Author Topic: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)  (Read 12800 times)

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To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« on: April 20, 2010, 01:58:24 PM »

Offline drza44

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As many of you know, I've never hidden the fact that Kevin Garnett is my favorite player and has been since the last millenium.  Thus, it's not surprising that I didn't particularly enjoy Dwyer's article on why he is hated (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Why-we-don-t-like-Kevin-Garnett-any-more?urn=nba,235155).  The thing is, as a writer myself, what irks me most about Dwyer's article isn't the conclusion (it's pretty much a fact that Garnett is more hated now than ever before), it's the laziness of Dwyer's reasoning and analysis.  He essentially wrote an article that I could have taken from any of the many message board posters on any NBA board that starts off "I used to like KG, but now he's a Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline....".  And for a message board post, that's fine.  But for someone like Dwyer, who purports to be an analytical writer on a mainstream outlet, it's very unsatisfying.  It's like if he wrote an article saying that the Lakers  were a great team because Kobe scores a lot of points.  Yes, there are some hints of truth in there, but the actual story goes much deeper and if you take that extra step you get (to me) a more realistic conclusion.

My take on why KG is now hated?  I'll give you a one-line answer, then I'll develop it.  The short answer is: Garnett is unpopular because he angered some of the most rabid fan bases in basketball, and didn't have a strong enough fan base of his own to stem the tide.  It's that simple.  But for a more detailed look at how I got here, let's start by showing where Dwyer's piece comes up short then we can get more into what actually has happened in the last two years.

My synopsis of Dwyer's article is that Garnett has always had "Perpetual displays of emotion and rage and over-wrought warrior-isms", but that he does it more now than ever before because he's now too old to make the impact that he used to.  The thing is, I cry BS on the line of reasoning that he does it so much more now.  Dwyer never supports that claim, he simply makes it then cites examples from the last two years for what KG is doing now that is so over the top.  So, let's look at those examples:

* Dwyer cites the Richardson elbow as the last straw, because it will cost KG a playoff game.  But ask yourself, is what KG actually did here that much different than him elbowing Za Za and putting his hands on a ref in the '08 playoffs?  In fact, is it really that different than getting into an elbowing/shoving contest with Anthony Peeler in game 6 of the '04 playoffs?  Answer: no, his actions weren't really different.  In all cases he got heated with another player, exchanged shoves/elbows, then tried to get away when it became clear that an actual suspendable fight was forthcoming.  The difference is, this time he got suspended.  But the action was the same as when he was "in his prime".

* Dwyer cites the somewhat tired "KG trash talks Euros" talking point, but again he acts as though it's new.  This line of criticism is actually an offshoot of the "KG doesn't like white people" line that some of his detractors used in Minnesota, stemming from his fights with Wally Szczerbiak, Rick Rickert and his altercation with Joel Przybilla where he called Joel a "fake thug".  But the point is that this criticism isn't in any way new or unique to KG's current situation, as Dwyer would suggest.

* Dwyer criticizes KG for trash-talking from the bench in last year's playoffs, "an embarrassing display" he called it.  But Garnett has never wanted to sit on the bench when hurt in his entire CAREER, for this EXACT reason.  He's always said that he gets too over-the-top on the bench, that he would be a distraction, and for that reason he preferred to watch in the locker room.  But there was a groundswell of criticism when KG WASN'T on the bench, so he was out there expressly to quiet those grumbles.  But again, the point is that Garnett's behavior wasn't different...he's the same guy that never wanted to sit on the bench when hurt his whole career.

* Finally, Dwyer calls KG on making Big Baby cry.  This was the weakest criticism, to me, because to most that follow the team this was considered a GOOD thing.  An example of strong leadership, as Baby was being immature, KG called him (and the other subs) on their lack of discipline/effort, Baby cried, and hopefully grew from it.

The ultimate point is: none of Dwyer's reasoning stands up.  Garnett isn't doing anything new, he isn't doing much more of it than he always has, and he isn't being any more extreme now than he ever has.  You might hate Garnett for those reasons, but if so it's not because he's just started doing them the way that Dwyer suggests.  This all goes back to my initial point: this article was just lazy.  But if I'm going to criticize Dwyer, I need to be willing to put out my own reasoning for why Garnett is now hated.  There are 3 main parts:

1. Garnett doesn't fit the superstar narrative.  He never did, really.  Over the last 30 years we've been taught that the superstars are usually perimeter players, very exciting, more offense than defense, and they lead their teams to titles.  Tim Duncan also never fit the narrative because he, like Garnett, dominated defensively as much as offensively and he didn't play the glamour perimeter positions.  But Duncan won titles, so even if he didn't fit he had to be respected.  But he was never really loved, either, by any that weren't Spurs fans.  He doesn't have the personal charisma or play for a large enough fanbase to engender massive adulation, but he also doesn't make waves so he doesn't engender hatred either.  Kobe Bryant fit the superstar narrative to a T and plays for one of the glamour franchises, so even though he has more polarizing negatives than Garnett he also has lots of fans among both the rabid and the casual fans because his story fits the narrative.  Garnett doesn't fit, though.  His impact is most similar to Duncan's, but his team never won in his first 12 years.  His dominance only showed up in the geeky advanced stats, which are still easily dismissible if they don't agree with common perception.  Even when he was the best player on the '08 championship Celtics (and according to many advanced stats arguably the best player in the NBA), he didn't receive the due that most legendary players would have in that circumstance.  Some of that is due to reason 2 below, but a lot of it is because he had never fit the mold of a legendary superstar and in Boston he did even less (posting "only" 18 and 9...couldn't be THAT good).  We like our superstars to fit our perceptions.

2. Garnett doesn't have a large natural fan-base.  Players like Duncan, Kobe, Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, LeBron...essentially every MVP since 2001, is universally loved by their team's fan base.  They are seen by their team's fans as "their guy", warts and all, and those fans would go to the wall to support their guy.  Garnett, though, was "the guy" for a Minnesota fan base that isn't as large or entrenched as many other teams, he never led them to a title, then he left on somewhat ambiguous terms in a split that left many Wolves fans viewing Garnett like a successful ex-relationship that they tried to move on from.  Fans of his "new" team, the Celtics, LIKE Garnett but this is by-and-large Paul Pierce's city.  And Larry Bird's city.  And Bill Russell's city.   KG, even when he was leading the team to a title in '08, was seen by many Celtics fans as an interloper against the "real" Celtic legends.  Cornbread angered many by comparing him favorably to Bird.  KG's sappy spots with Russell that led to KG/Russell comparisons annoyed others.  And Garnett getting most of the press and regular season accolades for the '08 team irked Pierce fans, who wanted to see their Captain get more due.  All of this combined to make Garnett liked, somewhat accepted, but ultimately more like a step-child than a native son to the Boston faithful.  So unlike other polarizing players, Garnett doesn't have a strong base of support among any fan group to have his back in a dust-up.

3. The rise of the internet/media echo chamber.  As I pointed out before, what Garnett's doing isn't new, but look who he was doing it against when it became a big deal.  The Jose Calderon thing was frankly nothing, a complete non-story...except it was the Raptors, one of the most rabid e-fan bases on the web.  The on-his-knees defense against Bayless was nothing, something that KG had done MANY times before...including the year before, against All Star PF David West with absolutely no fan-fair at all.  But when he did it against the Blazers, another extremely vocal e-fan base, it was another log thrown on the message board fire.  Oh yeah, and all of this hit the fan in '09, the very year after KG's Celtics beat the Lakers (the third of the huge e-fan bases, who have since taken many shots at both KG and Pierce).  The result was a huge positive-feedback loop of negative Garnett energy on the message boards, which seeped into the blogosphere, and when ESPN's blogmaster Henry Abbott picked it up it then moved into the mainstream media.  Reporters noted it, and started asking other players about it.  Suddenly, every time that Garnett does any of the things that he's always done it is now newsworthy, complete with Sportscenter highlights and PTI discussions on the subject.  Essentially, what was once considered no big deal has now become one of the defining pieces of Garnett's media narrative.  Which isn't good.

Now, put those 3 things together with a Garnett that even less fits the narrative of a superstar.  Now, the ONLY folks that argue that he's still among the best are those that (like me) are both big fans AND big advanced stats aficionados.  To everyone else he is at best a pretty good team contributor and at worst a glorified role player.  So KG's narrative is now that of a declined player who increasingly uses vitriol to try to make up for lost talent.  That's the narrative that Dwyer espouses in his article.  But the reality of the situation is that Garnett is the same person that he's always been on the court.  He hasn't changed.  But his perception has, and in this perception-driven society eventually your narrative becomes who you are.  And when the more negative parts of his current narrative were being decided, there were legions of angry fans pushing in one direction and not enough of his supporters to  stem the tide.

Essentially, the man who was once king of the Wolves no longer has that big of a pack.  And he's not been afraid to take on the world.  And that combination is why, to me, Garnett is now one of the more hated players in the NBA.  Which is a shame.


Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2010, 02:20:52 PM »

Offline ACF

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I think you should replace Dwyer. Have a Tommy Point.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2010, 02:29:51 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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One small quibble:  Dwyer wrote that article as a blogger, rather than an analyst.  He's giving his opinion as a fan, which I think is fair.

As for KG, I think the antics are a little over the top.  They don't bother me, because he's on our side.  However, put KG on the Cavs or Lakers, and he'd be one of my least favorite players in the NBA if he acted like this.

A lot of this, of course, stems from the increase of exposure that KG received, but a lot also comes from an increase in talk that has been coupled with a decline in his game.  (Maybe KG is the same player he's always been, but I don't remember seeing him getting down on all fours while in Minnesota, etc.)

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2010, 02:30:32 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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Ball Don't Lie has really suffered for lack of Tom Ziller.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2010, 02:36:31 PM »

Offline MMacOH

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One small quibble:  Dwyer wrote that article as a blogger, rather than an analyst.  He's giving his opinion as a fan, which I think is fair.

As for KG, I think the antics are a little over the top.  They don't bother me, because he's on our side.  However, put KG on the Cavs or Lakers, and he'd be one of my least favorite players in the NBA if he acted like this.

A lot of this, of course, stems from the increase of exposure that KG received, but a lot also comes from an increase in talk that has been coupled with a decline in his game.  (Maybe KG is the same player he's always been, but I don't remember seeing him getting down on all fours while in Minnesota, etc.)

I know that's how we feel about him in Cleveland.  My last straw was when he grabbed his crotch and cursed out Lebron after Lebron had scored about 20 straight points at the rim against him.  He seems to talk more trash now (if that is possible), but can't back up near as much of it anymore. 

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2010, 02:41:26 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Thanks, drza44--this was needed.  May you earn TPs galore.

People act as if all the attributes that pushed KG to the top should be pushed aside the moment he begins to age a little bit, or when he's recovering from injury.  If KG gave up that easily, he would have never gotten to where he got.  And when KG returns next year (a full year removed from surgery) with an extra hop in his step, all these yahoos are going to change their tune, praising the crazy intensity they now hold in such disregard.  


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P.S.  The defense of Kelly Dwyer by Celticsblog staff is getting a little ridiculous.  Kelly is a big boy--he can handle the mess created by lazy writing.  
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Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2010, 02:45:07 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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P.S.  The defense of Kelly Dwyer by Celticsblog staff is getting a little ridiculous.  Kelly is a big boy--he can handle the mess created by lazy writing.  

Wait, I can't have an opinion on Dwyer because I'm "Celticsblog staff"?  Am I supposed to reflexively bash the guy because he dared criticize KG, who, quite frankly, acts like a goon a large percentage of the time?

He's our goon, so I root for him, and respect the heck out of him for his game and his intensity.  Put him on the Cavs, though, and he's Bill Laimbeer.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2010, 02:48:05 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Excellent drza44. I need say nothing else.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2010, 02:48:29 PM »

Offline Jon Niednagel

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I think you should replace Dwyer. Have a Tommy Point.

Have another from me. Nicely done.
“Being a Celtic is, every decision you make is about the team. Every cut you make is about the team. Every pass you make is about the team. You take yourself out of it. It’s not for everyone. If you don’t want to win, don’t want to play team basketball, and it’s more about you then you’re probably not a Celtic." Doc 2010

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2010, 02:49:48 PM »

Offline moiso

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I agree with Roy that KG would be one of my least favorite players if he were on another contending team and acted this way against us.  I like KG overall, but there have been times that he has been a little embarrasing.  I understand why fans from other cities don't like him.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2010, 03:10:58 PM »

Offline Coach

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Put him on the Cavs, though, and he's Bill Laimbeer.

This is one of the most absurd things I've ever read here.  Laimbeer tried to be dirty....KG plays hard and tough.  Yes he barks a little too much, but I see that as psychological war, not dirty. 

Are you even a Celtics fan?  You can't be to say this.....



IMHO, Q deserved that elbow, he was trashing Pierce, and was pushing KG in the back....I wish KG hit him harder...


ps...great original post.  Well written, and well thought out.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2010, 03:11:12 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'd hate KG too if he were on a rival team (though Bill Laimbeer is a HUGE stretch) but I agree with drza.  He's not really doing much differently than he ever has - heck, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pTiEkfQ6pk


But he's doing it on a larger stage, in higher stakes situations, with more people watching.  This starts to snowball into a "narrative" where each incident gets more and more attention attached to it.  The media loves narratives because they basically allow them to write stories in advance - the next time KG has an incident, or Shaq says something bad about Kobe, or whatever, they can just copy-paste their last story on the issue and modify it a bit to fit the new event.  And despite protests to the contrary, narratives get ratings and pageviews.

Problem is a growing narrative is easily confused with a growing issue - people think this stuff is happening more often because they're seeing it covered and discussed more often.  And this illusory relationship can then be erroneously linked to KG overcompensating for reduced ability, which leads to Dwyer's kind of perspective.

I still wish KG wasn't as over-the-top as he is (though his Sex Panther kneecrawling defensive pose is still hilarious to me), but I don't see any more of it this year than in '08, and I don't think it's really changed since his Minnesota days either.  The perception certainly has though.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2010, 03:23:20 PM »

Offline moiso

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I'd hate KG too if he were on a rival team (though Bill Laimbeer is a HUGE stretch) but I agree with drza.  He's not really doing much differently than he ever has - heck, look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pTiEkfQ6pk


But he's doing it on a larger stage, in higher stakes situations, with more people watching.  This starts to snowball into a "narrative" where each incident gets more and more attention attached to it.  The media loves narratives because they basically allow them to write stories in advance - the next time KG has an incident, or Shaq says something bad about Kobe, or whatever, they can just copy-paste their last story on the issue and modify it a bit to fit the new event.  And despite protests to the contrary, narratives get ratings and pageviews.

Problem is a growing narrative is easily confused with a growing issue - people think this stuff is happening more often because they're seeing it covered and discussed more often.  And this illusory relationship can then be erroneously linked to KG overcompensating for reduced ability, which leads to Dwyer's kind of perspective.

I still wish KG wasn't as over-the-top as he is (though his Sex Panther kneecrawling defensive pose is still hilarious to me), but I don't see any more of it this year than in '08, and I don't think it's really changed since his Minnesota days either.  The perception certainly has though.
Haha, made with real panther parts, so you know it's good!

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2010, 03:40:45 PM »

Offline drza44

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P.S.  The defense of Kelly Dwyer by Celticsblog staff is getting a little ridiculous.  Kelly is a big boy--he can handle the mess created by lazy writing.  

Wait, I can't have an opinion on Dwyer because I'm "Celticsblog staff"?  Am I supposed to reflexively bash the guy because he dared criticize KG, who, quite frankly, acts like a goon a large percentage of the time?

He's our goon, so I root for him, and respect the heck out of him for his game and his intensity.  Put him on the Cavs, though, and he's Bill Laimbeer.

As I replied on the main board, you aren't addressing the points that I made.  I'm not "reflexively bashing" Dwyer because he criticized KG...I'm bashing his article because his criticisms were lazy and not well developed. 

And I'd disagree with your quibble above, Dwyer wasn't writing that as a fan.  He published it on his widely read "Ball Don't Lie" site, and in the article he cites his own previous, more analytical work as part of his background for why he was writing this piece.  People are going to read and give weight to his opinion because of his placement and role as an analytic writer.  Like I said, if this was a message board post I'd simply reply in the thread and keep it moving.  But it wasn't.  It was a published piece on a mainstream site by an established writer...he should be better than that article.

Re: To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2010, 03:52:08 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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And I'd disagree with your quibble above, Dwyer wasn't writing that as a fan.  He published it on his widely read "Ball Don't Lie" site, and in the article he cites his own previous, more analytical work as part of his background for why he was writing this piece.  People are going to read and give weight to his opinion because of his placement and role as an analytic writer.  Like I said, if this was a message board post I'd simply reply in the thread and keep it moving.  But it wasn't.  It was a published piece on a mainstream site by an established writer...he should be better than that article.

Regardless, though, Dwyer is writing as a blogger.  Why do I say this?  Because of this:



"A Y!Sports Blog".

I mean, Dwyer has an article up today about how he misses Bill Walton.  Regardless of how much attention his site gets, he's still an opinion journalist / blogger, rather than an analyst.  To that extent, he's entitled to his opinion.  (Sure, he'll do research and cite statistics, but he's never labeled himself as anything other than somebody with an opinion, rather than an expert or statistician.)

Regarding that opinion, I agree with Dwyer that KG seems to have amped up his intensity.  Maybe I feel that way because of an increase in media coverage, but I can't remember anything like the defensive crouch or the trash-talking from the sidelines when KG was in Minnesota.  He's always been intense (as Dwyer mentions), but he seems to have ratcheted that up since he's come to Boston.  Since that has coincided with a decline in his game, it rubs a lot of non-Celtics fans the wrong way.

Lastly, the reply you quoted was addressed to SalmonAndMashedPotatoes, who disregarded my opinion simply because I'm a member of the staff.  Nobody accused you of "reflexively bashing" Dwyer, although that seems to be what Salmon was hoping for.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 03:58:55 PM by Roy Hobbs »

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

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