce (for pulling mini Pippin) than Rondo for that broken play. I'd rephrase "Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times" to "he had a few short spells where he was careless with the ball over a 24 game stretch" and not an indication of a low BBIQ. And which games did he refuse to penetrate in? Which part of which series?

  I think if you spent a few months watching Chris Paul, if you watched him with the same critical eye you watch Rondo with, you'd be hesitant to trade Sheed and Ray Allen for him.

[Roy Hobbs]

I think a lot of people are overrating Rondo's BBIQ.  Didn't we all just watch the playoffs, where for entire games Rondo refused to penetrate, and would simply dribble to the top of the key before bringing the ball back out?  Didn't we see other games where he failed to get the ball to Paul Pierce, who at times was the hottest player on the court?   Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times?  Didn't we see a play break down at the end of a half in the playoffs because Rondo refused to run the play to Pierce as directed by Doc?

I guess I'm just not seeing the tremendous BBIQ that he possesses but that CP3 doesn't.  Both are excellent point guards, but both make their share of mistakes, as well.  

  I think a lot more people blame Pierce (for pulling mini Pippin) than Rondo for that broken play. I'd rephrase "Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times" to "he had a few short spells where he was careless with the ball over a 24 game stretch" and not an indication of a low BBIQ. And which games did he refuse to penetrate in? Which part of which series?

  I think if you spent a few months watching Chris Paul, if you watched him with the same critical eye you watch Rondo with, you'd be hesitant to trade Sheed and Ray Allen for him.

I'm not saying that Rondo has a low BBIQ.  I just don't think it's tremendously high, either. 

As for the play with Pierce, PP deserves blame for walking away, but at the end of that half, Doc put the blame squarely on Rondo's shoulders (which surprised me.)

Rondo is a work in progress, but I just don't see anything that differentiates his BBIQ from Chris Paul's.  Both players have excellent court vision overall, both know how to push the ball, etc.  I do think CP3 is more consistent, but Rondo has made strides in that area.

[BballTim]

One other thing people might not be aware of:  Rondo is only nine months younger than Paul.  For people who say that Rondo can improve...  so can Paul.

  While this is true, I'd expect more improvement from Rondo because IMO he was farther from his ceiling last year than Paul was. A lot of it depends on how well the big three play, however. Rondo's clearly capable of scoring at least 16-18 points a game but he'd just as soon keep the big three involved in the game as carve out a bigger role on offense for himself.

what are CPs and Rondo's ceilings based on for you?

  First of all, CP came into the league a lot more polished and nba ready than Rondo (hence their spots in their drafts) so IMO CP has improved a lot less since he came into the league than Rondo has. There's no real way to put a value on their exact ceilings. But what if you chose the Cavs series for Rondo? Think of the improvement from Rondo's game last season (14/5/10) to that player. Would you expect Paul (pre-injury, of course) to improve anywhere near that much?

Whose fault is that?  Rondo went to college just like Paul.  It's not like Rondo came straight out of high school.

  Why would it be anyone's fault? Players develop at different rates. Players make "the jump" at different ages. Rondo's "development" (in terms of how much he accomplishes individually) was stunted by the fact that he didn't play much without the big three, and he's trying to win titles, not put up great stats. Clearly he's shown that he's capable of great things, but clearly he's trying to subjugate his game to fit it in with the big three (just like they are).

[BballTim]

I think a lot of people are overrating Rondo's BBIQ.  Didn't we all just watch the playoffs, where for entire games Rondo refused to penetrate, and would simply dribble to the top of the key before bringing the ball back out?  Didn't we see other games where he failed to get the ball to Paul Pierce, who at times was the hottest player on the court?   Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times?  Didn't we see a play break down at the end of a half in the playoffs because Rondo refused to run the play to Pierce as directed by Doc?

I guess I'm just not seeing the tremendous BBIQ that he possesses but that CP3 doesn't.  Both are excellent point guards, but both make their share of mistakes, as well.  

  I think a lot more people blame Pierce (for pulling mini Pippin) than Rondo for that broken play. I'd rephrase "Didn't we see him start to force a lot of bad passes at times" to "he had a few short spells where he was careless with the ball over a 24 game stretch" and not an indication of a low BBIQ. And which games did he refuse to penetrate in? Which part of which series?

  I think if you spent a few months watching Chris Paul, if you watched him with the same critical eye you watch Rondo with, you'd be hesitant to trade Sheed and Ray Allen for him.

I'm not saying that Rondo has a low BBIQ.  I just don't think it's tremendously high, either. 

As for the play with Pierce, PP deserves blame for walking away, but at the end of that half, Doc put the blame squarely on Rondo's shoulders (which surprised me.)

Rondo is a work in progress, but I just don't see anything that differentiates his BBIQ from Chris Paul's.  Both players have excellent court vision overall, both know how to push the ball, etc.  I do think CP3 is more consistent, but Rondo has made strides in that area.

  I think it's more a case of their roles on the team than consistency. Rondo doesn't have the ball in his hands as often as Paul does and when he does have the ball he's managing a balanced team with talented players. He doesn't go into games with the expectation that he's going to score 20+ points. If he did, he'd *appear* to be more consistent, just like CP.

[wdleehi]

  Whatever. I guess if you get top decide what arguments people are allowed to make, it probably increases your chances of winning the argument. Other than that, I don't see your point.

No one is telling you what argument to make or not to make.  I am pointing out the flaw I see.


But if your only argument to my point is "I guess if you get top decide what arguments people are allowed to make, it probably increases your chances of winning the argument"; then your original argument must have been weak.

  You're pointing out the "flaw" you see in my argument, but that same "flaw" exists in about half the posts here. You're being totally arbitrary.

  Is it pointless to argue that Rondo will likely improve more than CP if we don't *know* that he will?

  Yes.

  Is it pointless to argue that the offense will be better with CP than it is with Rondo when we don't *know* it will be?

  No.

  Go figure.

I didn't argue that.


I said trade for the better player.

  Are you saying that when you quoted my post and said "No." you weren't responding to anything in my post?

You mean where I wrote

No.  If one player is better then the other, why wouldn't you want the other player?

Is Rondo going to be healthy over the next couple of years?  He takes more big hits then most guys his size.   

Again, we do not know.  Neither has had a recurring injury. 

I will agree that my late night English wasn't very good, but I did not mention "run the offense better"


I think it is fair to project who the team would want more based on which player is better.

[drza44]

I'm not really sure I see the pro-Rondo argument here.  Rondo's value seems to be tied into his excellent passing/ball-handling ability and his point guard skills on offense, his ability to disrupt on defense, and his rebounding ability from the PG slot.  Paul is as good as rondo (at least) as a distributor and floor general, he is at least as good as a penetrator, is a better finisher in the paint, has a much, MUCH better mid-range and out game, and is a similar disruptor on defense.  And while he isn't quite the rebounder that Rondo is, Paul is one of the best rebounding point guards in the NBA.

I guess in the end, I don't see how this is a comparison.  Outside of Rondo being a Celtic, I can't find any aspect of the game where he's appreciably better than Paul whereas Paul is dramatically better than Rondo at some of the most important aspects of the game.

[winsomme]

One other thing people might not be aware of:  Rondo is only nine months younger than Paul.  For people who say that Rondo can improve...  so can Paul.

  While this is true, I'd expect more improvement from Rondo because IMO he was farther from his ceiling last year than Paul was. A lot of it depends on how well the big three play, however. Rondo's clearly capable of scoring at least 16-18 points a game but he'd just as soon keep the big three involved in the game as carve out a bigger role on offense for himself.

what are CPs and Rondo's ceilings based on for you?

  First of all, CP came into the league a lot more polished and nba ready than Rondo (hence their spots in their drafts) so IMO CP has improved a lot less since he came into the league than Rondo has. There's no real way to put a value on their exact ceilings. But what if you chose the Cavs series for Rondo? Think of the improvement from Rondo's game last season (14/5/10) to that player. Would you expect Paul (pre-injury, of course) to improve anywhere near that much?

No I wouldn't expect that much improvement in CP3 relative to his own ceiling, but I do think CPs ceiling is higher which is more important to me than how much each improves relative to their own ceiling.

For me, I expect CP throughout his career to be a better offensive player than Rajon (unless like you've mentioned his knee becomes a chronic problem movign forward). So I tend to agree with the people noting that the Cs offense would improve with CP at PG. I consider the FT shooting and getting to the line probably the biggest factors in that improvement.....also teams couldn't sag off on Paul the way Kobe was doing to RR in the Finals...

If Rajon is our PG (which I certainly would not be disappointed in...love watching him play), my biggest hope is he improves his FT shooting. It simply has to happen.

anyway, just out of curiosity....since you brought up the CLE series for RRs ceiling, why don't you think he played at that level in the Finals?

[BballTim]

One other thing people might not be aware of:  Rondo is only nine months younger than Paul.  For people who say that Rondo can improve...  so can Paul.

  While this is true, I'd expect more improvement from Rondo because IMO he was farther from his ceiling last year than Paul was. A lot of it depends on how well the big three play, however. Rondo's clearly capable of scoring at least 16-18 points a game but he'd just as soon keep the big three involved in the game as carve out a bigger role on offense for himself.

what are CPs and Rondo's ceilings based on for you?

  First of all, CP came into the league a lot more polished and nba ready than Rondo (hence their spots in their drafts) so IMO CP has improved a lot less since he came into the league than Rondo has. There's no real way to put a value on their exact ceilings. But what if you chose the Cavs series for Rondo? Think of the improvement from Rondo's game last season (14/5/10) to that player. Would you expect Paul (pre-injury, of course) to improve anywhere near that much?

No I wouldn't expect that much improvement in CP3 relative to his own ceiling, but I do think CPs ceiling is higher which is more important to me than how much each improves relative to their own ceiling.

  Which may be true, but it's not what was being discussed.

[drza44]

Re: Rondo's Cleveland series.

In a way, I think that series has become fools gold for Celtics fans on the order of Perkins' ability to defend Dwight Howard.  The rationale for both instances is that since our young guy has accomplished this against a great player (or team), that means that our young guy will one day be able to do it against everyone.  That's not necessarily true.

Rondo against Cleveland (and Perkins against Howard) fit very well into their strength/weakness skill set.  Perkins has the size/strength to body up and defend against someone of similar size whose entire game is built on force...but he's weaker against guys much bigger (like Yao/Bogut, for example) or players that can go to the perimeter.  He's limited.  He's very good at what he does, and he's valuable for that, but he's not close to the best big-man defender in the NBA (which I sometimes see people saying, using his D on Howard as evidence).

Similarly, Rondo is quick and athletic enough to get into the paint/to the rim against any perimeter defender as long as the hand-check rules are being enforced.  We know this, and have known it for 2 full seasons now.  Cleveland had no one capable of defending the rim.  Therefore, Rondo was able to torch them repeatedly.  But on the flip side, if a team has dominant rim-defenders among their bigs then suddenly Rondo is human.  We saw that against the Magic in '09 and '10, and again against the Lakers in '10.

For Rondo to be able to replicate his Cavs performance against a team with a dominant inside defense, he'd have to become dramatically better with his midrange-out game as well as becoming a much better free throw shooter.  At which point he would become...Chris Paul.

[GreenFaith1819]

Re: Rondo's Cleveland series.

In a way, I think that series has become fools gold for Celtics fans on the order of Perkins' ability to defend Dwight Howard.  The rationale for both instances is that since our young guy has accomplished this against a great player (or team), that means that our young guy will one day be able to do it against everyone.  That's not necessarily true.

Rondo against Cleveland (and Perkins against Howard) fit very well into their strength/weakness skill set.  Perkins has the size/strength to body up and defend against someone of similar size whose entire game is built on force...but he's weaker against guys much bigger (like Yao/Bogut, for example) or players that can go to the perimeter.  He's limited.  He's very good at what he does, and he's valuable for that, but he's not close to the best big-man defender in the NBA (which I sometimes see people saying, using his D on Howard as evidence).

Similarly, Rondo is quick and athletic enough to get into the paint/to the rim against any perimeter defender as long as the hand-check rules are being enforced.  We know this, and have known it for 2 full seasons now.  Cleveland had no one capable of defending the rim.  Therefore, Rondo was able to torch them repeatedly.  But on the flip side, if a team has dominant rim-defenders among their bigs then suddenly Rondo is human.  We saw that against the Magic in '09 and '10, and again against the Lakers in '10.

For Rondo to be able to replicate his Cavs performance against a team with a dominant inside defense, he'd have to become dramatically better with his midrange-out game as well as becoming a much better free throw shooter.  At which point he would become...Chris Paul.

And which Rondo is progressing towards.

One more reason why I think Rondo (right now) would torch MIA in a series. Who will guard him? Wade (and leave Ray open)? Lebron (and let Pierce roam free)?

Who will stop Rondo from getting to the rim against MIA? Bosh?

And this is why, I think, keeping Rondo on this team (and no further injuries), we'd beat CHI, MIA, ORL and LA next year.

[winsomme]

One other thing people might not be aware of:  Rondo is only nine months younger than Paul.  For people who say that Rondo can improve...  so can Paul.

  While this is true, I'd expect more improvement from Rondo because IMO he was farther from his ceiling last year than Paul was. A lot of it depends on how well the big three play, however. Rondo's clearly capable of scoring at least 16-18 points a game but he'd just as soon keep the big three involved in the game as carve out a bigger role on offense for himself.

what are CPs and Rondo's ceilings based on for you?

  First of all, CP came into the league a lot more polished and nba ready than Rondo (hence their spots in their drafts) so IMO CP has improved a lot less since he came into the league than Rondo has. There's no real way to put a value on their exact ceilings. But what if you chose the Cavs series for Rondo? Think of the improvement from Rondo's game last season (14/5/10) to that player. Would you expect Paul (pre-injury, of course) to improve anywhere near that much?

No I wouldn't expect that much improvement in CP3 relative to his own ceiling, but I do think CPs ceiling is higher which is more important to me than how much each improves relative to their own ceiling.

  Which may be true, but it's not what was being discussed.

Well I thought someone brought up the idea that comparing how much room Rondo has to improve is less relevant than how much he is actually expected to improve relative to that amount of room.

I mean, CP has already played at an MVP level so it seems what was being pointed out is that the positive impact of adding that kind of talent to the Cs offense is more likely than say Rondo playing at the level he did in the CLE series....

but I'm curious as to why you don't think RR played at that level in the Finals....I think it could speak to the likelihood of that kind of improvement actually happening for RR as a player...

[Fafnir]

Re: Rondo's Cleveland series.

In a way, I think that series has become fools gold for Celtics fans on the order of Perkins' ability to defend Dwight Howard.  The rationale for both instances is that since our young guy has accomplished this against a great player (or team), that means that our young guy will one day be able to do it against everyone.  That's not necessarily true.

Rondo against Cleveland (and Perkins against Howard) fit very well into their strength/weakness skill set.  Perkins has the size/strength to body up and defend against someone of similar size whose entire game is built on force...but he's weaker against guys much bigger (like Yao/Bogut, for example) or players that can go to the perimeter.  He's limited.  He's very good at what he does, and he's valuable for that, but he's not close to the best big-man defender in the NBA (which I sometimes see people saying, using his D on Howard as evidence).

Similarly, Rondo is quick and athletic enough to get into the paint/to the rim against any perimeter defender as long as the hand-check rules are being enforced.  We know this, and have known it for 2 full seasons now.  Cleveland had no one capable of defending the rim.  Therefore, Rondo was able to torch them repeatedly.  But on the flip side, if a team has dominant rim-defenders among their bigs then suddenly Rondo is human.  We saw that against the Magic in '09 and '10, and again against the Lakers in '10.

For Rondo to be able to replicate his Cavs performance against a team with a dominant inside defense, he'd have to become dramatically better with his midrange-out game as well as becoming a much better free throw shooter.  At which point he would become...Chris Paul.

And which Rondo is progressing towards.

How so?

His free throw shooting and outside shooting have not improved in three years.