"We DO/DON'T Want Allen Iverson" Thread (merged)

[wdleehi]

Didn't AI sign with a team where it was made clear he would come off the bench?



How did that work out? 

He says he's willing to come off the bench for a contender.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/62836/20091117/manager_iverson_still_wants_to_play/

That's great.

Before that he agreed to come off the bench of a bad team.  Lasted 3 games.

In the past (just about every season or changes teams) he promises to do the right thing.  Work with his teammates.  Practice.  Every year, misses practices.  Plays for himself.


There is a diffence between what AI says and what AI does.  It has gone on to long for anyone to trust what he says when it comes to basketball.

[Finkelskyhook]

The teams where this great "warrior" with the great "heart", "fire" "competitiveness" would fit best are Cleveland, LAL, and Orlando...

Let's pray he lands in one of those places.

The only place I'd be remotely scared to see his sorry act land is in San Antonio.  They wouldn't do it...But they have the organization in place from management to players who could possibly harness his talent into a team concept.

[nickagneta]

This is just a general statement to everyone, especially the guys on here who have all of the stars next to the names. If you dont like someone elses opinions maybe you should just let them expresss them and not try to tell everyone on the site how he or she is wrong. You never know, you may be the one who is wrong. Respect others opinions.

So, I guess I would be considered one of those guys that has a bunch of stars next to their names though I don't think I ever told anyone their opinion was wrong. I went back and read your opinion Celtic17 and I believe it is:

1.) There's little to no downside since if it doesn't work out just cut him.

2.) He is a great upgrade over what we have.

So, I just want to say that while you bare entitled to express your opinion, I am entitled to express mine that you might be wrong.

1.) The downside is potentially huge on many fronts. Rasheed has already seen what a divisive figure AI can be. He could easily start a fraction of the locker room as he turns players against Iverson. It could also alienate Rondo and cause him to fall way off on his game and effort if he feels that he is losing time to Iverson. House may also become angered over the move and decide to mail the season in and not re-up at a discount, if that was a possibility. Even after cutting Iverson, such wounds could kill the camaraderie on this team and ruin it for at least this post and off season causing the team to lose the championship.

Signing Iverson also means instantly waiving Hudson, Walker or Giddens. Either way the Celtics have their salary and lux tax payment on board for the year and then have to pay Iverson's salary and lux tax. If he doesn't work out and you cut him(because buying him out of getting a ring will be a lot harder, if not impossible, than buying him out of Memphis), now you have to pay two lux tax penalties and two salaries of players you no longer have at a cost of around, plus or minus, $4 million. That's not chump change.

3.) As an individual talent, he is better than anything we currently have on the bench in the back court. If this was a game of one on one I would want him on my team. But it's not. It's a game of 5 players on a team striving and sacrificing for the greater good. Iverson has never gotten that, even in his MVP caliber days. Oh, he's tough and he can score. But I would rather have Marquis Daniels running our offense on the second team and I would rather have Eddie House filling in the role of bench shooter and I would rather have Hudson fill the role of ball handling, defensive PG in case of emergency. Guys like this understand what it takes to play a role and the mindset it takes to fulfill that role to it's best. Iverson, in that regard is clueless.

Is Iverson a better basketball player and have better skills than those players I mentioned? Sure. Can he fill a role, have the right mindset, sacrifice his game and be a better Celtic than those other players, not even close.


Now, I'm not telling you your opinion is wrong and mine right. I'm not telling you you don't have the right to have or express your opinion. I just think I have a different opinion that is the polar opposite of your's. Hope that clarifies my stance. at the very least.

[Finkelskyhook]

So, I guess I would be considered one of those guys that has a bunch of stars next to their names

Nick, as somebody who agrees with you about half the time, I'd say that that bunch of stars is unequivocally earned.  Your posts are thoughtful and thought provoking without even a pretence of contenciousness.  If that was directed at you, it's laughably off-base.  Keep up the solid posts and articles.

The notion that Iverson is a better basketball player than anybody on our second team is at best, a reach.  He is grossly overrated.  Defensively he makes the butt of a lot of the defensive jokes in this blog, Dan Dickau, look like Gary Payton in his prime.  He might be a better scorer  than anybody on the second unit.  But I would contend that if any of the players on the second unit put up 30 shots a night, they'd  probably score at least 20ppg.....And our team would lose.  A very familiar result to the most overrated and cancerous player in NBA history.

[nickagneta]

So, I guess I would be considered one of those guys that has a bunch of stars next to their names

Nick, as somebody who agrees with you about half the time, I'd say that that bunch of stars is unequivocally earned.  Your posts are thoughtful and thought provoking without even a pretence of contenciousness.  If that was directed at you, it's laughably off-base.  Keep up the solid posts and articles.

The notion that Iverson is a better basketball player than anybody on our second team is at best, a reach.  He is grossly overrated.  Defensively he makes the butt of a lot of the defensive jokes in this blog, Dan Dickau, look like Gary Payton in his prime.  He might be a better scorer  than anybody on the second unit.  But I would contend that if any of the players on the second unit put up 30 shots a night, they'd  probably score at least 20ppg.....And our team would lose.  A very familiar result to the most overrated and cancerous player in NBA history.

TP for the kind words FSH. They are much appreciated and reciprocated.

[Roy Hobbs]

This is just a general statement to everyone, especially the guys on here who have all of the stars next to the names. If you dont like someone elses opinions maybe you should just let them expresss them and not try to tell everyone on the site how he or she is wrong. You never know, you may be the one who is wrong. Respect others opinions.

As the guy with the most stars next to his name (), I think that absolutely everyone is entitled to express an opinion.  I agree whole-heartedly that nobody should be mocked or attacked for an opinion, and I think the staff does a good job of making sure that doesn't happen.  If somebody is attacking you, for any reason, report their post to a moderator.

That being said, I disagree with the "ignore posts you disagree with" philosophy.  This blog is a community, based around the idea of discussing the Celtics.  Discussion is a two way street, with an exchange of ideas from multiple viewpoints.  Inevitably, people are going to disagree.  I have no interest in a blog where people simply post their own thoughts, and only respond to those who they agree with.

[cornbreadsmart]

I think the perfect fit for iverson is on the lakers. He'd get all the time he needed. They really only have odom as reliable(somewhat). walton is awful. farmar blah etc. etc.
     i think if he went to l.a. they would deserve to be called the favorites. I expect this to happen. It's the perfect fit. They need eachother. plus it adds to Phil's legacy of molding nutjobs.

[Hila]

I agree that the Lakers are a good fit if-- and this is a big if-- Iverson finally feels like he hit rock bottom, decides he doesn't want his career to end this way, and is open to moving into a supporting role.

I think what Iverson really needs is a certain kind of coach. He needs a coach who is secure in his own identity and employability, who has real power within his organization,  who is excellent at communicating with players, and who is skilled massaging all kinds of egos and personalities.

Iverson hasn't been coached by anyone like that during his downward skid. George Karl is talented in his way, but he throws his players under the bus on a constant basis (just ask Paul Pierce or Ray Allen). Michael Curry was an inexperienced coach in a lame duck situation trying to deal with a team that resented the loss of Chauncey Billups. And Iverson reports that in Memphis, his coach never even talked to him.

But John Thompson loved him and did well with him. Larry Brown loved him (even if he periodically wanted to kill him) and did well with him. Red Auerbach was sure he could have coached him and done well with him as long as he communicated well and assured Iverson that his coach had his back.

Phil Jackson could do it.

Gregg Popovich could do it.

So I'm hoping that if Iverson ends up on a contender, it's one of the Eastern ones, because Mike Brown and Stan Van Gundy would be disasters trying to handle him. Mike Brown serves at the pleasure of the King, who is the only real authority in Cleveland, and Stan Van Gundy can't even say anything nice about Dwight Howard, so he'd be helpless with a thin-skinned, past his prime Iverson.

And I do think Doc Rivers could manage Iverson as well. Whatever Doc's shortcomings as a coach might be, he's a great manager of personalities. But I'd stop short of saying I want Iverson on the Celtics without knowing exactly what's going on in that locker room and in Iverson's head.

[CoachBo]

Man, this software is acting up something fierce.

Re: the comments below. I couldn't agree with Nick more strongly. NO team at any level wins a championship without great chemistry, without the sum of the whole becoming greater than its parts.

And frankly, there's not an example in the history of Allen Iverson's illustrious career when he's been able to submit himself and his stats to a greater cause, such as a team title. While I do agree that the Celtics would be remiss if they failed to look at any talent they can add to the bench, they would be equally remiss if they don't look at the body of work of the player in question. Iverson's body of work as a piece of a champion simply doesn't exist, and his immediate history on quality teams is ugly.

I simply see no legitimate reason to give Iverson a look.

This is just a general statement to everyone, especially the guys on here who have all of the stars next to the names. If you dont like someone elses opinions maybe you should just let them expresss them and not try to tell everyone on the site how he or she is wrong. You never know, you may be the one who is wrong. Respect others opinions.

So, I guess I would be considered one of those guys that has a bunch of stars next to their names though I don't think I ever told anyone their opinion was wrong. I went back and read your opinion Celtic17 and I believe it is:

1.) There's little to no downside since if it doesn't work out just cut him.

2.) He is a great upgrade over what we have.

So, I just want to say that while you bare entitled to express your opinion, I am entitled to express mine that you might be wrong.

1.) The downside is potentially huge on many fronts. Rasheed has already seen what a divisive figure AI can be. He could easily start a fraction of the locker room as he turns players against Iverson. It could also alienate Rondo and cause him to fall way off on his game and effort if he feels that he is losing time to Iverson. House may also become angered over the move and decide to mail the season in and not re-up at a discount, if that was a possibility. Even after cutting Iverson, such wounds could kill the camaraderie on this team and ruin it for at least this post and off season causing the team to lose the championship.

Signing Iverson also means instantly waiving Hudson, Walker or Giddens. Either way the Celtics have their salary and lux tax payment on board for the year and then have to pay Iverson's salary and lux tax. If he doesn't work out and you cut him(because buying him out of getting a ring will be a lot harder, if not impossible, than buying him out of Memphis), now you have to pay two lux tax penalties and two salaries of players you no longer have at a cost of around, plus or minus, $4 million. That's not chump change.

3.) As an individual talent, he is better than anything we currently have on the bench in the back court. If this was a game of one on one I would want him on my team. But it's not. It's a game of 5 players on a team striving and sacrificing for the greater good. Iverson has never gotten that, even in his MVP caliber days. Oh, he's tough and he can score. But I would rather have Marquis Daniels running our offense on the second team and I would rather have Eddie House filling in the role of bench shooter and I would rather have Hudson fill the role of ball handling, defensive PG in case of emergency. Guys like this understand what it takes to play a role and the mindset it takes to fulfill that role to it's best. Iverson, in that regard is clueless.

Is Iverson a better basketball player and have better skills than those players I mentioned? Sure. Can he fill a role, have the right mindset, sacrifice his game and be a better Celtic than those other players, not even close.


Now, I'm not telling you your opinion is wrong and mine right. I'm not telling you you don't have the right to have or express your opinion. I just think I have a different opinion that is the polar opposite of your's. Hope that clarifies my stance. at the very least.

[moiso]

Great post Finkelskyhook.  So true about AI(even in his prime) making Dan Dickau look like Gary Payton.  And it wasn't for physical reasons.  He should have been able to play incredible defense against pg's.  So for me all that "warriar" stuff is nonsense.  He gave all his energy to the side of the court that gave him the most glory.
And Hila- the only coaches that got along with AI let him take as many shots as he wanted and didn't complain too much about his defense.

[GreenFaith1819]

I'm looking for either a "dislike" button or a way to take away a Tommy Point from the original poster. 

Does anyone know of a way to do either?

Why would anyone take a "TP" way from someone else if such an option was available? What would be the meaning by it?

[Kiorrik]

Just my little opinion here, on this topic. At this moment I have not got enough time to read everyone's thoughts, so forgive me if this seems redundant.

There's a lot of things one could say about Iverson. That he is a sure bet is not one of them. Whereas with Rasheed Wallace we knew we'd get a player that will at least show up for every game, this is not so much the case with AI. That alone makes me not want him.

Other than that, I believe our defense is our weakness right now. We're not showing great D, and bringing in AI will definitely not help. He's a scoring champ, and so far it's looked like we had more than enough power in that aspect of the game. More of a good thing isn't necessarily a bad thing, however when you trade it for something you haven't enough of in the first place, it is.

[jerrykid69]

Allen Iverson is a fat headed baby. He WAS a great player, but he is a bench player on good teams now....and he can't except that. No purpose in getting AI if he isn't willing to come off the pine.

[RAcker]

This whole thread is some of the most entertaining reading on CelticsBlog in a while. That doesn't mean that it was always the most intelligent, but it was fun.

[Schupac]

AI is a great player who refuses to play to his situation.  In other words, the best square peg to put into our team's round hole.  No thanks.  You want to start AI?  No team in this league wants you starting as their shoot-first guard.  Why would they invest 75% of their possessions in you when you only have a few years left?

I still think he has enough in the tank to be a very good player on a very good team.  Too bad he still thinks he has enough to be the best player on any team.