Suggestions to changing next year's CB NBA Draft to make it better.

[Roy Hobbs]

It's probably no surprise that the most fun draft, and the one with the fewest problems, was the one with the least rules and without voting.

Well I didn't participate in that but if that's the case, get rid of the voting and just let the 2K10 simulation determine the winner.

Yeah, and there was no real Commish, either.  Just me and CFF, flying by the seat of our pants.  In a lot of ways, it was a complete mess, but it was a lot of fun.

[nickagneta]

Guys, I didn't involved with this this year for a couple of reasons.

1) The bickering
2) The level of subjectivity involved in the competitive aspect of the game

And to no small degree the level of which #1 was brought on by #2.

You can tweak the rules this way or that, but at the root of it you need to accept that this game is based purely on opinion.  If you can't handle other people's opinions than you shouldn't get involved.  For me it wasn't the opinions so much as the lack of a tangible scoring system that didn't make sense, so I got out.  Roto and Fantasy teams make more sense to me, but if you can wrap your head around the limitations of this game there's no reason why you can't enjoy it for what it is.  If you can't, just play.

It is a subjective game but I think the rules really can be tweaked enough to remove as much of the strategic subjectivity out of it. Hence my suggestions.

Make the votes public but not viewable until after the voting deadline to remove the ability of people to effect voting through vote tabulation.

Take voting your team out of the equation. It will mean people can't effect their own outcome.

Increase the amount of commissioners to put a stop to unnecessary bickering.

More expansive written rules to come up with answers for as many potential outcomes and questions. This is a young game. NFL football 2010 didn't have their entire rulebook written in just a few seasons.

I'm sure there's more but if these kinks can be worked out, I think it can remove some of the not so great stuff and even get you back to the game Redz.

Honestly Nick, I think I'm just more of a stats guy, and would need to see how it plays out.  I think the process of drafting for 30 teams in and of itself is a fun process, but the concept of how you're supposed to find a winner after that doesn't make sense to me. Like I said, that's just me.

I think it would be cool if we have this draft and voting. Then before the season we find a cumulative fantasy place where we could load in all the teams and have the season play out and see at the end of the year who won.

Something like a point for every player on your team for every point, rebound, assist, steal, block, free throw made, FG made 3pt FG made. etc. 1 point taken away for every turnover, missed FT, missed FG, missed 3pt FG, etc.

No head to head competition during the year and putting out 5 players every night. Every play gains and subtracts from your total every night. At the end of March you seed playoffs based on total season points and then do one week competition versus your direct competitor for a week. And so on until you have a fantasy winner as well.

Incorporate both and let the fantasy numbers settle some of the subjective arguments. then you can have end of year voting for GM of the Year, MVP, Rookie of the Year, Surprise Team of the Year, Future Team of the Year, etc. Couple of weeks later it could start all over.

Ehh. Probably a dream.

Aren't we doing this already with the 2K9 thing? Did Hoyo already finish that or no?

Yeah but that's a computer's interpretation of what's to come. I'm talking making it into a season long fantasy game as well that will take into consideration real player development, real injuries, real scoring, etc.

Does 2k9 do that, if you simulated the season day-by-day?  I know at least one of the NBA games imports real injuries and some player development via automatic download.  You'd have to literally simulate the season on a day-by-day basis, though.

Not sure but I think it would be a cool way of seeing who made good draft picks based on injury anticipation, player development, intelligent drafting of rookies and as yet undeveloped 2nd and 3rd year pros, anticipation of age and game deterioration.

A game sim is good but is being put in the hands of past stats and a programmers opinion as to how things will progress. If we could find an ESPN or Yahoo basketball fantasy site we could manipulate to make the teams and run the season as a team cumulative rather than a selection of certain players and weekly matchups, people could follow their team year round online.

[Gainesville Celtic]

Guys, I didn't involved with this this year for a couple of reasons.

1) The bickering
2) The level of subjectivity involved in the competitive aspect of the game

And to no small degree the level of which #1 was brought on by #2.

You can tweak the rules this way or that, but at the root of it you need to accept that this game is based purely on opinion.  If you can't handle other people's opinions than you shouldn't get involved.  For me it wasn't the opinions so much as the lack of a tangible scoring system that didn't make sense, so I got out.  Roto and Fantasy teams make more sense to me, but if you can wrap your head around the limitations of this game there's no reason why you can't enjoy it for what it is.  If you can't, just play.

It is a subjective game but I think the rules really can be tweaked enough to remove as much of the strategic subjectivity out of it. Hence my suggestions.

Make the votes public but not viewable until after the voting deadline to remove the ability of people to effect voting through vote tabulation.

Take voting your team out of the equation. It will mean people can't effect their own outcome.

Increase the amount of commissioners to put a stop to unnecessary bickering.

More expansive written rules to come up with answers for as many potential outcomes and questions. This is a young game. NFL football 2010 didn't have their entire rulebook written in just a few seasons.

I'm sure there's more but if these kinks can be worked out, I think it can remove some of the not so great stuff and even get you back to the game Redz.

Its true that it's a young game, but I think the problems we had this year and last (i wasn't in it the first year) were folks taking it too seriously and not backing down when conflicts started. believe me, Celticsblog is certainly not the only place this happens 

I think the rules were the least of the problems --- but the easiest to correct, thus this thread.  The tweaks are generally doable and i don't worry much about them.

Getting folks to "treat thy neighbor... as they would be treated" when diff. people have a diff. concept of that is trickier.

my 2 cents (and I don't exempt myself from these.....):

(a) folks should (must?) accept Redz point about it being a completely subjective game (that doesn't mean you can't compete, but that we're competing in diff. ways? or that the joy is in competing not necessarily winning) and

(b) GMs should try to behave and police each other (off list when necessary) rather than escalating things. It shouldn't be that it's the commish's job to police everyone and all the GMs (or the 3-4 who had problems) just run wild. No one is gonna want to be commish obviously.

remember UBUNTU? "I can't be all I can be unless you're all you can be?"  we should all "be Ubuntu" during the draft, IMO.  

doesn't mean we can't razz folks, but you have to know when enough is enough, or who can take it, or if someone else is joking, nip things in the bud, agree to disagree, ask folks nicely to stop doing something if it's really affecting your ability to play/enjoy the game...etc. and yes i realize that "behave" is just about as subjective as the "winner" can be. 

like i said, just my 2 cents

Ubuntu, Y'all!

[Celtic Fan Forever]

It's probably no surprise that the most fun draft, and the one with the fewest problems, was the one with the least rules and without voting.

Well I didn't participate in that but if that's the case, get rid of the voting and just let the 2K10 simulation determine the winner.

Yeah, and there was no real Commish, either.  Just me and CFF, flying by the seat of our pants.  In a lot of ways, it was a complete mess, but it was a lot of fun.

That was the most difficult thing in the world, which is why I really applaud Dons for being able to handle this thing on his own. But don't forget Roy, Edgar and IP helped at times.

[Fafnir]

Man I'm always surprised how difficult simple things can become.

A ten minute rule, and picks during the day? I work retail I couldn't ever commit to being able to do that and do a good job. And I'm pretty [dang] active during work too. Plus the obvious strain that arguing about voting has caused.

This thread scared me off ever participating.

[Rondo2287]

Man I'm always surprised how difficult simple things can become.

A ten minute rule, and picks during the day? I work retail I couldn't ever commit to being able to do that and do a good job. And I'm pretty [dang] active during work too. Plus the obvious strain that arguing about voting has caused.

This thread scared me off ever participating.

Well if you ever wanna be an assistant GM you can, its basically enjoying the process of putting a team together and drafting without having to be here for every draft pick.  Trust me, we can accomodate everyone into this draft as long as they want to participate

[JSD]

1. Draft or inherit coaching staffs
2. Every team gets two votes

[Rondo2287]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

[Fafnir]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

Some teams have two GMs right? Why should one team get more say in the league because they had another person help with the draft.

[Kwhit10]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

Since some teams have asst./co GMs which is like 2 votes.

[Rondo2287]

Right, but since it is open to the public anybody could vote, not just GM's.  I dont see the big deal

[Roy Hobbs]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

Some teams have two GMs right? Why should one team get more say in the league because they had another person help with the draft.

What's the difference between that, and people from outside the draft who vote?  Personally, I think every member of the blog should be allowed to vote equally.  If people want assistant GMs, they should get them.

The only way "one team, one vote" (or one team, two votes) works is if you don't let outsiders vote at all, I think.

Also, if you look at the votes coming from Orlando and Portland (when they had two GMs) you'll see that their votes are wildly divergent.

[Fafnir]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

Some teams have two GMs right? Why should one team get more say in the league because they had another person help with the draft.

What's the difference between that, and people from outside the draft who vote?  Personally, I think every member of the blog should be allowed to vote equally.  If people want assistant GMs, they should get them.

The only way "one team, one vote" (or one team, two votes) works is if you don't let outsiders vote at all, I think.

Also, if you look at the votes coming from Orlando and Portland (when they had two GMs) you'll see that their votes are wildly divergent.

Fair enough, assuming everyone is acting in good faith. Which is the only way to run a game like this.

[Kwhit10]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

Some teams have two GMs right? Why should one team get more say in the league because they had another person help with the draft.

What's the difference between that, and people from outside the draft who vote?  Personally, I think every member of the blog should be allowed to vote equally.  If people want assistant GMs, they should get them.

The only way "one team, one vote" (or one team, two votes) works is if you don't let outsiders vote at all, I think.

Also, if you look at the votes coming from Orlando and Portland (when they had two GMs) you'll see that their votes are wildly divergent.

GMs from one team are more likely to vote their own team highest.  I don't think bringing up people from outside this experiment makes any difference to having two GMs from he same team vote.  It is a given they will like their own team (of course highest of all compared to other people); while it is not given outsiders would have any allegiance to any given team.

[Roy Hobbs]

Can I ask the reasoning behind the two votes thing?

Some teams have two GMs right? Why should one team get more say in the league because they had another person help with the draft.

What's the difference between that, and people from outside the draft who vote?  Personally, I think every member of the blog should be allowed to vote equally.  If people want assistant GMs, they should get them.

The only way "one team, one vote" (or one team, two votes) works is if you don't let outsiders vote at all, I think.

Also, if you look at the votes coming from Orlando and Portland (when they had two GMs) you'll see that their votes are wildly divergent.

Fair enough, assuming everyone is acting in good faith. Which is the only way to run a game like this.

I absolutely agree.  I think you have to vote objectively, rather than for your friends.  That's why I had to vote against IP, even though he's one of my closest blog compatriots.  It sucked royally, but I thought it was what had to be done.