BBD vs. David Lee

[Fafnir]

This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

I stand corrected. I do still feel that David Lee is over rated and is a role player at best. Not worth 10 million a year.

Well I guess this what I was trying to say about David Lee: Charley Rosen
"Let's start with Lee: He always hustles and relentlessly attacks both boards. But he can't shoot. His offense consists of elementary drop-steps. And he can't defend.

Also, the Knicks' barely controlled chaos generates more scoring opportunities for Lee than he'd find on a more disciplined ball club. For him to be a starter with a legitimate team, Lee would need to play beside a shot-blocking big man who would also need to be double-teamed whenever he received the ball in the pivot.

In other words, Lee is strictly a very limited role player. A 20-minute-a-game player off the bench for an excellent team. As such, he's not nearly worth the humongous contract that he has been seeking."

Considering that Rosen also goes after KG in a ridiculous manner in that same article I don't think he's the best person to frame your argument for you.

[mgent]

This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

I stand corrected. I do still feel that David Lee is over rated and is a role player at best. Not worth 10 million a year.

Well I guess this what I was trying to say about David Lee: Charley Rosen
"Let's start with Lee: He always hustles and relentlessly attacks both boards. But he can't shoot. His offense consists of elementary drop-steps. And he can't defend.

Also, the Knicks' barely controlled chaos generates more scoring opportunities for Lee than he'd find on a more disciplined ball club. For him to be a starter with a legitimate team, Lee would need to play beside a shot-blocking big man who would also need to be double-teamed whenever he received the ball in the pivot.

In other words, Lee is strictly a very limited role player. A 20-minute-a-game player off the bench for an excellent team. As such, he's not nearly worth the humongous contract that he has been seeking."

Yeah well, Davis can't defend too well either, and doesn't have much post game.  The difference is, Lee is a WAY better rebounder, and that's what this team needs.

[RAcker]

Ditto to the rebounding comments above.  In other words, maybe Glen would get a new nickname if he rebounded more like Lee.

[Fafnir]

This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

I stand corrected. I do still feel that David Lee is over rated and is a role player at best. Not worth 10 million a year.

Well I guess this what I was trying to say about David Lee: Charley Rosen
"Let's start with Lee: He always hustles and relentlessly attacks both boards. But he can't shoot. His offense consists of elementary drop-steps. And he can't defend.

Also, the Knicks' barely controlled chaos generates more scoring opportunities for Lee than he'd find on a more disciplined ball club. For him to be a starter with a legitimate team, Lee would need to play beside a shot-blocking big man who would also need to be double-teamed whenever he received the ball in the pivot.

In other words, Lee is strictly a very limited role player. A 20-minute-a-game player off the bench for an excellent team. As such, he's not nearly worth the humongous contract that he has been seeking."

Yeah well, Davis can't defend too well either, and doesn't have much post game.  The difference is, Lee is a WAY better rebounder, and that's what this team needs.

Not really, not if KG is healthy.

We were the best rebounding team in the league by a healthy margin with KG in the lineup.

[Spilling Green Dye]

I wouldn't be so sure.  You'd probably say the same thing if he was coming off his second knee surgery.  And he proved people wrong. 

But I think Powe's beside the point.  I just think that all Baby really offers to this team in games that matter is an insurance policy.  In a close game, KG, Perk, and Wallace are all going to play north of 30 mpg, leaving virtually zero minutes for BBD.  If he averages 15 mpg next year, it'll only be because the C's have blown out so many teams that KG, Perk, and Wallace came out early.  And if it's a blow out, who cares who is out there? 

Would Baby be nice if someone goes down?  Sure.  But only in certain circumstances.  If KG goes down for the season again, Baby isn't going to matter.  If he goes down for 10 games, this team is good enough that it can win some regular season games with pretty much anyone on the bench (see last season). 

Would he be useful if Perk or Wallace went down?  Sure.  But again, only if it was in the playoffs or if it was long term.  If it's a 10 game thing, they can get by with anybody. 

So that begs the question, is it worth paying 4-5 million, or even as low as 3 million, for a guy who is really only going to be of use if someone gets hurt?  Or would it be more useful to try to trade him for something more valuable like a backup PG or a backup 2/3 that's even better than Daniels?  I tend to think the latter. 

Because I also don't see him holding value here.  If he's going to play sparse minutes, his value is going to plummet, and the C's won't be able to trade him.  And it's pretty much useless to stash him for the future: he'll never be a starter on a contender.  So why stash a guy who at best might be the first big off the bench?  That role can be filled down the road after the Big Three are gone. 

So I'll grant you that Powe may not be the answer, but I do think the C's might be better off dealing Baby for a backup 1, 2, or 3, then signing someone like Joe Smith at the LLE.  He'd give good insurance and could fill in those spare 10 mpg about as effectively as Baby. 
[/quote]

Amen.  In fact, I'm quite certain they'd be better of dealing BBD. I would love to see a big man with some semblence of a post game on the 2nd / 3rd unit.  It would help free up Eddie, etc.

[liam]

This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

I stand corrected. I do still feel that David Lee is over rated and is a role player at best. Not worth 10 million a year.

Well I guess this what I was trying to say about David Lee: Charley Rosen
"Let's start with Lee: He always hustles and relentlessly attacks both boards. But he can't shoot. His offense consists of elementary drop-steps. And he can't defend.

Also, the Knicks' barely controlled chaos generates more scoring opportunities for Lee than he'd find on a more disciplined ball club. For him to be a starter with a legitimate team, Lee would need to play beside a shot-blocking big man who would also need to be double-teamed whenever he received the ball in the pivot.

In other words, Lee is strictly a very limited role player. A 20-minute-a-game player off the bench for an excellent team. As such, he's not nearly worth the humongous contract that he has been seeking."

Yeah well, Davis can't defend too well either, and doesn't have much post game.  The difference is, Lee is a WAY better rebounder, and that's what this team needs.

Good stats on a bad team. I'm not that high on Lee.

[mgent]

I wouldn't be so sure.  You'd probably say the same thing if he was coming off his second knee surgery.  And he proved people wrong. 

But I think Powe's beside the point.  I just think that all Baby really offers to this team in games that matter is an insurance policy.  In a close game, KG, Perk, and Wallace are all going to play north of 30 mpg, leaving virtually zero minutes for BBD.  If he averages 15 mpg next year, it'll only be because the C's have blown out so many teams that KG, Perk, and Wallace came out early.  And if it's a blow out, who cares who is out there? 

Would Baby be nice if someone goes down?  Sure.  But only in certain circumstances.  If KG goes down for the season again, Baby isn't going to matter.  If he goes down for 10 games, this team is good enough that it can win some regular season games with pretty much anyone on the bench (see last season). 

Would he be useful if Perk or Wallace went down?  Sure.  But again, only if it was in the playoffs or if it was long term.  If it's a 10 game thing, they can get by with anybody. 

So that begs the question, is it worth paying 4-5 million, or even as low as 3 million, for a guy who is really only going to be of use if someone gets hurt?  Or would it be more useful to try to trade him for something more valuable like a backup PG or a backup 2/3 that's even better than Daniels?  I tend to think the latter. 

Because I also don't see him holding value here.  If he's going to play sparse minutes, his value is going to plummet, and the C's won't be able to trade him.  And it's pretty much useless to stash him for the future: he'll never be a starter on a contender.  So why stash a guy who at best might be the first big off the bench?  That role can be filled down the road after the Big Three are gone. 

So I'll grant you that Powe may not be the answer, but I do think the C's might be better off dealing Baby for a backup 1, 2, or 3, then signing someone like Joe Smith at the LLE.  He'd give good insurance and could fill in those spare 10 mpg about as effectively as Baby. 

Amen.  In fact, I'm quite certain they'd be better of dealing BBD. I would love to see a big man with some semblence of a post game on the 2nd / 3rd unit.  It would help free up Eddie, etc.
[/quote]
Davis has bad stats on a good team.  How is that any different?