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Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2010, 12:34:00 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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Rondo is an average PG. He can't carry a team a la Steve Nash, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams. He is not a scoring threat a la Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Tyreke Evans. Is he better than Aaron Brooks? (questionable) Is he better than Derrick Rose? (Noo) In couple of years, you can add Stephen Curry, Brandon Jennings, Jonny Flynn, Rodney Stuckey, and Darren Collison to list of guys that will surpass Rondo.

A nice building block, but not a franchise player.
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Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2010, 12:42:16 PM »

Offline PLamb

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Okay...one way to discuss this is to break down his skills and weaknesses.  Of course, we're really all homers that place a high value on our own guys (keepin' it real here-we all do it).

Another way is to rank PG's and see if Rondo is the top-5 that he and DA thought he was when extending him last year, or at least top-10 to be above average.  Of course, just looking at assist numbers is a very limited way to rate a player, so we should look at other things, too, right?

(side note:  convenient that Rondo got top-5 PG money right before so many extremely talented young PG's emerged this year, eh?).

Some that should probably get top-10 consideration are:

Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Chauncey Billups
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Russell Westabrook (a beast)
Darren Collison
Andre Miller
Jameer Nelson (once again healthy, he's as good as any)
Tony Parker
Derrick Rose
Stephen Curry
Baron Davis
Aaron Brooks
And, of course, Rondo.

No question Rondo isn't the best.  Is he top-5?  Maybe, but I really don't think so.  Top-10?  I'm really not so sure, let's say it's debatable.  There are some players that are "different" but not necessarily "better" or "worse" that I'd just as well take, meaning they're just as effective.

He's a lock for top-15, though.  I guess that makes him above average?

[explanation:  I don't give THAT much credit for his assist numbers since it's come at the expense of ball movement, IMHO]
He's not top 10 PG?

He's third in the NBA in assists per game
He's first in the NBA in steals per game
He's fifth in the NBA in PER amongst PGs
He's 4th in the NBA in assist percentage
He's fifth amongst PGs in rebounding rate
He's 4th amongst PGs in Estimated Wins Added
He's 7th in the league in assist to turnover ratio
He's 4th in the league in assist per minutes
He's 1st in the league in FG% amongst ALL guards
He's 4th in the league in 2 pt FG% amongst ALL guards
He's sixth amongst PGs in eFG%
He is amongst a group of 4 current starting PGs with a world Championship ring
He's 24 years old


And given all that you think he's not in the top 10?

I say Paul, Nash, Williams and Kidd are ahead of him

Parker and Billups can both be said to have a very good argument to be fifth in the league along with Rondo but based on this year, I say Rondo is probably fifth, 6th the absolute lowest

I would say those 7 are still ahead of Rondo at his point.  (but not far ahead)


I would say he leads next group of three (Rondo, Nelson and Rose)
Reasonable point of view

I think clearly a case could be made for all these PGs being better than Rondo, for one reason or another

Paul
Williams
Kidd
Nash
Billups
Parker

I mean you're talking about THE two best PGs in the game(Paul, Williams), two of THE BEST PGs of All-Time who are having awesome twilight years(Kidd and Nash) and two former NBA Finals MVPs(Billiups and Parker)

I'm not going to have a problem with anyone putting any of these guys ahead of Rondo

But clearly based on his stats this year and overall play, he's right behind them at worst and there's clearly no way I can see anyone having 10 or more currently playing PGs ahead of him on a list
Pick 2 Knicks

PG: George Hill, Ty Lawson
SG: Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Quentin Richardson
SF: Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, D
PF: Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin, Jon Brockman, Dante Cunningham
C:  Nene Hilario,   Own rights: Nikola Pekovic IR: Kyle Weaver

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #107 on: March 13, 2010, 12:59:56 PM »

Offline snively

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I don't understand how anyone can rate Parker higher than Rondo.  He's a better scorer, although Rondo is catching up, and a slightly better shooter, but he's substantially inferior in every other aspect of the game: playmaking, rebounding, defense.

And I can't believe that More Banners has Curry, Miller, Davis, Collison and Brooks knocking on the top-10 door ahead of Rondo.  Nice players all, but none have approached Rondo's impact this season.

Rondo's biggest current competitors for top 5 as Billups, Nash and Kidd age out of contention are Paul, Williams, Westbrook (if his shooting efficiency can improve) and Rose (if his defense and playmaking abilities improve). 
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Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2010, 01:42:52 PM »

Offline More Banners

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I don't understand how anyone can rate Parker higher than Rondo.  He's a better scorer, although Rondo is catching up, and a slightly better shooter, but he's substantially inferior in every other aspect of the game: playmaking, rebounding, defense.

And I can't believe that More Banners has Curry, Miller, Davis, Collison and Brooks knocking on the top-10 door ahead of Rondo.  Nice players all, but none have approached Rondo's impact this season.

Rondo's biggest current competitors for top 5 as Billups, Nash and Kidd age out of contention are Paul, Williams, Westbrook (if his shooting efficiency can improve) and Rose (if his defense and playmaking abilities improve). 

Double checking what I wrote, I didn't actually rank the players, having learned from prior posts that doing that draws out more insults than discussion on these boards.  So I just wrote some names down, and let others discuss, which I've been enjoying reading very much.

What I did write was that top-10 for Rajon is debatable, not that he isn't in it.  I also suggested that stats are not the only criteria, since they sometimes come with a trade-off.  I mentioned assists, but his rank in steals comes at a clear price because his gambling costs points, too, even though his steals MIGHT prevent points.  Just counting steals doesn't give the whole picture, right?

------

It's hard to compare PG's, partly because it involves comparing the team and system they are on/in.  We could break down skills, which inherently ends up being a subjective and biased debate, or rank compared to other PG's, but that involves comparing the systems as much as the players.

There is one other possible way to assess where the C's are by committing to Rondo for the long term:

How often do we expect to have a CLEAR advantage over our opponent at the PG spot?  Perhaps may compensate for players being effective in different ways, and for varying levels of overall team talent...perhaps.

I'll go out on a limb:

Assuming good health, I don't think we'd have a clear advantage over CP, Deron Williams, Nash, or even Kidd.  We don't have a CLEAR advantage at PG against Rose, Miller, Jameer Nelson (when he's been healthy), Westabrook, Billups, Collison, Curry, or even Devin Harris.  I think that may soon be true of Brandon Jennings as well.  We do have a clear advantage at that spot over about 60% of the league.  So I'd agree that Rondo is above average, but not superstar/franchise player-level.

Another point made by a few here is that Rondo is only 24.  I don't know what that means, but I presume it to suggest that he will get better, but I'm not sure how.  He has more confidence in his shot, but his FT% hasn't improved a lick (I think FT% is a decent measure of shooting ability).  That would seem to be the main area to improve, and I'm not sure it's happening.

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #109 on: March 13, 2010, 01:58:43 PM »

Offline PLamb

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So if we are going to delve into who we have a CLEAR advantage over would it not then be prudent to see who Rondo has actually outplayed during the past couple of years in head to head competition?

Because say what you want when Rondo has gone up against the best, he has outplayed them in that one to one, head to head combat much more often than he has been outplayed

It's easy to look at paper and say, who does he have a CLEAR advantage over but how about you look at the actual performances against those players

Rondo beats them in those head to head meeting much more than he doesn't and SO, your CLEAR advantage opinion should probably be revised
Pick 2 Knicks

PG: George Hill, Ty Lawson
SG: Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Quentin Richardson
SF: Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, D
PF: Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin, Jon Brockman, Dante Cunningham
C:  Nene Hilario,   Own rights: Nikola Pekovic IR: Kyle Weaver

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #110 on: March 13, 2010, 02:28:59 PM »

Offline Who

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I have Rajon Rondo ranked as fourth best point guard in the league behind Deron Williams (#1), Chris Paul (#2) and Chauncey Billups (#3).

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #111 on: March 13, 2010, 02:31:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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How often do we expect to have a CLEAR advantage over our opponent at the PG spot?  Perhaps may compensate for players being effective in different ways, and for varying levels of overall team talent...perhaps.

I'll go out on a limb:

Assuming good health, I don't think we'd have a clear advantage over CP, Deron Williams, Nash, or even Kidd.  We don't have a CLEAR advantage at PG against Rose, Miller, Jameer Nelson (when he's been healthy), Westabrook, Billups, Collison, Curry, or even Devin Harris.  I think that may soon be true of Brandon Jennings as well.  We do have a clear advantage at that spot over about 60% of the league.  So I'd agree that Rondo is above average, but not superstar/franchise player-level.

  If you look on 82games.com you can see PER differential between players and opponents per 48 minutes. For startng PGs Rondo has the 4th highest differential in the league (by a decent amount), so we're winning the pg matchup considerably more than you think. Rondo scores about the same as opposing PGs on one fewer shot, outrebounds them, and his assist/turnover ratio (3.3) is DOUBLE what he allows. You're kidding yourself if you don't think we have a CLEAR advantage over most of those players, unless scoring or (just as likely) outside shooting is your main criteria for evaluating point guards.

Another point made by a few here is that Rondo is only 24.  I don't know what that means, but I presume it to suggest that he will get better, but I'm not sure how.  He has more confidence in his shot, but his FT% hasn't improved a lick (I think FT% is a decent measure of shooting ability).  That would seem to be the main area to improve, and I'm not sure it's happening.

  First of all it's not at all unusual for players Rondo's age or older to significantly improve their shooting. Secondly, there's a lot more to being a pg than shooting. His defense is, by most accounts (including Doc and Danny and the players) better than last year. His passing has clearly improved, as has his finishing around the basket. His scoring overall is also better than last year and he's more consistent. Again, look at the older PGs on your list of as good/better than Rondo and check their career stats. How many of them are no better now than they were at 24?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:49:30 PM by BballTim »

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2010, 04:37:04 PM »

Offline More Banners

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So if we are going to delve into who we have a CLEAR advantage over would it not then be prudent to see who Rondo has actually outplayed during the past couple of years in head to head competition?

Because say what you want when Rondo has gone up against the best, he has outplayed them in that one to one, head to head combat much more often than he has been outplayed

It's easy to look at paper and say, who does he have a CLEAR advantage over but how about you look at the actual performances against those players

Rondo beats them in those head to head meeting much more than he doesn't and SO, your CLEAR advantage opinion should probably be revised

Without question, Rondo gets up for games against top competition, so much that he was called out on it over the summer-that he needed to get up for every game.  My take is that he saw those matchups as a chance to assert himself as a top PG.  No question he showed he can hang with the best.

Looking at some recent randomly selected head-to-head box scores:

I'm not sure that Rondo's 17/1/8 with 2 turnovers on 7-15 shooting in 35 min. is a clear advantage over Mike Conley's 12/6/6 on 5/9 shooting, including 2/3 on 3's, in 29 minutes.  Would we say Conley is better than Rondo?  No, but the numbers suggest they played to a near standstill.  Using overall stats, Rondo is clearly better than Conley, but in this head to head, they were pretty close, overall, by the numbers.

Another example:  Rondo posted 15/4/7 with 4 TO's on 6/12 shooting in a touch under 37 minutes with one steal, while Randy Foye (a very different, but talented, player) went for 9/2/8 with 3 TO's on wretched 3/14 shooting (0/5 from 3) and 2 steals.  An off-night shooting for Foye is the only thing that tilts this toward Rondo, as the other areas are pretty close.

Another:  Rondo:  8/4/6 with 3 TO's on 4/8 shooting with 1 steal in 27.5 minutes; Raymond Felton: 4/5/6 on 1/6 shooting, zero TO's and steals.  The numbers suggest this was a draw at PG as well.

Rondo:  15/5/11 with 4 TO's and 2 STL on healthy 7/12 shooting.  Billups squeaked out 26/4/7 on 7/11 shooting, including 2/4 from 3, with 3 TO's and 1 BLK.  For some reason, Rajon took 3 shots from 3 in this game, hitting none.  I give the advantage to Billups on this one.

Against Devin Harris, Rondo had 17 assists when we got killed, posting 13/6/17 with 4TO's and 3STL's on 5/9 shooting.  Harris put up 23/1/5 on 6/16 shooting (1/4 from 3, and a perfect 10/10 from the line), matching Rondo's 4 TO's and 3 STL.  Rondo got mad assists in this losing effort, but the box score suggests Harris' ability to get to the line and score compensated for Rondo's assists.  Since Rondo had more than half of the team's assists and we got killed, the numbers suggest his assisting didn't really help us all that much.  Hard to read a game like this, so let's look at the earlier game:

On Feb 5th, Rondo put up a very solid 17/3/11 with only 2 TO's on 6/8 shooting, 3 STL, 1 BLK in a whopping 44 minutes.  Harris posted 17/2/8 with 3 TO's on 6/15 shooting (0/5 from 3), with no steals or blocks in a more normal 35 minutes.  This one looks like a draw.  The early Jan game was more typical, with Rondo getting the assist advantage and Harris having the scoring advantage.  Overall, I'd say Rondo/Harris is a Rondo advantage, but possibly because Harris doesn't have anyone to pass to, and is a primary scorer that gets more defensive attention.  I'm not sure that talent-wise there is a huge advantage.

Just thought I'd look at a few non-marquee matchups, instead of just the big-name matchups.  It appears that Rondo's advantage over "average" PG's like Conley, Felton, Foye, and Harris is slight, if any, based on a handful of recent games, at least.  Since we're all bigger homers than Tommy, we rate him astronomically high, and since he's the franchise's only real talent for the future, the franchise does, too, because they HAVE to.

For kicks:  against Dallas at home on 1/18, Rondo went 7/4/12 on 3/8 shooting w/2 TO's and 2 STLs in 37 minutes, which is great.  J-Kidd went 13/4/17 on 5/7 shooting, including 3/3 from 3, with 3 TO's and a steal.  Rondo was great, but Kidd was clearly better.

Just some food for thought.  This take suggests that Billups and Kidd were clearly better head to head, and Felton, Harris, Foye, and Conley were not far from even matchups, by the numbers, in recent games.  One could conclude that although Rondo is clearly a solid starting PG and a very good one, he's not the best player on a great team, but perhaps a guy that could be combined with other very good players to make a very, very good team that might have a shot, which is pretty much what the C's are right now.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 05:01:14 PM by More Banners »

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2010, 05:05:49 PM »

Offline PLamb

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Sorry More Banners your cherry picking of some games here and there doesn't negate the fact that I wouldn't need to cheery pick all the times Rondo has outplayed and outperformed his opposition

Also, at least 3 of the examples you gave, I would favor Rondo in

Don't see your point of view or understand it

Basketball pundits around the country concur more with the point of view that Rondo is an elite PG in this league and not just average

Heck the coaches voted him on the All-Star team and the consensus was that he was clearly the best PG in the Eastern Conference

Average PGs aren't usually called the best in a conference
Pick 2 Knicks

PG: George Hill, Ty Lawson
SG: Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Quentin Richardson
SF: Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, D
PF: Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin, Jon Brockman, Dante Cunningham
C:  Nene Hilario,   Own rights: Nikola Pekovic IR: Kyle Weaver

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2010, 05:58:03 PM »

Offline snively

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We don't have a CLEAR advantage at PG against Rose, Miller, Jameer Nelson (when he's been healthy), Westabrook, Billups, Collison, Curry, or even Devin Harris.  I think that may soon be true of Brandon Jennings as well.  We do have a clear advantage at that spot over about 60% of the league.  So I'd agree that Rondo is above average, but not superstar/franchise player-level.


The NBA is not rock, paper, scissors: head-to-head matchups do not determine the pecking order.  It's performance over time, and by that metric, Rondo rates higher than Rose, Miller, Jameer Nelson, Westbrook, Collison, Curry, Devin Harris and Brandon Jennings.

Why?  He doesn't huck up bricks at terrible percentages like Westbrook, Harris and Jennings; he doesn't play awful defense, shoot-first or depend so heavily on a streaky J like Jameer Nelson (and Steph Curry to an extent); he has a much, much better floor game than Derrick Rose (and Collison); and he's a much better defender than Miller, while also being a much more dangerous and efficient offensive player despite sharing the same perimeter limitations.

Rondo gives you 15 pts on 50% shooting, 10 assists, 4-5 boards, and 2-3 steals a game with above-average defense.  That's legitimate all-star production that players he supposedly doesn't have a clear advantage over can't even sniff.
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SG: Kobe Bryant/Eric Gordon
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PF: Al Horford/Zion Williamson
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Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2010, 05:59:45 PM »

Offline ACF

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If Rondo is "average", I am the next Michael Jordan. Two bold statements and none of them true.

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2010, 06:34:13 PM »

Offline Who

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The NBA is not rock, paper, scissors: head-to-head matchups do not determine the pecking order. It's performance over time 
I don't think is true. I don't think you can discount how effective or ineffective a player is when matched up against players at his own position.

I think the head-to-head matchups play a very important role in deciding how talented an individual player is. It's not much use if your player pads his stat line against lousy competition but comes up short whenever he's faced against the best players at his position (extreme example to prove the point). It's also a big factor is an excellent player but routinely struggles against certain types of opposing players (quick guards, big guards, whatever). That too lowers his value.

I also think head-to-head matchups is a strength for Rajon Rondo given how successful he has been against many of the elite point guards in the league + that he still plays down to the level of his competition (lesser point guards) too often. I don't believe that is a problem with the matchup (other guy making his life difficult) as much as it is a problem with his consistency/focus/effort.

Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2010, 06:54:04 PM »

Offline cdif911

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if Rondo is average, Manute Bol is kinda tall...
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Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2010, 07:16:50 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Sorry More Banners your cherry picking of some games here and there doesn't negate the fact that I wouldn't need to cheery pick all the times Rondo has outplayed and outperformed his opposition

Also, at least 3 of the examples you gave, I would favor Rondo in

Don't see your point of view or understand it

Basketball pundits around the country concur more with the point of view that Rondo is an elite PG in this league and not just average

Heck the coaches voted him on the All-Star team and the consensus was that he was clearly the best PG in the Eastern Conference

Average PGs aren't usually called the best in a conference

What I didn't do was define what a "clear advantage" would be, so reasonable and intelligent people can surely disagree, as is the case here.  FTR: I think Rondo's above average, and wrote that.  But I also think that some talented PG's currently starting for "troubled" teams would look quite a bit better on our team, too.  I include guys like Devin Harris, Andre Miller, and Foye (who would be a nice offseason backup comboguard pickup, IMHO) in that group.

Really, the problem is just that it's hard to rank players that have a very different style of game and different strengths.  Rondo is a passer, and only an opportunistic scorer, so comparing him to true scoring PG's like Foye and Harris is tough, made even harder by the huge difference in their respective supporting casts.  It's apples and oranges:  is 10/10 better than 18/6 with some 3's?  The answer really depends on what the respective team needs, right?  Thoughtful and informed observers give the advantage to one guy or the other, depending on what each gives higher weight to.

As far as all-star selections go, the league makes no pretense that selection means the players are the best.  An early season injury wipes out any chance of making the team, right?  Being on a losing team, even as a top player, lowers the chances of making the AS team, right?  So all-star selection is really not a valid measure of a player's talent or ability relative to other players, unless it is a reference to marketing ability or selling jerseys.  Magloire made the all-star team.  Gerald Wallace was perennially passed over because the Bobcats weren't good, not because he himself wasn't worthy.

There are innumerable intangables and qualifiers that make different games/styles/players hard to rank, mainly because basketball is a beautifully complex sport.  So, yeah, it isn't easy to rank players, especially PG's.  Respectful people can disagree respectfullly, without insults or sarcasm, which I appreciate when it happens on the boards.  Thanks, and TP for diplomacy.


Re: Rondo is Average
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2010, 07:44:33 PM »

Offline mmbaby

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If Rhondo is average, I must be having a psychotic breakdown and a total loss of touch with reality.