I'm begining to dislike Rasheed as a Celtic.

[crownsy]

And i think the posey argument is right on point. Why would the posey contract, which would be for all intents an purposes the same contract at this point (MLE for 3 more years) not be an albatross but a contract of the same type for a better player is?

Because my assessment of James Posey is different to the majority of this blog.

When we discuss new signings like Sheed (or Marbury), people are quick to point out that playing for a contender could rejuvenate their game and that it´s about "more than just the numbers". When we discuss Posey, we look solely at numbers and forget his history. He played great for the Miami championship team, but disappeared in the following season (a contract season), which was the reason why we got him for peanuts in 2007.
We all know he played great for us in our championship season, even if it seems that most of us have already forgotten. Now he´s in the dog house, again.

Posey is what he is, a very versatile, tough role-player who plays the right way. He allowed us to play different units, and his skill set was a big reason why these units worked (see exhibit A: the 2008 bench). He is your typical "only valuable to a contender" player, he won´t go out of his way to take over games. Simply put, he plays as good as the rest of the team allows.
There is more (about tradability, dynamics on the court, etc.) but I really don´t have the time or desire to talk about Posey anymore.

Seriously, this isn´t about Pose, it´s about Sheed, and I think we should agree to disagree. Let´s just wait a few more games before we decide if he can still help us win a championship.

Thats what posey was, not what he is.

I love the man, he was and is one of my favroite players, but if you get to watch some NO games, he's not that guy anymore.

He plays good defense still, but his shooting has suffered, and he looks slow as molasses, which is saying something considering speed was never an asset.

I don't think the majority assessment of james posey on this blog was that he was a decent player at best or that he wasn't HUGE to the championship season. I think the assessment is he's an aging bench player who's resigning would have been a mistake, much as you claim sheed was.

So far, in NO, he's proving those like myself who took the "all power to james, love the man, but that's a terrible contract they;ll regret sooner rather than later" crowd had a point.

But agreeing to disagree on the assessment of the current player is fine with me. I just don't see how sheed's mid level deal can be such a huge mistake and albatross but posey's deal would have been a great move. It's the same deal, with the same tax implications, with (in theory) the same potential as a bargaining chip in two years. That's all i was using it for, comparison wise.

[guava_wrench]

I think it is easy to blow Sheed's 3's out of proportion. He has been solid overall.

[LB3533]

Sheed's numbers look awful right now. I think he's helped us win a couple games with his shooting, but most of his 3's have been tack on 3's when we were up big.

Maybe he hit a key 3 pointer in game, but I can't remember which game it was.

[ben]

Sheed's numbers look awful right now. I think he's helped us win a couple games with his shooting, but most of his 3's have been tack on 3's when we were up big.

Maybe he hit a key 3 pointer in game, but I can't remember which game it was.

He has been shooting allright.

  I have never understood what people mean by key 3 pointers.  A 3 pointer is a 3 pointer no matter when it happens.  I'm pretty sure Rasheed shoots it the same whether its a game winner, or practice.  No big deal, he'll be great even when the game is on the line. 

[Atzar]

Sheed's numbers look awful right now. I think he's helped us win a couple games with his shooting, but most of his 3's have been tack on 3's when we were up big.

Maybe he hit a key 3 pointer in game, but I can't remember which game it was.

He has been shooting allright.

  I have never understood what people mean by key 3 pointers.  A 3 pointer is a 3 pointer no matter when it happens.  I'm pretty sure Rasheed shoots it the same whether its a game winner, or practice.  No big deal, he'll be great even when the game is on the line. 

Not entirely true, in my opinion.  A key 3 pointer is one that you sink up 4 with a minute left, putting the game mostly out of reach.  A key 3 pointer is one that you nail to tie the game or take the lead within the last couple of minutes, giving your team a huge emotional lift.

[Casperian]

I´m sorry, crownsy, but that´s my last post on this topic for now. It´s becoming very tedious for me, since I´ve explained myself several times already in other threads.

The Posey-argument is not on point. Posey plays a different position, has a different character, you knew what you were going to get in this environment, so the investment makes more sense, he´s younger, could have played last season for us, and could be traded now if we didn´t like him anymore, unlike Sheed. And those are just the superficial reasons from the top off my head why the argument that we turned Posey into Sheed is not really on point, imo.
Posey´s current play may be a case in point for the nay-sayers, but you forget that the pro-Posey advocates don´t have a chance to "earn" any points in this discussion, since they have to argue from a completely abstract and non-existent POV. Hindsight is 20/20, but the move itself still would´ve been the right one, imo.

Most importantly, it distracts from the real topic.
Of course, if you don´t sign Posey for the MLE, you´re free to sign someone else for that money, it´s not exactly rocket science. Unfortunately, if you like this move or not solely depends on the player you get for that freed up money, and that´s where we disagree.

So we should focus on Sheed, and there are many reasons why this was a boneheaded move, imo, which I´ve explained several times in other threads, as I mentioned above.

1. His game is heading downwards for almost 3 years now. To give a player who is visibly on the decline a 3-year deal is irresponsible, imo. It´s red flag #1

2. He doesn´t show the mental focus or approach that you would like to see in your most important bench player. To be honest, he looks like the anti-thesis of a good role-player in the last games. If I read things like "I´m just glad that I´m almost done with this ****" (about the refs a few days ago), I have to ask myself if he doesn´t know that he´s signed a contract for over three years, which is anything else than "almost done". And this is not a single incident, that´s typical for Sheed for quite some time now. Red Flag #2

3. If you looked around the Internet at that time, and read a few Detroit message boards, you would have seen a large majority of Detroit fans who were happy that he joined the Celtics, of all teams. No matter how you slice or justify it, that´s never a good sign, especiially if you consider all the hype he got on Celtics-related message boards on the contrary. Red Flag #3

4. The Celtics were already too old without Sheed. If you look at the guys who actually played last season (not counting enhancement talents like Walker or Giddens), our average age was already over 30. Looking back at my 20 years of being a sports fan, I can´t remember a team with an average age over 30 winning the title, especially in a sport like basketball (or soccer, for that matter) which relies so heavily on athleticism, where the players are always in constant motion, where they have to play defense and offense and situations change so fast that it´s hard to even realize which situation you´re actually in at the moment. All things older players have problems with. Red Flag #4

5. Imjuries for a 36-year-old. Red Flag #5

6. The way we had to court him. That didn´t sound as if his heart was in it. More importantly, it gives him every power he wants. If he doesn´t like what he sees, he can quit and we can´t do anything about it. When we signed Marbury, at least we were able to put some pressure on him, since we could simply cut him. We can´t do that with Sheed.

7. Things like Group Dynamics and Hierarchies are a tricky beast. Again, looking around in the world, groups with too many leaders tend (more like, show a pattern) to struggle to achieve their respectiove goals. I would have rather seen one of our young starters step up and fill any void we might have had in the intangibles and leadership department.

8. Bringing someone in is always a sign that you don´t trust somebody else. If you´re not certain that this someone is better than the guy he replaces, you`re risking a lot of team chemistry and goodwill. You´ll play worse, you´ll have to eventually replace him with the guy he was supposed to replace, who is probably a bit miffed that you didn´t trust him. All things you don´t want to see on a championship bench.
Don´t get me wrong, I was all for bringing someone in, I just don´t think we brought someone in who´s better than what we already had. (This is certainly arguable and depends on your assessment of the player. But if your assessment is negative, it becomes a pretty important point).

Now, if I evaluate the Sheed and Posey-deals seperately and on their own merits, than it becomes obvious to me that there were at least 5 major red flags with the Sheed signing, and only one (his age) with the Posey-deal. Yes, the potential upside if it works out is bigger in Sheed´s case, but only one of the bombs has to explode to make it a mistake, which makes any potential gain moot, imo.

If you´re weighing the potential positives against the potential negatives of the deals at the time when they were signed, the Posey-deal would have been a way smarter and more responsible move than the Sheed-signing was, imho.

[steve]

That pretty much sums up Rasheed what the last guy wrote. 

The guy is a jerk.  A mic caught him asking a black ref "why are you letting that white boy foul me"  but we knew he was a jerk.

They signed him with the intent of getting him to care about winning again.  And the pro-rasheed crowd thought that the big 3 could do that.  I don't think it is too late.  I think if he does what PJ Brown did two years ago then it would be worth overpaying him.   

[LB3533]

I could live with Sheed shooting at 35% from three, but not 30 or 31 percent.

The Sheed is averaging a career low in MPG at 21 per and he's averaging a career high in 3PT attempts per game at 5.8 and shooting, in essence, a career low %.

Wallace's TS% and eFG% are higher than last year (crazy I know, when you factor in he shot better from the field and from 3 last season), the only reason his TS% and eFG% is higher this year is because he is making slightly more 3 pointers per game, but taking more attempts.

If Wallace averaged 36 mpg for us he'd be taking TEN 3's per game.

Wowzers!!!

That's surpasses the great Toine himself.

[LB3533]

Sheed's numbers look awful right now. I think he's helped us win a couple games with his shooting, but most of his 3's have been tack on 3's when we were up big.

Maybe he hit a key 3 pointer in game, but I can't remember which game it was.

He has been shooting allright.

  I have never understood what people mean by key 3 pointers.  A 3 pointer is a 3 pointer no matter when it happens.  I'm pretty sure Rasheed shoots it the same whether its a game winner, or practice.  No big deal, he'll be great even when the game is on the line. 

Some players do not shoot it the same when the game is on the line. Some players shoot worse. Some make the big shots and is considered clutch.

For Sheed, maybe he was clutch a few years ago...maybe. Right now, he ain't clutch, he ain't even a serviceable 3 point shooter.

 

[Tai]

I´m sorry, crownsy, but that´s my last post on this topic for now. It´s becoming very tedious for me, since I´ve explained myself several times already in other threads.

The Posey-argument is not on point. Posey plays a different position, has a different character, you knew what you were going to get in this environment, so the investment makes more snese, he´s younger, could have played last season for us, and could be traded now if we didn´t like him anymore, unlike Sheed. And those are just the superficial reasons from the top off my head why the argument that we turned Posey into Sheed is not really on point, imo.
Posey´s current play may be a case in point for the nay-sayers, but you forget that the pro-Posey advocates don´t have a chance to "earn" any points in this discussion, since they have to argue from a completely abstract and non-existent POV. Hindsight is 20/20, but the move itself still would´ve been the right one, imo.

Most importantly, it distracts from the real topic.
Of course, if you don´t sign Posey for the MLE, you´re free to sign someone else for that money, it´s not exactly rocket science. Unfortunately, if you like this move or not solely depends on the player you get for that freed up money, and that´s where we disagree.

So we should focus on Sheed, and there are many reasons why this was a boneheaded move, imo, which I´ve explained several times in other threads, as I mentioned above.

1. His game is heading downwards for almost 3 years now. To give a player who is visibly on the decline a 3-year deal is irresponsible, imo. It´s red flag #1

2. He doesn´t show the mental focus or approach that you would like to see in your most important bench player. To be honest, he looks like the anti-thesis of a good role-player in the last games. If I read things like "I´m just glad that I´m almost done with this ****" (about the refs a few days ago), I have to ask myself if he doesn´t know that he´s signed a contract for over three years, which is anything else than "almost done". And this is not a single incident, that´s typical for Sheed for quite some time now. Red Flag #2

3. If you looked around the Internet at that time, and read a few Detroit message boards, you would have seen a large majority of Detroit fans who were happy that he joined the Celtics, of all teams. No matter how you slice or justify it, that´s never a good sign, especiially if you consider all the hype he got on Celtics-related message boards on the contrary. Red Flag #3

4. The Celtics were already too old without Sheed. If you look at the guys who actually played last season (not counting enhancement talents like Walker or Giddens), our average age was already over 30. Looking back at my 20 years of being a sports fan, I can´t remember a team with an average age over 30 winning the title, especially in a sport like basketball (or soccer, for that matter) which relies so heavily on athleticism, where the players are always in constant motion, where they have to play defense and offense and situations change so fast that it´s hard to even realize which situation you´re actually in at the moment. All things older players have problems with. Red Flag #4

5. Imjuries for a 36-year-old. Red Flag #5

6. The way we had to court him. That didn´t sound as if his heart was in it. More importantly, it gives him every power he wants. If he doesn´t like what he sees, he can quit and we can´t do anything about it. When we signed Marbury, at least we were able to put some pressure on him, since we could simply cut him. We can´t do that with Sheed.

7. Things like Group Dynamics and Hierarchies are a tricky beast. Again, looking around in the world, groups with too many leaders tend (more like, show a pattern) to struggle to achieve their respectiove goals. I would have rather seen one of our young starters step up and fill any void we might have had in the intangibles and leadership department.

8. Bringing someone in is always a sign that you don´t trust somebody else. If you´re not certain that this someone is better than the guy he replaces, you`re risking a lot of team chemistry and goodwill. You´ll play worse, you´llll have to eventually replace him with the guy he was supposed to replace, who is probably a bit miffed that you didn´t trust him. All things you don´t want to see on a championship bench.
Don´t get me wrong, I was all for bringing someone in, I just don´t think we brought someone in who´s better than what we already had. (This is certainly arguable and depends on your assessment of the player. But if your assessment is negative, it becomes a pretty important point).

Now, if I evaluate the Sheed and Posey-deals seperately and on their own merits, than it becomes obvious to me that there were at least 5 major red flags with the Sheed signing, and only one (his age) with the Posey-deal. Yes, the potential upside if it works out is bigger in Sheed´s case, but only one of the bombs has to explode to make it a mistake, which makes any potential gain moot, imo.

If you´re weighing the potential positives against the potential negatives of the deals at the time when they were signed, the Posey-deal would have been a way more smarter and responsible move than the Sheed-signing was, imho.

 

You say it's tedious to repeat yourself, but I'm finding it tedious to find your point. As far as I'm concerned, #5 and #7 prove you're just being tacky. But I'll address you point by point.

#1 - Well, as it stands, he averaged 12 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 41.9% from the field and 35.4% from 3-pt land as a starter last year in an average of 32.2 minutes. As a Celtic and off the bench, he has 9.6 points, 3.4 rebounds, 40.6% from the field and 31.4% from 3-pt land in 21 minutes. That's not a huge drop off for someone who's right now playing 10 MPG less than he did last year. He's clearly not in his prime anymore, but that doesn't mean he's done.

#2 - So wait, he said this on-court or in a post-game conference? And, it was only about the refs, who seems to have given him hell for his whole career? I don't like it when he gets himself T'd up either. Also, considering Perkins said the practices haven't been going well, I question if Wallace is the only one who doesn't seem to have it mentally right now.

#3 - I'll say it again; Rasheed Wallace seems to have good stats for someone coming off the bench. I can't really say that I care what some Pistons fans care about, especially since for all I know they're basing it off the fact that Rasheed quit in the playoffs, like everyone else.

#4 - Just for the record, I guess you weren't high on Grant Hill, right? Cause don't look now, cause he doesn't look so bad for a 37 year old. Now, are you here to talk Celtics or a mix between psychology and health?

#5 - Injuries for a 36 year old? All I can think of is pre-season, and what's the point of playing him then if he's not 200% anyways? Did he not show up come the regular season opener in Cleveland?

#6 - The Celtics wanted to court him the way they did because they didn't want him getting on that plane to Orlando and San Antonio and possibly sign with them instead. Apparently, it worked.

 What do you mean his heart wasn't in it? His heart wasn't in playing in Boston as opposed to Orlando and San Antonio, that the Celtics kinda forced themselves on him? That he didn't wanna play ball period? Please elaborate.

#7 - I don't know if #7 is a piece out of a Management 200 lecture or what, but I coulda sworn you had a problem with Rasheed's age and how he was playing. I don't think you'd have a problem with saying we have a "Big 4" instead of a "Big 3" if Rasheed in your eyes was actually playing better.

#8 - I'm looking at this paragraph and am almost convinced you're simply down on Rasheed Wallace. You mind telling me the player we replaced Rasheed Wallace with? As far as I saw, the Celtics got Rasheed Wallace to improve their bench. The truth is, Casperian, that the closest player to Rasheed Wallace I can think of that was on the Celtics before him was either Posey, P.J Brown, or Powe. Either way, neither is as tall, and only Posey seems to even have his range. What's this about miffing the current players already on the team? What, you're talking about Robert Swift?

Sorry buddy, as tedious as you claim it was to re-state your argument, I think it flat out falls on it's face. And as far as I'm concerned, you just made up "Red Flags" 3-5. 2 is borderline, since I could argue as a team (which means everyone), the Celtics don't seem to have the mental focus we'd all desire. But for now, I'm willing to think Rasheed's kinda not there only because he's forced up so many 3's. The truth is, I'm only willing to give you #1 as a "Red Flag", but we don't know whether Rasheed was a terrible investment or not. It's not like he's done terrible; review the stats I posted. Besides, no one seems in love with what anyone's doing right now anyways except Pierce, Shelden Williams, and maybe Daniels.

Right now, I just see you as a downer on Rasheed.

[Tai]

Oh yeah, and with all due respect, it angers me that you actually think it was smarter to sign Posey solely on hindsight that didn't even come to favor him. Is that all you got? IMHO, I'm glad you're not the Celtics' GM...

[greenwise]

Sheed is doing fine, he is just shooting maybe a little too many 3pts but that's all. If he was making more nobody would complain. Same can be said about Eddie House and his current bad shooting crisis. Soon they will regain their consistency and threads like these will be a shadow, like many other threads.

[Casperian]

Right now, I just see you as a downer on Rasheed.

Yay for endless-posts.

1. Agree to disagree. 40% from a big man who quits in the playoffs is nowhere near acceptable.

2. Does it matter? As I´ve said, it´s the same old Sheed in a different jersey.

3. Shelden Williams also has great stats for someone coming off the bench. Do you think these things could be related?

4. What´s your point? Yes, I´m still against Grant Hill. His play in Phoenix is no indicator for how he would play here, and it certainly doesn´t debunk my argument that I´m concerned about an old team. One vet alone doesn´t make an old team.

5. Absolutely crazy to assume that a 36-year-old could have problems with injuries!  Sounds a lot like the talk I´ve heard before KG went down about how we could contend for the next 5 years.

6. Which would be fine by me.

7. Isn´t it funny how in the span of two month I went from "the biggest Ainge apologist" to "someone who gives managerial advice"? As if I wouldn´t be allowed to disagree with the decisions of the GM of my team. Noone on CB is allowed to.
Question: When you read a trade proposal on CB, do you think AInge reads it and thinks: "[dang], why didn´t I think of this?"
I don´t...

8. Yes, I am down on Rasheed Wallace, I never made it a secret. I was down on him before we signed him, why should I change my opinion, yet? Is it an american thing to always assume some sort of bias behind an argument that doesn´t fit your own?

The proof is in the pudding. If you want to, you can look through my 1220 posts to check how often I was right or wrong. I don´t go out and post definitive opinions on a message board if I´m not certain that I´m right. There are just as much topics where I have no clue what to say, you know what I do then? I simply shut my mouth.
That´s why I´m perfectly fine with sitting this out. Well, aside from the fact that I´ll have to see all the kool-aid drinkers setting themselves up for a major disappointment.

I am certainly not a simple "downer", otherwise I would´ve posted these things earlier. It´s not as if I clicked on this thread and said to myself "Well, today I will show everyone how much smarter I am. Yuppers, I´m fabulous".
I have serious concerns about the state of my favorite team. The fact that you assume it´s some kind of hidden agenda is exactly the kind of Shut-down argument that Celtics fans on other sites criticize CB for. Reminds me a lot of the great discussion on this board prior to the Rasheed signing, where every concerned post was answered with a bunch of Youtube videos to proof how awesome Sheed was in 2001.
It´s not me who wants to open this box again and again, I just show some serious allergic reactions to too much kool-aid.

[LB3533]

Can't compare Grant Hill to Wallace.

Hill's body doesn't have the NBA miles that Wallace has had.

There's a legit reason why Grant is playing really well this year and last, he's finally healthy for once and he hasn't had season after season of getting beaten down or worn down like Sheed has had.

Hill had 4 lost seasons out of 6 with the Magic. In those 4 lost years he managed to play only 68 games, that's maybe good for one full season. Sheed has missed only 33 games over the last 5 seasons with Detroit.

Eddie House is not shooting as bad as Sheed is shooting. In fact, Eddie is shooting a crisp 43% from 3 point land. That's +12% better than Sheed.

[Kiorrik]

Right now, I just see you as a downer on Rasheed.

Yay for endless-posts.

1. Agree to disagree. 40% from a big man who quits in the playoffs is nowhere near acceptable.

2. Does it matter? As I´ve said, it´s the same old Sheed in a different jersey.

3. Shelden Williams also has great stats for someone coming off the bench. Do you think these things could be related?

4. What´s your point? Yes, I´m still against Grant Hill. His play in Phoenix is no indicator for how he would play here, and it certainly doesn´t debunk my argument that I´m concerned about an old team. One vet alone doesn´t make an old team.

5. Absolutely crazy to assume that a 36-year-old could have problems with injuries!  Sounds a lot like the talk I´ve heard before KG went down about how we could contend for the next 5 years.

6. Which would be fine by me.

7. Isn´t it funny how in the span of two month I went from "the biggest Ainge apologist" to "someone who gives managerial advice"? As if I wouldn´t be allowed to disagree with the decisions of the GM of my team. Noone on CB is allowed to.
Question: When you read a trade proposal on CB, do you think AInge reads it and thinks: "[dang], why didn´t I think of this?"
I don´t...

8. Yes, I am down on Rasheed Wallace, I never made it a secret. I was down on him before we signed him, why should I change my opinion, yet? Is it an american thing to always assume some sort of bias behind an argument that doesn´t fit your own?

The proof is in the pudding. If you want to, you can look through my 1220 posts to check how often I was right or wrong. I don´t go out and post definitive opinions on a message board if I´m not certain that I´m right.
That´s why I´m perfectly fine with sitting this out. Well, aside from the fact that I´ll have to see all the kool-aid drinkers setting themselves up for a major disappointment.

I am certainly not a simple "downer", otherwise I would´ve posted these things earlier. It´s not as if I clicked on this thread and said to myself "Well, today I will show everyone how much smarter I am. Yuppers, I´m fabulous".
I have serious concerns about the state of my favorite team. The fact that you assume it´s some kind of hidden agenda is exactly the kind of Shut-down argument that Celtics fans on other sites criticize CB for. Reminds me a lot of the great discussion on this board prior to the Rasheed signing, where every concerned post was answered with a bunch of Youtube videos to proof how awesome Sheed was in 2001.
It´s not me who wants to open this box again and again, I just show some serious allergic reactions to too much kool-aid.

1219 posts. Don't oversell yourself.



(I know, you're going to reply with a simple "1220" )