To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)

[Fan from VT]

Personally, my problem is that this is the first year that KG's attitude is negatively affecting the team.

-KG is not just "intense." He is intense and personally belittling. He doesn't just take the game seriously and psyche himself up and the team up; he makes it personal. Which you can get away with when you can back it up; but he cannot back up his talk as much any more. This means that instead of "getting in players heads" and "being intimidated," opponents KNOW we are vulnerable and they get fired up and actually play BETTER against us inside...contributing to getting totally outhustled and outrebounded.

-He's always played close to the edge. But I think he's more frustrated because his body can't keep up with his mind, so he's a little closer to the emotional edge than normal. He had NO business elbowing Richardson EITHER of the times he did, but because he put himself so close to the edge, when he went a little further he removed himself from game 2, which could cost us home court advantage. That's ALL on him, and it hurt the team.


To sum up: I love KG. I think he's either the #1 or #2 player of this generation (pre-Lebron). But I do think his antics this year are uncalled for. I think it's very apologetic to say he needs to do this to play how he does. I just think he's never been told/taught there's another way; never held accountable. I love competitiveness and intensity. Getting the team psyched up. But there's no real reason to make it personal outward. Now that we don't have the same talent to back up being the loud-mouthed bullies we embraced two years ago, all that's happening is that players are extra motivated to take it to KG. Additionally, due to not controlling his temper, and basically allowing himself to be out of control, he took himself out of a playoff game. That's a big big problem.

If he can't adjust his attitude to fit his abilities, that's a problem too.

[drza44]

TP To Drza for this!
What Roy Hobbs is doing is exactly what Drza pointed out as a fan base that doesn't have KG's back!
. . .

As Drza said, KG has no strong fan base anymore (like Kobe has) and Roy and others in celticsblog's staff are illustrating us why...

What part of being a fan or a blogger requires you to be 100% supportive of your player, no matter ho they act?  

Of course, in this case, everyone *has* been supportive of KG.  However, some Celtics fans also recognize that KG does some things that we wouldn't like very much if he was on a rival.

As I said, "I don't think KG's reputation has suffered much with Celts fans.  Rather, it's fans around the league that have a markedly different opinion of him.  I think that's a factor of:  1) more exposure; 2) jealousy; and 3) a ramping up of KG's antics."

The tone of your posts are essentially exactly what I was talking about with my second point.  Because you're right, KG's reputation hasn't suffered much with Celtics fans.  Celtics fans on the whole really like Garnett.  He may have some warts, which they reasonably acknowledge, but on the whole they think he's pretty swell.

But he's not LOVED.  Not the way that Spurs fans love Duncan or Lakers fans love Kobe.  Or that Celtics fans love Pierce.  And that's not a knock on the fan base, it's a function of the situation.  Garnett spent the majority of his career in Minnesota.  Celtics fans just don't have the history of close association with him that the longer tenured superstars of this generation have with the fanbases of their teams.  But consider this hypothetical, and tell me honestly if you can see my point.  Maybe you won't, but I think many will.

Suppose that Garnett was drafted by the Celtics in 1995, and Pierce went to Minnesota in '98.  

Suppose Garnett breaks Larry Bird's NBA record for most consecutive years posting 20-10-5 while wearing green.  

Suppose management was awful, but he still somehow carried the squad to multiple 50-plus win seasons, at times just about by himself.  

Suppose that, while sporting the #5 in Green, Garnett wins the 2004 MVP by the second largest margin in NBA history, almost a unanimous vote.

Then, after some lean years where management just let the wheels fall off, suppose Danny Ainge takes over in 2007 and trades for two semi-regular All Stars from losing teams and that Garnett leads the resulting squad to the 2008 title.

The next season hypothetical-KG's Celtics have the best record in the NBA when KG goes down for the season, and the team valiantly fights to the finish only to bow out of the playoffs in the 2nd round.

Now this season, while struggling to come back from knee surgery, hypothetical-career-Celtic-KG turns in the exact season that he did this year in real life.  So he entered this year's playoffs #2 on the All-time Celtics scoring list, #3 in rebounds, #4 in assists, #2 in blocks, and #2 in steals.  He then gets the exact same suspension for the same situation in game 1.

There is absolutely.  Positively.  NO.  WAY.  That one of the Celticsblog staff in that hypothetical world would classify Garnett as a goon on the order of Bill Laimbeer.  Are you kidding me?  In that alternate universe there would have been monthly threads for the past 10 years about whether Garnett was more like Bird or Russell, it'd be blasphemous to compare him to players like Rodman or Laimbeer.  

If we start a thread on KG vs Duncan now, a good number of Celtic fans (probably the majority) would say that Duncan has been better.  But in alternative, KG-was-drafted-by-Boston world?  Telling a Celtic fan that Duncan was better than KG would be like walking into a Boston sports bar and telling someone that Magic was better than Bird.  

Celtics fans as a whole would be RABID in defense of Garnett.  Much like Laker fans are for Kobe now, because they would have lived and breathed through the careers of one of the greatest players in history that nobody outside of them truly appreciated.  So when some new e-fanbase like the Raptors pitched a hissy fit about Garnett talking trash to Calderon, there would have been a nation in Green there to come right back at them.  When the Blazers fans cried about Jeryd Bayless, there'd have been a bunch of New Englanders holding out hankies.  And when it hit the mainstream media that some fans were mad, you'd have had Bob Ryan on the Sports Reporters out there holding up KG's over-the-top play as a model for how the game SHOULD be played.

That's what Garnett doesn't have that other players that are on his level does.  That's what I meant with my second point.  Celtics fans on the whole really like Garnett.  But they don't live and die with him.  But if he'd been here his entire career, they would.

[GroverTheClover]

Meh. I could care less about the popularity contests among NBA players and fans. No one outside of Boston liked Bird's trash talking, Ainge's constant whining to the refs or McHale's dirty play back in the day. I see no difference today with Pierce, KG, et al.

[Fan from VT]

TP To Drza for this!
What Roy Hobbs is doing is exactly what Drza pointed out as a fan base that doesn't have KG's back!
. . .

As Drza said, KG has no strong fan base anymore (like Kobe has) and Roy and others in celticsblog's staff are illustrating us why...

What part of being a fan or a blogger requires you to be 100% supportive of your player, no matter how they act? 

Of course, in this case, everyone *has* been supportive of KG.  However, some Celtics fans also recognize that KG does some things that we wouldn't like very much if he was on a rival.

As I said, "I don't think KG's reputation has suffered much with Celts fans.  Rather, it's fans around the league that have a markedly different opinion of him.  I think that's a factor of:  1) more exposure; 2) jealousy; and 3) a ramping up of KG's antics."

The tone of your posts are essentially exactly what I was talking about with my second point.  Because you're right, KG's reputation hasn't suffered much with Celtics fans.  Celtics fans on the whole really like Garnett.  He may have some warts, which they reasonably acknowledge, but on the whole they think he's pretty swell.

But he's not LOVED.  Not the way that Spurs fans love Duncan or Lakers fans love Kobe.  Or that Celtics fans love Pierce.  And that's not a knock on the fan base, it's a function of the situation.  Garnett spent the majority of his career in Minnesota.  Celtics fans just don't have the history of close association with him that the longer tenured superstars of this generation have with "their guys".  But consider this hypothetical, and tell me honestly if you can see my point.  Maybe you won't, but I think many will.

Suppose that Garnett was drafted by the Celtics in 1995, and Pierce went to Minnesota in '98.  

Suppose Garnett breaks Larry Bird's NBA record for most consecutive years posting 20-10-5 while wearing green.  

Suppose management was awful, but he still somehow carried the squad to multiple 50-plus win seasons, at times just about by himself.  

Suppose that, while sporting the #5 in Green, Garnett wins the 2004 MVP by the second largest margin in NBA history, almost a unanimous vote.

Then, after some lean years where management just let the wheels fall off, suppose Danny Ainge takes over in 2007 and trades for two semi-regular All Stars from losing teams and that Garnett leads the resulting squad to the 2008 title.

The next season hypothetical-KG's Celtics have the best record in the NBA when KG goes down for the season, and the team valiantly fights to the finish only to bow out of the playoffs in the 2nd round.

Now this season, while struggling to come back from knee surgery, hypothetical-career-Celtic-KG turns in the exact season that he did this year in real life.  So he entered this year's playoffs #2 on the All-time Celtics scoring list, #3 in rebounds, #4 in assists, #2 in blocks, and #2 in steals.  He then gets the exact same suspension for the same situation in game 1.

There is absolutely.  Positively.  NO.  WAY.  That one of the Celticsblog staff in that hypothetical world would classify Garnett as a goon on the order of Bill Laimbeer.  Are you kidding me?  In that alternate universe there would have been monthly threads for the past 10 years about whether Garnett was more like Bird or Russell, it'd be blasphemous to compare him to players like Rodman or Laimbeer.  

If we start a thread on KG vs Duncan now, a good number of Celtic fans (probably the majority) would say that Duncan has been better.  But in alternative, KG-was-drafted-by-Boston world?  Telling a Celtic fan that Duncan was better than KG would be like walking into a Boston sports bar and telling someone that Magic was better than Bird.  

Celtics fans as a whole would be RABID in defense of Garnett.  Much like Laker fans are for Kobe now, because they would have lived and breathed through the careers of one of the greatest players in history that nobody outside of them truly appreciated.  So when some new e-fanbase like the Raptors pitched a hissy fit about Garnett talking trash to Calderon, there would have been a nation in Green there to come right back at them.  When the Blazers fans cried about Jeryd Bayless, there'd have been a bunch of New Englanders holding out hankies.  And when it hit the mainstream media that some fans were mad, you'd have had Bob Ryan on the Sports Reporters out there holding up KG's over-the-top play as a model for how the game SHOULD be played.

That's what Garnett doesn't have that other players that are on his level does.  That's what I meant with my second point.  Celtics fans on the whole really like Garnett.  But they don't live and die with him.  But if he'd been here his entire career, they would.

I would say the thing that arose this year is that Duncan's personality matches his on court play as his career  winds down. KG's personality has gotten more abrasive as his abilities sharply declined. He really is a prick out there and can't back it up. He's not gracefully matching his play and personality. I think we're ready to love and embrace him. Right now, I'm a bit jaded by his attitude. I'm ready, I still appreciate his value and skills and certainly loved the ride in '08, but why should we unconditionally defend someone who is not only acting like a prick but not backing it up and taking himself out of games? Why should we unconditionally support people for whom we root passionately? I think there should be a healthy separation between sports passion and unconditional embracement.

[RebusRankin]

Great article drza. Agree completly.

[barefacedmonk]

This means that instead of "getting in players heads" and "being intimidated," opponents KNOW we are vulnerable and they get fired up and actually play BETTER against us inside...contributing to getting totally outhustled and outrebounded.

But I do think his antics this year are uncalled for.

So, we get out rebounded because KG has taken his trash talk to the next level or does more of it..?? What about the fact that he is coming off a surgery that requires a year before he can regain the same lift and mobility? Why does Perkins escape the blame? He is another big that needs to rebound better....What about the fact that our sixth man is as lazy as it gets? What about the fact that Marquis has preformed way below expectations? What about the fact that we have no real PG to run our second unit? There are plenty of reasons why we are getting outplyaed and out rebounded this season....KG's trash talk is not one of them.

And when are antics ever called for?

He really is a prick out there and can't back it up. He's not gracefully matching his play and personality. I think we're

Really? You are going to call him that now? As someone who is complaining about KG's trash talk....you need to find a better term to insult and degrade the player....and if you want to watch a player playing with grace to match the personality....I suggest WNBA or maybe Curling...I don't know any player in the NBA that plays with "grace that matches their personality"....every one of them is "ungraceful" in some way.

[Roy Hobbs]

There is absolutely.  Positively.  NO.  WAY.  That one of the Celticsblog staff in that hypothetical world would classify Garnett as a goon on the order of Bill Laimbeer.  Are you kidding me?  In that alternate universe there would have been monthly threads for the past 10 years about whether Garnett was more like Bird or Russell, it'd be blasphemous to compare him to players like Rodman or Laimbeer.

I think, as a staff, we're pretty objective.  We're all Celtics fans, and overlook a lot of flaws.  However, when a player deserves to be called out, we're willing to do so.  (For instance, the "loved" Pierce has been gently criticized a few times.) 

I'm sure certain Cavs bloggers criticize Lebron from time to time.  Certain Lakers bloggers probably call out Kobe.  And, on appropriate occasions, Celtics bloggers are going to point out KG's flaws, at the same time they support him and cheer him on.

[Fafnir]

I don't think KG's antics are worse at all.

I think people have now seen them for three years straight and gotten tired of them. Its easier to get away with things in Minnesota.

[CoachBo]

WADR, this is another silly article by Dwyer.

KG is who he is, and it's why he's one of the greats to play the game. This is a for-pay league, not tee-ball where the players are waiting for Ding-Dongs and Juicy Juice after a game. Some of the stream of consciousness stuff like this nonsense - and several posts on this board - after an incident instigated by Richardson is mind-boggling.

Arnold Auerbach once punched out the owner of the St. Louis Hawks. During a game. I can only imagine how Dwyer - and some of you - would have reacted. 

This piece is a laughable piece of overreaction on Dwyer's part.

[rav123]

TP drza...  The only things I disagree on are that I don't think Pierce fans were irked by KG getting the respect (At I wasn't), and I don't think Celtics fans ever acted as if KG was an adopted son (Again at least I didn't).  

I would agree with that.  I think KG was *very* popular here, especially in 2008.  All players get criticized in Boston, but I think that KG has largely been embraced.  The only time I can remember KG getting any major blow-back since he's been here was a couple of weeks ago when he called out the fans for booing, and he deserved that criticism, in my opinion.  (Not because he bristled at getting booed, but because he called the fans "fair-weather" after a very half-hearted performance by the team.)

I don't think KG's reputation has suffered much with Celts fans.  Rather, it's fans around the league that have a markedly different opinion of him.  I think that's a factor of:  1) more exposure; 2) jealousy; and 3) a ramping up of KG's antics.

1) possibly. though the main criticism is coming from NBA fans on the internet and the basketball media, who would have known Garnett before his Celtic years

2) Most likely. No one wastes time hating on a loser, but once he won his ring, he became hate-able

3) Dunno. I think he's only slightly ramped up his antics (I was a TWolves fan) since back in the day. This facet of his game (intensity, talking) has been highlighted by the media since his move to Boston. Maybe he feels he needs to perform (i.e. trash-talk) up to that standard to keep his reputation

DrZa44, I would have given you a TP for your last post but I already gave you one for the first one.

Maybe KG hasn't increased his punkness, but maintained the old level. However, his skill level is falling. When he was good, he was entitled to talking that much, but know he is not good enough to back up that level of talk. I think this is why people hate him. Personally, I wouldn't agree with this rationale for hating him as talk should have nothing to do with skill. It is a tool to get in somebody's head and gain a competive advantage. I think worse players should talk more than great players (because they, not the stars, need the advantage it provides), and to an extent they do (Artest, Q-Rich, others)

[GreenFaith1819]

Great Post, drza44.

And Good Discussion all around.

[Hila]

Great, great post, drza.

Those are things I thought when I read KD's article, but didn't have the ability to express so well.

Yet another TP for you!

[BudweiserCeltic]

Yet, people voted for KG to start in the All-Star game... in his worst year as a pro. Clearly, KG is hated...

[indeedproceed]

Yet, people voted for KG to start in the All-Star game... in his worst year as a pro. Clearly, KG is hated...

Yeah...I think he kinda means by him mostly. And people like him...basketball geeks who aren't celticsfans.

[twinbree]

TP for an excellent post. I didn't bother to read the article because nothing irritates me more than seeing unsubstantiated claims and amateur psychology masquerading as an analytical piece. Based on your summary and what I read on CSL I'll agree this is extremely lazy writing.