To Kelly Dwyer: Why KG is really hated (very long)

[Mike-Dub]

TP drza...  The only things I disagree on are that I don't think Pierce fans were irked by KG getting the respect (At least I wasn't), and I don't think Celtics fans ever acted as if KG was an adopted son (Again at least I didn't).  

I do see your point though that KG is not as big of a favorite as Pierce and Allen are because Garnetts decline is steeper and more noticeable which is why I feel KG is not as big a favorite as Paul or Ray, because I remember during the championship run and when we went 27-2 how popular KG was, but we all respect and love KG as much even if we don't show it.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

P.S.  The defense of Kelly Dwyer by Celticsblog staff is getting a little ridiculous.  Kelly is a big boy--he can handle the mess created by lazy writing.  

Wait, I can't have an opinion on Dwyer because I'm "Celticsblog staff"?  Am I supposed to reflexively bash the guy because he dared criticize KG, who, quite frankly, acts like a goon a large percentage of the time?

He's our goon, so I root for him, and respect the heck out of him for his game and his intensity.  Put him on the Cavs, though, and he's Bill Laimbeer.

and later...

...the reply you quoted was addressed to SalmonAndMashedPotatoes, who disregarded my opinion simply because I'm a member of the staff.  Nobody accused you of "reflexively bashing" Dwyer, although that seems to be what Salmon was hoping for.

Roy, I didn't mean to imply you can't have your opinion, whatever it may be, but here and on the main page I've seen a tendency by the staff (you and Jeff and others) to be overly protective/supportive of an article that really falls short in several categories.  I was reacting against that tendency (or my perception of that tendency), FWIW.  Nobody was disregarding your opinion, though.  Just disagreeing vehemently (see below).

***

KG's no goon.  A goon, by my definition, has no discernable skills outside of being a thug.  KG, on the other hand, is loaded with skills, and has a game based on finesse.  In fact, the biggest criticism against KG for his entire career was that he shied away from banging down low.  And now he's a goon?  Find a new avenue of attack--this one makes no sense.

FWIW, KG plays the game exactly like it should be played--he took an extreme work ethic, great athleticism, and the perfect basketball body and molded into the perfect team-first player, a one-of-a-kind basketball god we'll never see again.  Not only that, he married that work ethic to an intensity which seeks out and identifies each possible area of advantage and exploits it (other than banging in the post--something that just isn't what KG does).  When guys like Kelly Dwyer come along expecting KG to change the very things that molded him into a once-in-a-lifetime kind of player, all because he's gotten a little old and is recovering from injury, it strikes me as an arbitrary projection divorced from reality.  You just can't tell KG (or anybody) to change who he is because it's starting to bother you and your sense of proper NBA decorum. 

What sense does it make to tell a leopard to change its spots?  That's the crux of the issue here...  KG's been this way his entire career, and I loved him for it, both here and in Minnesota.  This is the old question of perception--when KG's on a perennial loser with a bad supporting cast, he's the ultimate representation of heart and sacrifice.  When he's doing the same things on a great winning team, he's perceived as a front running goon.  His situation may have changed, but he's doing the things he's always done, which is again why it's so retarded to ask him to change the way he plays...

[Roy Hobbs]

TP drza...  The only things I disagree on are that I don't think Pierce fans were irked by KG getting the respect (At I wasn't), and I don't think Celtics fans ever acted as if KG was an adopted son (Again at least I didn't). 

I would agree with that.  I think KG was *very* popular here, especially in 2008.  All players get criticized in Boston, but I think that KG has largely been embraced.  The only time I can remember KG getting any major blow-back since he's been here was a couple of weeks ago when he called out the fans for booing, and he deserved that criticism, in my opinion.  (Not because he bristled at getting booed, but because he called the fans "fair-weather" after a very half-hearted performance by the team.)

I don't think KG's reputation has suffered much with Celts fans.  Rather, it's fans around the league that have a markedly different opinion of him.  I think that's a factor of:  1) more exposure; 2) jealousy; and 3) a ramping up of KG's antics.

[indeedproceed]

I like Kelly Dwyer. He's no celtics fan, and he's no Garnett fan (anymore apparently), but his "behind the boxscore" column is the best daily recap of the nights games out there.

Admittedly though if you have been following him along, he's fallen off a bit this season. He's been getting too weirded out by the perception of those reading his articles and he's gotten too caught up in defending himself, instead of just writing what he sees.

Again, I'm talking about Kelly Dwyer.

As far as KG goes...if he was on the Lakers or the Cavaliers, we would hate his guts. And we would absolutely compare him to Bill Lambieer. Since he's on the Celtics, we find his antics cheeky and fun. It's the nature of fandom.

[Roy Hobbs]

KG's no goon.  A goon, by my definition, has no discernable skills outside of being a thug.  KG, on the other hand, is loaded with skills, and has a game based on finesse.  In fact, the biggest criticism against KG for his entire career was that he shied away from banging down low.  And now he's a goon?  Find a new avenue of attack--this one makes no sense.

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.  However, each of those players was also a goon, or whatever other word you want to use.  They thrive on taking cheapshots and getting into opponents' heads.

That's what KG does.  I've got no issue with that while he's wearing green, since it's part of how he gets himself psyched up for games.  However, I can absolutely see why it's perceived as classless. 

As for the alleged connection between being a goon and not playing down low, isn't that one of the criticisms you'll occasionally see?  That KG does a lot of wolfing at the Jose Calderons of the world, but he won't mix it up down low with bigger players because he doesn't want his body to get beaten up?

As for whether KG's behavior is acceptable from an outside fan's perspective, tell me the difference between the following two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pTiEkfQ6pk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3OuzKpQ3jM

Very few of us were talking about Rafer the Warrior after that second video happened.  The more instances of things like that that there are on a player's resume', the less likely he is to be well-liked.

[Mr October]

TP drza. Well put.

The Dwyer article was very lazy. Lots of fan forum-esque statements and no where near enough information to back it up.

KG is who he is, and has been who he is since I remember him entering the NBA (as drza nicely provided examples).

KG still busts his butt and plays with fire - even if he is one legged, and rally struggled at times this season.

Funny how it is OK for writers/experts to mail it in at any time, while they complain about the athletes wrong doings.

Dwey had some good points, to bad he phoned it in.

[The Walker Wiggle]

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.

Or John Stockton who Dennis Rodman chose as the dirtiest player he ever played against. Likely lead the league in illegal screens and uncalled elbows in his heyday.

[Roy Hobbs]

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.

Or John Stockton who Dennis Rodman chose as the dirtiest player he ever played against. Likely lead the league in illegal screens and uncalled elbows in his heyday.

Yeah, Stockton is a great example.  Great player, excellent defender...  but a physical / dirty player (depending upon whether you're a Stockton / Jazz fan or not.)

[PosImpos]

Great write.

Usually wall-of-text posts are just a few basic statements spun out in concentric circles into a tired rant.  Not the case with this post.

I can definitely understand why fans of other teams dislike KG.  When your best friend is a huge dick, you like him because he's loyal and fun and you appreciate the opinions he expresses without restraint.  But you understand that if you weren't his friend he'd probably be really annoying.

That's pretty much how I feel about LeBron, as it so happens.  Put him in green and I'd love him.  As he is, I can't stand him.

[Onslaught]

As for KG, I think the antics are a little over the top.  They don't bother me, because he's on our side.  However, put KG on the Cavs or Lakers, and he'd be one of my least favorite players in the NBA if he acted like this.

I'm with you on this one. I didn't hate or like him before he came here. But I can understand why other fans wouldn't like him at all. And sometimes he makes me shake my head.

[drogbagarnett]

TP To Drza for this!
What Roy Hobbs is doing is exactly what Drza pointed out as a fan base that doesn't have KG's back!
So what's your point here Roy..?
If I read you correctly, KG has become a dirty player since he joined the celtics because of his increased antics...??
If that's what you are trying to argue here then you are going to lose that argument. Simple.
If Dwyer said he never liked KG since his days in minnesota, then I would have agreed with his "article"/opinion and understood his argument...
Let's be clear from the beginning, KG does have some ways to express his intensity for the game that can be seen as border line... I will give you that! But that's simply NOT NEW!!
The guy got the most votes in the east for the AllStar game in 08 and his now seen as a dirty player and he being trashed in mainstream media... The question here is what has changed for him to go from adulation to the perception of being trash..?
Drza has the best explanation and arguments on why the perception of KG went down that way...
Roy's argument of "3) a ramping up of KG's antics." is absurd and is exactly what I disagree about in Dwyer' "article".
KG hasn't done anymore than he used to. He was my favorite player in the league after Jordan retired and he was just as intense as he is right now! Going down on all four, he did it several times in minnesota and for you not to have seen KG doing it as a Twolves shows exactly that Drza is right... now things get spread much faster and the "hatred/jealousy" make opposite fans or celtics haters voice their
And I will leave you with this :
The video of KG slapping Duncan's head happened before KG got the most votes in the east to the 08 AllStar game... And it wasn't just celtics fan voting him... You got to find excuses for this increasing hate against KG (from fans, players, media "experts", or "bloggers" if you prefer)  somewhere else than "ramping up of KG's antics"... Nothing changed in KG except for a shining ring and a winning team that seems to p--- off more than one...
As Drza said, KG has no strong fan base anymore (like Kobe has) and Roy and others in celticsblog's staff are illustrating us why...
Lakers blogger would show more support to Kobe the rappist (than you guys are doing for KG) despite of these... :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4AM5UGjQDA

And Just for your information, Kobe got the ball back twice after elbowing opponents and got suspended only once out of those 4 occurrences... Still I would bet we won't have a Dwyer article complaining about Kobe being a "goon"...
This is shameful!!

[Roy Hobbs]

TP To Drza for this!
What Roy Hobbs is doing is exactly what Drza pointed out as a fan base that doesn't have KG's back!
. . .

As Drza said, KG has no strong fan base anymore (like Kobe has) and Roy and others in celticsblog's staff are illustrating us why...

What part of being a fan or a blogger requires you to be 100% supportive of your player, no matter how they act? 

Of course, in this case, everyone *has* been supportive of KG.  However, some Celtics fans also recognize that KG does some things that we wouldn't like very much if he was on a rival.

As I said, "I don't think KG's reputation has suffered much with Celts fans.  Rather, it's fans around the league that have a markedly different opinion of him.  I think that's a factor of:  1) more exposure; 2) jealousy; and 3) a ramping up of KG's antics."

I don't think there's any concrete evidence either way regarding KG's actions, other than fans on one side of the debate saying "he's always done thing" and others saying "no, he's worse now".  However, I do think it's absolute fact that there is a general perception that KG's theatrics are a bit more over the top now than they were previously.  He's always been intense, but some of that intensity seems to have spilled over into macho bravado.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

KG's no goon.  A goon, by my definition, has no discernable skills outside of being a thug.  KG, on the other hand, is loaded with skills, and has a game based on finesse.  In fact, the biggest criticism against KG for his entire career was that he shied away from banging down low.  And now he's a goon?  Find a new avenue of attack--this one makes no sense.

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.  However, each of those players was also a goon, or whatever other word you want to use.  They thrive on taking cheapshots and getting into opponents' heads.

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.

Or John Stockton who Dennis Rodman chose as the dirtiest player he ever played against. Likely lead the league in illegal screens and uncalled elbows in his heyday.

Yeah, Stockton is a great example.  Great player, excellent defender...  but a physical / dirty player (depending upon whether you're a Stockton / Jazz fan or not.)

I wouldn't consider any of those players goons, but if we're just going to take words and make them mean what we want them to mean, then I guess there's not much I can say. 

Here's the actual definition:

From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/goon

goon
n. Slang
1. A thug hired to intimidate or harm opponents.
2. A stupid or oafish person.
[Probably ultimately short for gooney, simpleton.]

goon [guːn]
n
1. a stupid or deliberately foolish person
2. (Business / Industrial Relations & HR Terms) US informal a thug hired to commit acts of violence or intimidation, esp in an industrial dispute

To me, a player with enough intelligence to maximize and exploit a competitive advantage is not a goon.  They might be dirty, or they might lack good manners, but they're not goons...

Mark Madsen was a goon.

[Mr October]

KG's no goon.  A goon, by my definition, has no discernable skills outside of being a thug.  KG, on the other hand, is loaded with skills, and has a game based on finesse.  In fact, the biggest criticism against KG for his entire career was that he shied away from banging down low.  And now he's a goon?  Find a new avenue of attack--this one makes no sense.

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.  However, each of those players was also a goon, or whatever other word you want to use.  They thrive on taking cheapshots and getting into opponents' heads.

Lots of goons have talent.  Bill Laimbeer had talent.  Claude Lemieux had talent.  Dennis Rodman had talent.

Or John Stockton who Dennis Rodman chose as the dirtiest player he ever played against. Likely lead the league in illegal screens and uncalled elbows in his heyday.

Yeah, Stockton is a great example.  Great player, excellent defender...  but a physical / dirty player (depending upon whether you're a Stockton / Jazz fan or not.)

I wouldn't consider any of those players goons, but if we're just going to take words and make them mean what we want them to mean, then I guess there's not much I can say. 

Here's the actual definition:

From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/goon

goon
n. Slang
1. A thug hired to intimidate or harm opponents.
2. A stupid or oafish person.
[Probably ultimately short for gooney, simpleton.]

goon [guːn]
n
1. a stupid or deliberately foolish person
2. (Business / Industrial Relations & HR Terms) US informal a thug hired to commit acts of violence or intimidation, esp in an industrial dispute

To me, a player with enough intelligence to maximize and exploit a competitive advantage is not a goon.  They might be dirty, or they might lack good manners, but they're not goons...

Mark Madsen was a goon.

TP, Salmon.... yeah, KG is no goon. Neither were other cheap shot / physical players like Stockton, Rodman, etc.

A goon is a stupid thug. Perhaps Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson would be better examples of goons.

( I dont think Madsen was a goon. He was just a more physical version of Scal. :-P)

[barefacedmonk]

However, some Celtics fans also recognize that KG does some things that we wouldn't like very much if he was on a rival.

The same can be said about a few other players on our roster as well....Paul Pierce with the way he reacts to some injuries, Perkins for his scowl and arguing every call, Rasheed...the name should suffice, BBD with his antics....and maybe Rondo could go on that list too...

KG's on court personality hasn't changed this year...he is still the same...but his play has declined because of the knee surgery and that has made him a soft target for criticism....so, to to come out and say his actions/on court behaviour are over the top this year is nothing but kicking the man when he is down.