Author Topic: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger  (Read 9438 times)

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Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« on: February 22, 2010, 05:08:56 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Good insight into this from Hollinger. I know Brickowski often says no one ever got rich trading with Petrie, but when you consider their myriad terrible contracts and the points he makes here, one has to consider whether they've slipped.

I'm sure someone will say they'd rather have Landry than the picks and Hill (which I disagree with), but I think that misses the point: who knows what more they could have received.

"And now we get to what are the two biggest unanswered questions from the trade deadline: How was it that the Rockets, armed with only Tracy McGrady's expiring contract and Carl Landry's cap-friendly one, walked away from the trade deadline with the best haul of anybody ... by far?

In retrospect, this is puzzling. Houston wasn't the only team with enough expiring contracts and luxury-tax room to take on Jared Jeffries, nor were the Rockets the only team with a star player on an expiring deal who could have helped the Knicks immediately.

What the Rockets were was (A) persistent, and (B) clever. And that makes them stand out in relation to their partners in this deal.

Consider the Kings, for instance. They had a coveted star in Kevin Martin, $13 million in expiring contracts belonging to Kenny Thomas, Sergio Rodriguez, Hilton Armstrong, Ime Udoka and Sean May, and $1.6 million in cap room to do an unbalanced trade. They should have been controlling the entire game on deadline day.

Unfortunately, they didn't choose to play. Sacramento didn't let teams know Martin was available, and in fact insisted he wasn't available; unlike Phoenix with Stoudemire, the Kings have no idea if Houston's offer was the best one they could have had. In fact, there's considerable evidence they could have done much better -- possibly by bypassing the Rockets entirely.

Consider, for starters, what would have been the perfect home for Martin: Boston. The Kings could have sent Martin and little-used Andres Nocioni to the Celtics for Ray Allen and a first-round pick, and cleared $18 million in cap room (the Celtics, given their current time horizon, would have blurted out yes to this offer in a nanosecond).

They then could have used Allen and Kenny Thomas in a deal with the Knicks and walked away with the exact same trove of assets that the Rockets did. If so, Sacramento wouldn't have Landry, but look at what they'd have instead: Jordan Hill, New York's 2012 first-rounder, Boston's 2011 first-rounder, the right to swap picks with New York in 2011 (admittedly, an item of more value to Houston given the two clubs' likely records next season), and the same cap room they cleared with the Martin trade.

The only reason they don't have those assets, it would appear, is that they didn't ask. While the Kings fiddled, Houston forced the action and squeezed all it could from New York. When the Knicks wouldn't flinch, the Rockets scrambled to get alternate deals in place: first an all-smoke, no-fire rumor with Chicago, and then a late deal with Sacramento that both pried Martin free and thrust the Knicks into action.

That story echoes a fairly constant background noise that's been heard about Sacramento in recent years. The Kings have a small front office and nearly everybody in it has been there forever; one gets the impression not that they've lost their basketball acumen, but that they aren't putting in the legwork anymore.

A series of lazy deals -- giving Beno Udrih the full midlevel rather than checking out the point guard market, or signing Francisco Garcia to a ridiculous $35 million extension -- were the first indicators, and this is the latest. Sacramento made an OK deal with Martin -- I gave the Kings a B-plus on the merits of the trade itself -- but the Kings had the assets to put together a great deal and failed.

The reason they didn't isn't because the Rockets had some master computer program that outsmarted everybody. No, this had a more simple cause: The Kings got outhustled.

The irony here is that a dozen years ago the Kings were the ones outworking other teams to unearth good deals. They were the ones discovering a trove of hidden talent in Europe (Peja Stojakovic, Hedo Turkoglu) and beating the bushes to pluck players like Jon Barry, Scot Pollard and Doug Christie off the scrap heap. And the last time they traded a star shooting guard, they didn't come away with Carl Landry: They got Chris Webber.

The Kings weren't the only ones who sold themselves short, by the way. Several other NBA execs were disappointed they hadn't been told more openly of Martin's availability, feeling they had the goods to make a substantial offer for his services. Boston was a perfect fit, but by no means the only one.

Thus, we get to perhaps the greatest unknown of this year's trade season: What contender might have been able to win the Martin sweepstakes had such an event been held, and how might that have altered the coming postseason?"
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 06:13:46 PM »

Offline footey

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Curious if any ESPN insider can summarize what Hollinger said on what would have happened if Ray Allen trade went down. Thanks.

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 06:47:59 PM »

Offline PLamb

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This is the part pertinent to the Celtics

Quote
Why did Houston end up with all those assets, and not anybody else?


And now we get to what are the two biggest unanswered questions from the trade deadline: How was it that the Rockets, armed with only Tracy McGrady's expiring contract and Carl Landry's cap-friendly one, walked away from the trade deadline with the best haul of anybody ... by far?

In retrospect, this is puzzling. Houston wasn't the only team with enough expiring contracts and luxury-tax room to take on Jared Jeffries, nor were the Rockets the only team with a star player on an expiring deal who could have helped the Knicks immediately.

What the Rockets were was (A) persistent, and (B) clever. And that makes them stand out in relation to their partners in this deal.

Consider the Kings, for instance. They had a coveted star in Kevin Martin, $13 million in expiring contracts belonging to Kenny Thomas, Sergio Rodriguez, Hilton Armstrong, Ime Udoka and Sean May, and $1.6 million in cap room to do an unbalanced trade. They should have been controlling the entire game on deadline day.

Unfortunately, they didn't choose to play. Sacramento didn't let teams know Martin was available, and in fact insisted he wasn't available; unlike Phoenix with Stoudemire, the Kings have no idea if Houston's offer was the best one they could have had. In fact, there's considerable evidence they could have done much better -- possibly by bypassing the Rockets entirely.

Consider, for starters, what would have been the perfect home for Martin: Boston. The Kings could have sent Martin and little-used Andres Nocioni to the Celtics for Ray Allen and a first-round pick, and cleared $18 million in cap room (the Celtics, given their current time horizon, would have blurted out yes to this offer in a nanosecond).

They then could have used Allen and Kenny Thomas in a deal with the Knicks and walked away with the exact same trove of assets that the Rockets did. If so, Sacramento wouldn't have Landry, but look at what they'd have instead: Jordan Hill, New York's 2012 first-rounder, Boston's 2011 first-rounder, the right to swap picks with New York in 2011 (admittedly, an item of more value to Houston given the two clubs' likely records next season), and the same cap room they cleared with the Martin trade.

The only reason they don't have those assets, it would appear, is that they didn't ask. While the Kings fiddled, Houston forced the action and squeezed all it could from New York. When the Knicks wouldn't flinch, the Rockets scrambled to get alternate deals in place: first an all-smoke, no-fire rumor with Chicago, and then a late deal with Sacramento that both pried Martin free and thrust the Knicks into action.

That story echoes a fairly constant background noise that's been heard about Sacramento in recent years. The Kings have a small front office and nearly everybody in it has been there forever; one gets the impression not that they've lost their basketball acumen, but that they aren't putting in the legwork anymore.

A series of lazy deals -- giving Beno Udrih the full midlevel rather than checking out the point guard market, or signing Francisco Garcia to a ridiculous $35 million extension -- were the first indicators, and this is the latest. Sacramento made an OK deal with Martin -- I gave the Kings a B-plus on the merits of the trade itself -- but the Kings had the assets to put together a great deal and failed.

The reason they didn't isn't because the Rockets had some master computer program that outsmarted everybody. No, this had a more simple cause: The Kings got outhustled.

The irony here is that a dozen years ago the Kings were the ones outworking other teams to unearth good deals. They were the ones discovering a trove of hidden talent in Europe (Peja Stojakovic, Hedo Turkoglu) and beating the bushes to pluck players like Jon Barry, Scot Pollard and Doug Christie off the scrap heap. And the last time they traded a star shooting guard, they didn't come away with Carl Landry: They got Chris Webber.

The Kings weren't the only ones who sold themselves short, by the way. Several other NBA execs were disappointed they hadn't been told more openly of Martin's availability, feeling they had the goods to make a substantial offer for his services. Boston was a perfect fit, but by no means the only one.

Thus, we get to perhaps the greatest unknown of this year's trade season: What contender might have been able to win the Martin sweepstakes had such an event been held, and how might that have altered the coming postseason?
Pick 2 Knicks

PG: George Hill, Ty Lawson
SG: Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Quentin Richardson
SF: Grant Hill, Matt Barnes, D
PF: Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin, Jon Brockman, Dante Cunningham
C:  Nene Hilario,   Own rights: Nikola Pekovic IR: Kyle Weaver

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 07:05:07 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I am sorry but I do not believe for a second that the C's would have (could have?) taken both Martin and Nocioni's contracts.  I have stated numerous times that I believe Ainge when he said they were looking for an expiring contract and a player for Ray.  And this, ultimately is one of the biggest reasons that they not make a trade using Ray.

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 07:16:30 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Morey is the GM gold standard in this league.

No one else is even close.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 07:17:22 PM »

Offline colincb

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I'm under the impression that BOS lost interest at some point (maybe after watching Martin up close that game night). If SAC didn't talk to DA, then Hollinger has a case, but this smells like the usual Hollinger BS.

Secondly, it's unlikely that the Knicks would have offered the Kings the same deal. The Knicks would have suddenly found another possible trading partner to use as leverage against Houston's demands and SHOULD have been able to cut themselves a better deal (but we are talking about the fubar-dysfunctional Knicks front office).

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 07:38:47 PM »

Offline More Banners

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Looks like BS to me.

As already commented, it looks like Wyc didn't want to take on equal salary going forward for Ray, but a player plus an expiring.  That's a pretty big difference.  It also assumes that Danny would give up the 1st round pick, which is not a sure thing, either.  To both give up a pick AND take back Nocioni?  BS.

Also, it assumes that Ray is equally desired by NYK as T-Mac is, which is probably not true.  If healthy, T-Mac has more to offer, and is at least a bigger marquee name to sell the fans.  We could quibble about the details, but they're clearly not the same, which the article assumes.

But perhaps the point is true, that the Kings could've received more than they did...just not from us.

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 07:45:52 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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Nobody was taking Martin + Nocioni, especially after Martin refused to back into the game in the 4th quarter against the Celtics. Someone might have taken Martin + Kenny Thomas (expiring).

The most puzzling move at the deadline was Golden State's refusal to move Monta Ellis.

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 07:51:33 PM »

Offline RJ87

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Morey is the GM gold standard in this league.

No one else is even close.

Yup, he pwned the trade deadline.

He really set up his club to be a factor for the next few years. If Yao is close to full strength next season, they'll be a contender. Even if he's not, they'll still get a playoff birth.
2021 Houston Rockets
PG: Kyrie Irving/Patty Mills/Jalen Brunson
SG: OG Anunoby/Norman Powell/Matisse Thybulle
SF: Gordon Hayward/Demar Derozan
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo/Robert Covington
C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 08:05:13 PM »

Offline Andy Jick

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Morey is the GM gold standard in this league.

No one else is even close.

Yup, he pwned the trade deadline.

He really set up his club to be a factor for the next few years. If Yao is close to full strength next season, they'll be a contender. Even if he's not, they'll still get a playoff birth.

but in my opinion they're still not close to contending for a title.  and last i checked, isn't that still the objective?  everybody is touting this guy like he's the next red auerbach, but i don't see it.  after having witnessed the "potential" party line around these parts (before the arrival of garnett and allen) i've had enough of that.  morey made a nice trade but is houston really going to be all that better?  not so sure...
"It was easier to know it than to explain why I know it."

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 08:06:07 PM »

Offline jdpapa3

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Morey is the GM gold standard in this league.

No one else is even close.

I love Dork Elvis, but he has more work to do to be a championship contender. Any gm can build a middle of the pack team.

How bout our own gold standard here in Boston that brought us a championship?

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 08:09:08 PM »

Offline MBz

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Morey is the GM gold standard in this league.

No one else is even close.

I love Dork Elvis, but he has more work to do to be a championship contender. Any gm can build a middle of the pack team.

How bout our own gold standard here in Boston that brought us a championship?

I think Presti has been the best in the past 3 years.  You can say he got lucky with Durant, but other then that he's been great with his drafting and trades.
do it

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 08:19:33 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Nobody was taking Martin + Nocioni, especially after Martin refused to back into the game in the 4th quarter against the Celtics. Someone might have taken Martin + Kenny Thomas (expiring).

The most puzzling move at the deadline was Golden State's refusal to move Monta Ellis.

From what I understand it, Martin was pulled out of the game because of the Houston trade that was developing.

Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 08:30:35 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I'm a bit skeptical that Sacramento told teams that inquired about Martin that he was unavailable.  That may have been their public posture, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the only team they would trade with was Houston.  I'm sure Danny approached them, Sacramento asked for more than Boston was willing to give, and the teams moved on.

I just don't believe that any team -- at least outside of Memphis -- is dumb enough not to solicit multiple offers for its best player before trading him.  It very well could be that Carl Landry was the best player offered for Martin.

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Re: Trades that didn't take per Hollinger
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 08:56:22 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I'm a bit skeptical that Sacramento told teams that inquired about Martin that he was unavailable.  That may have been their public posture, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the only team they would trade with was Houston.  I'm sure Danny approached them, Sacramento asked for more than Boston was willing to give, and the teams moved on.

I just don't believe that any team -- at least outside of Memphis -- is dumb enough not to solicit multiple offers for its best player before trading him.  It very well could be that Carl Landry was the best player offered for Martin.

Yeah, that's pretty ridiculous. I think Martin was clearly on the market, and just about everyone knew it. I'll say this, maybe not many trade talks progressed much, but as you say to say that he was unavailable is clearly false.