I'm begining to dislike Rasheed as a Celtic.

[Atzar]

Can't compare Grant Hill to Wallace.

Hill's body doesn't have the NBA miles that Wallace has had.

There's a legit reason why Grant is playing really well this year and last, he's finally healthy for once and he hasn't had season after season of getting beaten down or worn down like Sheed has had.

Hill had 4 lost seasons out of 6 with the Magic. In those 4 lost years he managed to play only 68 games, that's maybe good for one full season. Sheed has missed only 33 games over the last 5 seasons with Detroit.

Eddie House is not shooting as bad as Sheed is shooting. In fact, Eddie is shooting a crisp 43% from 3 point land. That's +12% better than Sheed.

Sheed also has a relatively low-impact style of play and a very healthy career. 

Casperian, if you're going to balk at having Sheed because he might get hurt, then we better get rid of the big 3 ASAP - they're on the wrong side of 30 and they might get hurt!

You clearly have a different opinion of Sheed than I do.  In general, I think it would be a waste of time to try to convince you that I'm right - I won't influence your opinion, just like you won't influence mine. 

Most of your points simply reflect that difference of opinion, and I'll agree to disagree with you on them.  #5, though, is garbage.  You're talking about a player who has never had injury problems, is healthy now by all accounts, has a low impact game for a big man and who is playing the fewest minutes in his career.  There's no way that should be considered a 'red flag', especially since you already addressed his age in your first point.  At most, it should simply be included there. 

[Drucci]

I'm fine with Sheed. He provides a huge relief for KG off the bench, plays quality minutes and good D. Sure, his three pointers are not falling right own, and he takes many of them but overall they are good looks and I've seen him pass a few of them to make the extra pass these past few games.

He's got an impact that is not valuable with statistics only ; he stretches the floor on offense and gives us a good inside presence on D with the bench, so it's huge.

People who say Sheed isn't motivated and will quit the team in the playoffs don't know him. The guy is a competitor and I like his game (like when he went for a loose ball against Golden State, diving on the floor).

And I expect him to be much more efficient in the playoffs. Sheed is motivated but he likes to cruise during the season, and frankly, at 35 years old, I can't blame him since it will prevent him from getting injured or tired.

Sure, he is sometimes frustrating or annoying (the constant whining over the refs, the "whatever attitude") but so are all our players, they've got good and bad sides. Fortunately, they have more good than bad sides so we should feel pretty lucky.

[greenwise]

When people start making long threads about how Sheed needs to play less, Shelden is ugly, Doc is bad at substitutions, Leon should have been signed, French people should be ashamed and all the panic button ones.... they really make me not visit the blog on that precise day. What is going on with some people?

[Tai]

Right now, I just see you as a downer on Rasheed.

Yay for endless-posts.

1. Agree to disagree. 40% from a big man who quits in the playoffs is nowhere near acceptable.

2. Does it matter? As I´ve said, it´s the same old Sheed in a different jersey.

3. Shelden Williams also has great stats for someone coming off the bench. Do you think these things could be related?

4. What´s your point? Yes, I´m still against Grant Hill. His play in Phoenix is no indicator for how he would play here, and it certainly doesn´t debunk my argument that I´m concerned about an old team. One vet alone doesn´t make an old team.

5. Absolutely crazy to assume that a 36-year-old could have problems with injuries!  Sounds a lot like the talk I´ve heard before KG went down about how we could contend for the next 5 years.

6. Which would be fine by me.

7. Isn´t it funny how in the span of two month I went from "the biggest Ainge apologist" to "someone who gives managerial advice"? As if I wouldn´t be allowed to disagree with the decisions of the GM of my team. Noone on CB is allowed to.
Question: When you read a trade proposal on CB, do you think AInge reads it and thinks: "[dang], why didn´t I think of this?"
I don´t...

8. Yes, I am down on Rasheed Wallace, I never made it a secret. I was down on him before we signed him, why should I change my opinion, yet? Is it an american thing to always assume some sort of bias behind an argument that doesn´t fit your own?

The proof is in the pudding. If you want to, you can look through my 1220 posts to check how often I was right or wrong. I don´t go out and post definitive opinions on a message board if I´m not certain that I´m right. There are just as much topics where I have no clue what to say, you know what I do then? I simply shut my mouth.
That´s why I´m perfectly fine with sitting this out. Well, aside from the fact that I´ll have to see all the kool-aid drinkers setting themselves up for a major disappointment.

I am certainly not a simple "downer", otherwise I would´ve posted these things earlier. It´s not as if I clicked on this thread and said to myself "Well, today I will show everyone how much smarter I am. Yuppers, I´m fabulous".
I have serious concerns about the state of my favorite team. The fact that you assume it´s some kind of hidden agenda is exactly the kind of Shut-down argument that Celtics fans on other sites criticize CB for. Reminds me a lot of the great discussion on this board prior to the Rasheed signing, where every concerned post was answered with a bunch of Youtube videos to proof how awesome Sheed was in 2001.
It´s not me who wants to open this box again and again, I just show some serious allergic reactions to too much kool-aid.

The thing is, it sounds like you're just making up points to fit your argument. Rasheed hasn't been injured, for example, but somehow you wanna red flag him for something that MIGHT happen. KG's knee also MIGHT give out. Should we trade him? If you don't like Rasheed, fine, but when I say "being down on him", you make it ALMOST sound like you just want him to fail. You basically made two red flags out of the same exact thing (4 and 5). You made it look like you were biting more off than you could chew, and that always rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't matter if you're right, wrong, whatever, if you think you're right, you shouldn't feel the need to do that.

Same for saying "You're showing you don't trust someone already there.", even though in theory that person was already off the Celtics. If you're going to make points out of nothing, it's hard to take your stance seriously.

Oh and for the record, I hate half the trade proposals posted on this Blog.

[gustusias]

I have not read other replies but I do want to write that so far he is very slow afoot and getting back on defense, hardly rebounds, and misses most of his threes which are many.His defense on the post, one on one is very good as well as his offense one on one on the low post. His lack od speed and quickness does hurt our team defense when he is in there. I did expect more, not much more, but more, especially on the boards and from 3 point range.

[Casperian]

Casperian, if you're going to balk at having Sheed because he might get hurt, then we better get rid of the big 3 ASAP - they're on the wrong side of 30 and they might get hurt!

...

There's no way that should be considered a 'red flag', especially since you already addressed his age in your first point.  At most, it should simply be included there.

Fair enough.
His style of play is really "low-impact", which is an advantage. Unfortunately, we´re talking about the NBA here, athletes at the highest level. There´s a big difference between the body, motor and desire of a 31-year-old and a 36-year-old, and between a professional like Ray Allen, for example, and someone like Rashweed Wallace.

The thing is, it sounds like you're just making up points to fit your argument. Rasheed hasn't been injured, for example, but somehow you wanna red flag him for something that MIGHT happen. KG's knee also MIGHT give out. Should we trade him? If you don't like Rasheed, fine, but when I say "being down on him", you make it ALMOST sound like you just want him to fail. You basically made two red flags out of the same exact thing (4 and 5). You made it look like you were biting more off than you could chew, and that always rubs me the wrong way. It doesn't matter if you're right, wrong, whatever, if you think you're right, you shouldn't feel the need to do that.

Same for saying "You're showing you don't trust someone already there.", even though in theory that person was already off the Celtics. If you're going to make points out of nothing, it's hard to take your stance seriously.

Oh and for the record, I hate half the trade proposals posted on this Blog.

It wasn´t an internet-tactic, if that´s what you mean. I´ve simply made a long post because there are many little things wrong with this signing, imo. Many unanswered questions that people always ignore and that I do find pretty important.

As I said above, if you don´t think that health is an issue for a 36-year-old with a 3-year-contract, I don´t know what to say. We simply disagree. Minor injuries will start to catch up with anyone at that age.

"At some point over 30, guys don´t get healthy, they just get older". 

That´s more or less what Charles Barkley said last year, and it´s absolutely on point here, imo. The regenerational power of an average 30-year-old and and average 36-year-old are not comparable.

But you know what, there´s a reason why this is only point #5, and it´s only one sentence, and that is because I´ve added it after finishing the actual post, which took me an hour. I´ve figured I didn´t emphasize on my concerns about health enough.

And there´s a reason why I didn´t put a "red flag" behind the last three points, because these points are certainly arguable and depend on your opinion. I wanted to make an even longer list, because, as I´ve said, there are too many questions unanswered for me with this signing, but I´ve figured one hour has to be enough.

The other points, however, are definitive reasons to be concerned, imo.
I just can´t buy this as a good move, and certainly not as the big deal other fans made it out to be.

[snively]

If Sheed can get back up to 34-35% on 3s, we'll be fine.  He's been a mite slow on a few coverages, but for the most part he's been great.

[wiley]

The main reason I was concerned about shining Sheed (much preferring to sign McDyess and still bemoaning Powe's injury) was his big personality and ability to influence team chemistry with it.  I was also worried about Sheed and Doc not jiving, had trouble seeing Doc tolerate Sheed, etc....but maybe they're fine together....

I'm sure he's a great guy, but I wanted a smaller personality on this team.  Not leaving the refs alone is just one example. 

Teams who wait for the playoffs to turn on the urgency aren't normally bound for the championship imo....

Let's see if Baby can help bring some of that urgency back....

[wdleehi]

The main reason I was concerned about shining Sheed (much preferring to sign McDyess and still bemoaning Powe's injury) was his big personality and ability to influence team chemistry with it.  I was also worried about Sheed and Doc not jiving, had trouble seeing Doc tolerate Sheed, etc....but maybe they're fine together....

I'm sure he's a great guy, but I wanted a smaller personality on this team.  Not leaving the refs alone is just one example. 

Teams who wait for the playoffs to turn on the urgency aren't normally bound for the championship imo....

Let's see if Baby can help bring some of that urgency back....

Wallace is not killing this team.

Davis is not going to re-energize this team.





One of the leaders needs to step up and put some feet up some backsides and get this team going. 

[gar]

No need to have Sheed, Eddie, Ray and PP camping out on the 3 pt line. Need to mix it up. Sheed and Eddie are effective when Daniels and Shelden are attacking; but need more balance if we are going to play them in tandem with Ray and Paul.

[twinbree]

I have no problem with Sheed. I expected him to come in and do the same things he was doing in Detroit - provide length and defensive rebounding but little post play and offensive rebounding, be a good teammate, gun without conscience from 3, lead the league in techs and yell "ball don't lie" a few times every game. Basically what he's doing now.

[scoop]

I'm fine with Sheed. He provides a huge relief for KG off the bench, plays quality minutes and good D. Sure, his three pointers are not falling right own, and he takes many of them but overall they are good looks and I've seen him pass a few of them to make the extra pass these past few games.

He's got an impact that is not valuable with statistics only ; he stretches the floor on offense and gives us a good inside presence on D with the bench, so it's huge.

People who say Sheed isn't motivated and will quit the team in the playoffs don't know him. The guy is a competitor and I like his game (like when he went for a loose ball against Golden State, diving on the floor).

And I expect him to be much more efficient in the playoffs. Sheed is motivated but he likes to cruise during the season, and frankly, at 35 years old, I can't blame him since it will prevent him from getting injured or tired.

Sure, he is sometimes frustrating or annoying (the constant whining over the refs, the "whatever attitude") but so are all our players, they've got good and bad sides. Fortunately, they have more good than bad sides so we should feel pretty lucky.

Sheed hurts his team on defence more than he helps nowadays. He's still a good post defender - it's mostly about size and smarts -, but he isn't quick enough to show up on the pick'n'roll, he doesn't have the legs to cover perimeter bigs and he's a liability on the transition. He used to be a great help-defender - denying penetration, closing out on shooters - but those days are gone (they were already gone when he was still in Detroit). Even at his peak he was a bad rebounder, now he's horrid for a big man.

Wallace is playing lackadaisical ball, like he's often did during his long career. He's like 5th in the league in 3PA/FGA, while shooting triples at .282%. Even if he was shooting them as well as his best years in Detroit, he'd still be an inefficient scorer for a big man.

Right now Sheed is '08 PJ Brown without the rebounding, the mid-range game, while offering freebies with the technical fouls and taking away shots from more efficient players. He must change his shot-selection (his right hand hook used to be one of the bests in the league) and sooner rather than later.

[Kuberski33]

I thought signing Sheed was a great move at the time because - as another poster pointed out -- 7 footers that can drain the 3 cannot be guarded -- especially when they're surrounded with other offensive weapons.

However -- to date -- I'm with Casperian.  The Orlando game was the first time I saw him really working on the defensive end.  Granted its early, and Sheed probably isn't the main reason for the Celtics struggles.

But here's what I'm seeing....a team that is supposed to be one of the best defensive teams in the NBA...that now can't stop anyone. 

One of the reasons -- though definitely not the only one -- is Sheed either due to lack of effort, age or maybe just that he's struggling to learn a new defensive system.  Jury is still out on the reason.  But until the 2nd half of last night's game, I have not liked what I've seen out of him.

I'm not so worried about his shooting -- because the shot is always the last thing to go.

[moiso]

The thing that bugs me about Sheed taking so many 3's is that we have some great 3 point shooters who are taking far less Sheed.  House and Ray are two of the very best the league has to offer, and Paul is a very good 3 pt shooter.  Rasheed is probably slightly below the league average in percentage over his career, yet he jacks them up like he's Ray Allen.
I realize he's open more than the other guys because he's 6'11" but I'd still prefer to see Ray and Eddie taking more than Rasheed.  The offense should work to get the best shooters their best shots.  It's nice that Sheed is a tall guy who can shoot, but he's never going to shoot like Ray and Eddie.

[Casperian]

The thing that bugs me about Sheed taking so many 3's is that we have some great 3 point shooters who are taking far less Sheed.  House and Ray are two of the very best the league has to offer, and Paul is a very good 3 pt shooter.  Rasheed is probably slightly below the league average in percentage over his career, yet he jacks them up like he's Ray Allen.
I realize he's open more than the other guys because he's 6'11" but I'd still prefer to see Ray and Eddie taking more than Rasheed.  The offense should work to get the best shooters their best shots.  It's nice that Sheed is a tall guy who can shoot, but he's never going to shoot like Ray and Eddie.

Sheed is not a good 3-point-shooter, I don`t know why people keep saying that. He`s good for a big man, but you can`t call him a "specialist".

The argument that his average career 3pt% of 0.340 equals 0.510 on 2-pointers is irrelevant to the discussion.

Wallace shoots 22/75, or 0.282 from behind the arc so far, which puts him at #174 in the league overall.
Even if we assume that he´ll finish the season at his career average of 0.341, that would put him at #116 in 3pt%.

That means there are currently 115 players in the league who shoot better than his career average.

Some of these 115 players are only ahead of Wallace on the list because of a statistical fluke. They´ve made one or two shots that went in, but they are not relevant for the comparison.
So, for discussion´s sake, let´s say there are 90 players in the league who shoot better than Wallace`s career average and who can be considered to have the occasional 3-pointer in their regular offensive arsenal.

That means, even if he could be the Rasheed of 2001 and shoot it at his career average, there would still be on average 3 players on every NBA team that could shoot it at a better clip!

His raw numbers don´t matter, what is more important is his relative effectiveness, and that never justified the amount of 3s he takes, or better, is allowed to take.