Trade idea: Deng, Salmons & Pargo for Ray & Giddens

[ssspence]

My understanding of it is that a cap hold can't be more than a maximum contract. So for Ray, that would either be 30% of the cap or 105% of his previous year's pay.

Thanks -- TP

[LarBrd33]

Give them all the cap room their little hearts can handle.

Ray and Scal for Deng, Salmons and Hinrich.

They'll have a total of 11.4 million committed and be able to build around Rose and Noah.

Also I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I believe they could hang onto the cap holds for Ray and Ty Thomas and still be able to sign a max contract player.  So in other words, they wouldn't have to renounce those guys to start chasing the big money guys.  Not sure why this is important, but it might be easier for a guy like Wade to stomach being the first of the big names joining the Bulls if the Bulls say to him, "look... our goal is to bring in you, bosh and lebron... but worst case scenario you'll get stuck playing with Rose, Ty and Ray... just sign the dotted line and we can start chasing another big name".  

If they renounced Ty and Ray, they'd be able to sign 3 players to 14 mil a year in this scenario and stick them next to Noah and Rose.   

I've been discussing this with Zach Lowe at CelticsHub. He just said the following about Ray's cap hold:

DraftExpress has it at $28M based on the formula of 150 percent of his prior salary, but I’m not sure that’s right based on my reading of Salary Cap FAQ. Consulting the oracle (aka Larry Coon).

Anyone have a thought or angle on this? In any case, it's high, so they could either sign him to something reasonable off the bat, s&t Ray for a good complimentary piece, or renounce him to sign two big FAs.

This is basically what I was trying to say.   If the Bulls did some crazy total cap clearing trade of Salmons, Hinrich AND Deng for Ray + expirings (Tony, Marquis, Eddie, Scal... whoever.  Scal alone would be sufficient)... that would leave the Bulls with 11.4 mil committed next season.

HOwever, they could have a little patience and hang onto the cap hold for Ray since adding 28mil to 11 mil would still leave them in a position to sign a max contract player.  The only reason this is important is that it gives the Bulls a lot of flexibility in how they want to approach the free agent class.  THey can make max offers to Bron, Wade, Joe Johnson and Bosh (and make it be known that they want to sign 3 of them), but wouldn't have to renounce Ray until necessary.  Say Bosh is the first to come on board.... they can Sign Bosh and still hang onto Ray's bird rights.  Then they can keep those offers on the table to Wade/Bron/Joe Johnson.  Worst case scenario they just re-sign Ray (since bringing in one max contract isn't going to hinder them from re-signing Ray) ...

Another important aspect of hanging onto Ray's cap hold is that they could theoretically do a sign and trade.  I doubt any of the major teams is going to spend a considerable about of cap room signing Ray Allen... and I imagine Ray would want more than just the MLE.  If Ray is worth 7-9 mil a year, his agent might want to Bulls to sign him (they are in the position to do it with his bird rights) and then send him to a team that wants him for that price figure. 

Basically... Bulls just need to give Deng, HInrich and Salmons to Boston so they can start figuring this stuff out... 

[slamtheking]

simply put, if this deal comes across Danny's desk, it's that godfather offer he's been waiting for.

[ssspence]

Give them all the cap room their little hearts can handle.

Ray and Scal for Deng, Salmons and Hinrich.

They'll have a total of 11.4 million committed and be able to build around Rose and Noah.

Also I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I believe they could hang onto the cap holds for Ray and Ty Thomas and still be able to sign a max contract player.  So in other words, they wouldn't have to renounce those guys to start chasing the big money guys.  Not sure why this is important, but it might be easier for a guy like Wade to stomach being the first of the big names joining the Bulls if the Bulls say to him, "look... our goal is to bring in you, bosh and lebron... but worst case scenario you'll get stuck playing with Rose, Ty and Ray... just sign the dotted line and we can start chasing another big name".  

If they renounced Ty and Ray, they'd be able to sign 3 players to 14 mil a year in this scenario and stick them next to Noah and Rose.   

I've been discussing this with Zach Lowe at CelticsHub. He just said the following about Ray's cap hold:

DraftExpress has it at $28M based on the formula of 150 percent of his prior salary, but I’m not sure that’s right based on my reading of Salary Cap FAQ. Consulting the oracle (aka Larry Coon).

Anyone have a thought or angle on this? In any case, it's high, so they could either sign him to something reasonable off the bat, s&t Ray for a good complimentary piece, or renounce him to sign two big FAs.

This is basically what I was trying to say.   If the Bulls did some crazy total cap clearing trade of Salmons, Hinrich AND Deng for Ray + expirings (Tony, Marquis, Eddie, Scal... whoever.  Scal alone would be sufficient)... that would leave the Bulls with 11.4 mil committed next season.

HOwever, they could have a little patience and hang onto the cap hold for Ray since adding 28mil to 11 mil would still leave them in a position to sign a max contract player.  The only reason this is important is that it gives the Bulls a lot of flexibility in how they want to approach the free agent class.  THey can make max offers to Bron, Wade, Joe Johnson and Bosh (and make it be known that they want to sign 3 of them), but wouldn't have to renounce Ray until necessary.  Say Bosh is the first to come on board.... they can Sign Bosh and still hang onto Ray's bird rights.  Then they can keep those offers on the table to Wade/Bron/Joe Johnson.  Worst case scenario they just re-sign Ray (since bringing in one max contract isn't going to hinder them from re-signing Ray) ...

Another important aspect of hanging onto Ray's cap hold is that they could theoretically do a sign and trade.  I doubt any of the major teams is going to spend a considerable about of cap room signing Ray Allen... and I imagine Ray would want more than just the MLE.  If Ray is worth 7-9 mil a year, his agent might want to Bulls to sign him (they are in the position to do it with his bird rights) and then send him to a team that wants him for that price figure.

Basically... Bulls just need to give Deng, HInrich and Salmons to Boston so they can start figuring this stuff out... 

Yep, lotsa options. See above about his cap hold -- looks like it's $19mil.

[LarBrd33]

Give them all the cap room their little hearts can handle.

Ray and Scal for Deng, Salmons and Hinrich.

They'll have a total of 11.4 million committed and be able to build around Rose and Noah.

Also I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I believe they could hang onto the cap holds for Ray and Ty Thomas and still be able to sign a max contract player.  So in other words, they wouldn't have to renounce those guys to start chasing the big money guys.  Not sure why this is important, but it might be easier for a guy like Wade to stomach being the first of the big names joining the Bulls if the Bulls say to him, "look... our goal is to bring in you, bosh and lebron... but worst case scenario you'll get stuck playing with Rose, Ty and Ray... just sign the dotted line and we can start chasing another big name".  

If they renounced Ty and Ray, they'd be able to sign 3 players to 14 mil a year in this scenario and stick them next to Noah and Rose.   

I've been discussing this with Zach Lowe at CelticsHub. He just said the following about Ray's cap hold:

DraftExpress has it at $28M based on the formula of 150 percent of his prior salary, but I’m not sure that’s right based on my reading of Salary Cap FAQ. Consulting the oracle (aka Larry Coon).

Anyone have a thought or angle on this? In any case, it's high, so they could either sign him to something reasonable off the bat, s&t Ray for a good complimentary piece, or renounce him to sign two big FAs.

This is basically what I was trying to say.   If the Bulls did some crazy total cap clearing trade of Salmons, Hinrich AND Deng for Ray + expirings (Tony, Marquis, Eddie, Scal... whoever.  Scal alone would be sufficient)... that would leave the Bulls with 11.4 mil committed next season.

HOwever, they could have a little patience and hang onto the cap hold for Ray since adding 28mil to 11 mil would still leave them in a position to sign a max contract player.  The only reason this is important is that it gives the Bulls a lot of flexibility in how they want to approach the free agent class.  THey can make max offers to Bron, Wade, Joe Johnson and Bosh (and make it be known that they want to sign 3 of them), but wouldn't have to renounce Ray until necessary.  Say Bosh is the first to come on board.... they can Sign Bosh and still hang onto Ray's bird rights.  Then they can keep those offers on the table to Wade/Bron/Joe Johnson.  Worst case scenario they just re-sign Ray (since bringing in one max contract isn't going to hinder them from re-signing Ray) ...

Another important aspect of hanging onto Ray's cap hold is that they could theoretically do a sign and trade.  I doubt any of the major teams is going to spend a considerable about of cap room signing Ray Allen... and I imagine Ray would want more than just the MLE.  If Ray is worth 7-9 mil a year, his agent might want to Bulls to sign him (they are in the position to do it with his bird rights) and then send him to a team that wants him for that price figure.

Basically... Bulls just need to give Deng, HInrich and Salmons to Boston so they can start figuring this stuff out... 

Yep, lotsa options. See above about his cap hold -- looks like it's $19mil.

Yeah that's kind of important for Chicago in this hypothetical.  They could hang onto his cap hold without really hindering their ability to sign a max guy.  Ray probably isn't going to get a major big money offer from any of the teams with lots of money... so he'd likely just hang around waiting to see what the Bulls (with hopes of getting more money in a sign and trade) before committing to a team with the MLE.  Chicago could easily pitch to free agents:

"Best case scenario:  You sign on board and we lure two more max guys.   Worst case scenario:  you're joining a team with Rose, Noah and either Ray Allen or what we get for Ray Allen in a sign and trade... + craploads of cap room for us to sign talent with"   Once they land one of the big fish, it's all over.  The options are endless.   Say Bosh signs for max money.  Now they have roughly 26 mil committed to Noah, Bosh and Rose.   They could sign and trade Ray making 7-9 mil and take back 30 mil in salary.  Lol.  Say the Kings are finally ready to dump Martin and their bad contracts.   Bulls could sign and trade Ray making 9 mil... and take back Martin, Noccioni and Udrih to join with Noah, Bosh and Rose.   Endless opportunities.  Do it, Chicago.  Do it!

[ssspence]

Give them all the cap room their little hearts can handle.

Ray and Scal for Deng, Salmons and Hinrich.

They'll have a total of 11.4 million committed and be able to build around Rose and Noah.

Also I'm not exactly sure how it would work, but I believe they could hang onto the cap holds for Ray and Ty Thomas and still be able to sign a max contract player.  So in other words, they wouldn't have to renounce those guys to start chasing the big money guys.  Not sure why this is important, but it might be easier for a guy like Wade to stomach being the first of the big names joining the Bulls if the Bulls say to him, "look... our goal is to bring in you, bosh and lebron... but worst case scenario you'll get stuck playing with Rose, Ty and Ray... just sign the dotted line and we can start chasing another big name".  

If they renounced Ty and Ray, they'd be able to sign 3 players to 14 mil a year in this scenario and stick them next to Noah and Rose.   

I've been discussing this with Zach Lowe at CelticsHub. He just said the following about Ray's cap hold:

DraftExpress has it at $28M based on the formula of 150 percent of his prior salary, but I’m not sure that’s right based on my reading of Salary Cap FAQ. Consulting the oracle (aka Larry Coon).

Anyone have a thought or angle on this? In any case, it's high, so they could either sign him to something reasonable off the bat, s&t Ray for a good complimentary piece, or renounce him to sign two big FAs.

This is basically what I was trying to say.   If the Bulls did some crazy total cap clearing trade of Salmons, Hinrich AND Deng for Ray + expirings (Tony, Marquis, Eddie, Scal... whoever.  Scal alone would be sufficient)... that would leave the Bulls with 11.4 mil committed next season.

HOwever, they could have a little patience and hang onto the cap hold for Ray since adding 28mil to 11 mil would still leave them in a position to sign a max contract player.  The only reason this is important is that it gives the Bulls a lot of flexibility in how they want to approach the free agent class.  THey can make max offers to Bron, Wade, Joe Johnson and Bosh (and make it be known that they want to sign 3 of them), but wouldn't have to renounce Ray until necessary.  Say Bosh is the first to come on board.... they can Sign Bosh and still hang onto Ray's bird rights.  Then they can keep those offers on the table to Wade/Bron/Joe Johnson.  Worst case scenario they just re-sign Ray (since bringing in one max contract isn't going to hinder them from re-signing Ray) ...

Another important aspect of hanging onto Ray's cap hold is that they could theoretically do a sign and trade.  I doubt any of the major teams is going to spend a considerable about of cap room signing Ray Allen... and I imagine Ray would want more than just the MLE.  If Ray is worth 7-9 mil a year, his agent might want to Bulls to sign him (they are in the position to do it with his bird rights) and then send him to a team that wants him for that price figure.

Basically... Bulls just need to give Deng, HInrich and Salmons to Boston so they can start figuring this stuff out... 

Yep, lotsa options. See above about his cap hold -- looks like it's $19mil.

Yeah that's kind of important for Chicago in this hypothetical.  They could hang onto his cap hold without really hindering their ability to sign a max guy.  Ray probably isn't going to get a major big money offer from any of the teams with lots of money... so he'd likely just hang around waiting to see what the Bulls (with hopes of getting more money in a sign and trade) before committing to a team with the MLE.  Chicago could easily pitch to free agents:

"Best case scenario:  You sign on board and we lure two more max guys.   Worst case scenario:  you're joining a team with Rose, Noah and either Ray Allen or what we get for Ray Allen in a sign and trade... + craploads of cap room for us to sign talent with"   Once they land one of the big fish, it's all over.  The options are endless.   Say Bosh signs for max money.  Now they have roughly 26 mil committed to Noah, Bosh and Rose.   They could sign and trade Ray making 7-9 mil and take back 30 mil in salary.  Lol.  Say the Kings are finally ready to dump Martin and their bad contracts.   Bulls could sign and trade Ray making 9 mil... and take back Martin, Noccioni and Udrih to join with Noah, Bosh and Rose.   Endless opportunities.  Do it, Chicago.  Do it!

Right. This would require Chicago to be risk takers -- which they're not. Maybe they've learned their lesson.

Meanwhile, they let Ben Gordon go for a reason. If they can't trade Hinrich before the deadline -- which I believe will simply not happen -- then they're going to hzve to consider Deng.

[arctic 3.0]

deng and hinrich? DANG!  two of the most versatile, hard nosed defenders in the game? gimme gimme!

only question is whether pierce and deng will allow for good spacing on offense. and who'd guarding the opo's shooting guard... oh yeah, sick hinrich on the poor sob.

[ThaPreacher]

simply put, if this deal comes across Danny's desk, it's that godfather offer he's been waiting for.

Deng, who?
He started with a spark, but seriously, what has he done lately?
The Bulls have alot of pieces, have had alot of pieces, and they can't seem to play defense or work together.

Deng Heinrich and Salmons would be a curious lot.
But the fact of the matter is, Heinrich isn't as good as Ray Allen, younger yes.  Better no.
Salmons has some value, but wouldn't you rather have  Martin,
Rip Hamilton, Ellis, or Iggy?

Perk, Baby, have trade value along with expiring contracts of TA and Scal.  Ray aint' going anywhere near Chicago, not for this lot.

[arctic 3.0]

simply put, if this deal comes across Danny's desk, it's that godfather offer he's been waiting for.

Deng, who?
He started with a spark, but seriously, what has he done lately?
The Bulls have alot of pieces, have had alot of pieces, and they can't seem to play defense or work together.

Deng Heinrich and Salmons would be a curious lot.
But the fact of the matter is, Heinrich isn't as good as Ray Allen, younger yes.  Better no.
Salmons has some value, but wouldn't you rather have  Martin,
Rip Hamilton, Ellis, or Iggy?

Perk, Baby, have trade value along with expiring contracts of TA and Scal.  Ray aint' going anywhere near Chicago, not for this lot.

aside from the year he spent injured (50+ games missed over 07/08 and 08/09) deng has been terrific. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2429

[CoachBo]

One word: No.

[snively]

I'd do it, but I don't see why Chicago would.  They shouldn't have much of a problem moving Hinrich's similarly sized contract, and I'm sure they could get much better value for a player as young and good as Deng.

[BballTim]

before you assume they won't move deng, consider this:

the bulls would have only 20mil in salaries this summer if they do this trade, then tell tyrus thomas to take a hike, including the following players: rose, heinrich, noah, james johnson and taj gibson. they'd also have ray's bird rights if they decided not to renounce them after signing a guy like bosh. wow.

guys like lebron, wade, bosh, jj and stat would be all over chicago.

  Put LeBron or Wade on that team and they're still not a contender.

[PosImpos]

If the Bulls really want to go all in for this summer, they might do it.  Pretty risky proposition that could easily screw them over, though.

I wouldn't worry about fitting Deng into the lineup.  He's a versatile player who's very skilled and has range out to the 3 point line. 

[jdub1660]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhysk7v
Call it a pipe dream for us but it makes sense for Simmons idea of Chicago targeting 3 big names

Hinrich,Deng,Tyrus and Salmons
Ray,Scal,Giddens,Walker and House plus draft picks galore..

All of those contracts are expiring or paid out with trade exceptions. We get a new SG and a DEEP bench and we'd basically be set for the next 5 years - Rondo,Hinrich,Deng,Tyrus,Perk

[P2]

Very interesting trade. With that said, the trade deadline can't come soon enough (11 days away).